Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, the Godzilla anime trilogy and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Gerdzerl » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:20 am

tbeasley wrote:http://i47.tinypic.com/20zvg2r.jpg
:?:


Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.

Sorta like this, but to a more extreme degree: Image

Tetrapod evolution in real life:
Image

Whale evolution from land-dwellers to sea-dwellers:
Image
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:41 am

tbeasley wrote:[imghttp://i47.tinypic.com/20zvg2r.jpg[/img
:?:

Where did you find that? Thats interesting, so Shin's first form must of been something similar to that more fish like one.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Godzillian » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:26 am

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
tbeasley wrote:[imghttp://i47.tinypic.com/20zvg2r.jpg[/img
:?:

Where did you find that? Thats interesting, so Shin's first form must of been something similar to that more fish like one.

Its from the final issue of the Dark Horse comics when two scientists are discussing the possible origin of Godzilla. The panel posted is only a theory and even admitted to have holes in it by the scientists
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby HeiseiGodzilla117 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:41 am

Godzillian wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
tbeasley wrote:[imghttp://i47.tinypic.com/20zvg2r.jpg[/img
:?:

Where did you find that? Thats interesting, so Shin's first form must of been something similar to that more fish like one.

Its from the final issue of the Dark Horse comics when two scientists are discussing the possible origin of Godzilla. The panel posted is only a theory and even admitted to have holes in it by the scientists


Yeah, it doesn't mean much. I'm pretty sure one of the Bagorah issues features a Godzilla flashback millions of years ago when he's surrounded by dinosaurs. So we could infer from that he's been relatively unchanged for millions of years.

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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Monster X » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:47 am

You know People cretic the small arms and such but really his entire body plan and power set make sense when you think about it. Shin's sole enemy in its existance is mankind and our weapons. Its power are geared to counter our attacks. Its never had to fight a kaiju befor, if it did then it would likely adapt accordingly.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Inferno Rodan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:32 am

Gerdzerl wrote:Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.

You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Gerdzerl » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:18 am

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Gerdzerl wrote:Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.

You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.

Fair enough. Overthinking is part of the fun for me, though, as I find kaiju science incredibly interesting.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Gawdziller1954 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:44 pm

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Gerdzerl wrote:Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.

You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.

It probably is coincidental, unless it's a deliberate reference to Dakosaurus, which, if you have forgotten, was dubbed "Godzilla" due to it's massive jaws. The more I look at it though, the more it looks like the Pliosaur Maelstrom from Ice-Age 2.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Dawsbfiremind » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:43 pm

Gerdzerl wrote:
Inferno Rodan wrote:You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.

Fair enough. Overthinking is part of the fun for me, though, as I find kaiju science incredibly interesting.


Well there's overthinkers and underthinkers, and this fandom has equal amounts of both to balance each other out. You go in depth as to what Shingoji is, and I just think he's Godzilla.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby tbeasley » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:18 pm

I know you should always take certain Wikis with a grain of salt but I was poking around in one and this caught my attention...
http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla_(SG)#Future_evolutions
According to The Art of Shin Godzilla and several other official publications, the fourth form was merely a beginning ("baby") and Godzilla would continue to evolve. Future forms and consequences of this have been noted, and it was pointed that extinction on the subcellular scale is necessary to defeat Godzilla.

These include the below aspects:
◾Fifth Form
◾Acquire flight ability.
◾Self-division without limits to eventually cover the whole of Earth.
◾Divided forms may shrink in size and form a legion.
◾Become immune to the Yashiori Plan.
◾Lose algesia (sensitivity to pain) and emotions.
◾Self-generation of a completed form from a tiniest fragment of the body.

◾Sixth Form
◾Overcoming requirements of air and water to survive.
◾Will achieve self energy productions.
◾Achieving limitless nuclear fusions and overcome energy problems.
◾Degeneration of the mouth and teeth. Will eventually lose these organs.
◾Will eventually invade outer space and reach other planets.

◾Seventh Form
◾Contains a small universe within its body.
◾Synthesizing any materials and elements at will and make them its own.
◾Adapt to harsh environments of any planets.

◾Eighth Form
◾Transcending physical law and reaching the "level of GOD" (and Immortality).


Especially this...
Interestingly, it was revealed in 2012 that a memo named Shin Godzilla was left by Ishiro Honda; he was planning to create a Godzilla to self-divide, and coalesce enemies and grow larger, enabling aerification and solidification, and become inanimate.


The sources link to Japanese sites and Twitter so is there any merit to this... ?
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:15 pm

Zarm wrote:I don't buy the 'song represents Godzilla's actual emotions' bit. Even if it is so, that is (to me) a tremendously awful and lazy idea (seriously- in Final Wars, is Zilla feeling deeply regretful for the actions of his species causing him to lose everything because a snippet of 'We're All To Blame' is played?)


No, of course not. None of the other music from any other movie is from Godzilla's point of view, but the lyrics of Who Will Know make it clear that it is, just as the lyrics of Persecution of the Masses are about the suffering of Godzilla's victims, and Defeat Is No Option is about the Japanese government's struggle to keep fighting after the JSDF's failure.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:28 pm

tbeasley wrote:I know you should always take certain Wikis with a grain of salt but I was poking around in one and this caught my attention...
http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla_(SG)#Future_evolutions
According to The Art of Shin Godzilla and several other official publications, the fourth form was merely a beginning ("baby") and Godzilla would continue to evolve. Future forms and consequences of this have been noted, and it was pointed that extinction on the subcellular scale is necessary to defeat Godzilla.

These include the below aspects:
◾Fifth Form
◾Acquire flight ability.
◾Self-division without limits to eventually cover the whole of Earth.
◾Divided forms may shrink in size and form a legion.
◾Become immune to the Yashiori Plan.
◾Lose algesia (sensitivity to pain) and emotions.
◾Self-generation of a completed form from a tiniest fragment of the body.

◾Sixth Form
◾Overcoming requirements of air and water to survive.
◾Will achieve self energy productions.
◾Achieving limitless nuclear fusions and overcome energy problems.
◾Degeneration of the mouth and teeth. Will eventually lose these organs.
◾Will eventually invade outer space and reach other planets.

◾Seventh Form
◾Contains a small universe within its body.
◾Synthesizing any materials and elements at will and make them its own.
◾Adapt to harsh environments of any planets.

◾Eighth Form
◾Transcending physical law and reaching the "level of GOD" (and Immortality).


Especially this...
Interestingly, it was revealed in 2012 that a memo named Shin Godzilla was left by Ishiro Honda; he was planning to create a Godzilla to self-divide, and coalesce enemies and grow larger, enabling aerification and solidification, and become inanimate.


The sources link to Japanese sites and Twitter so is there any merit to this... ?

:freak: Uh, to be honest I hope most of those things aren't real.... I mean "a small universe within its body"? I'm certain those are fanmade. Toxic waste can only do so much. Unless Toho wants Godzilla to be the most powerful fictional character in history.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Zarm » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:35 pm

Cybermat47 wrote:No, of course not. None of the other music from any other movie is from Godzilla's point of view, but the lyrics of Who Will Know make it clear that it is, just as the lyrics of Persecution of the Masses are about the suffering of Godzilla's victims, and Defeat Is No Option is about the Japanese government's struggle to keep fighting after the JSDF's failure.


I think that's my issue. What 'makes it clear' as opposed to 'can be interpreted that way if one is so inclined' (which, based on past lack of precedent and no clear indicators in the movie, I would not be)?
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Cybermat47 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:17 pm

Zarm wrote:
Cybermat47 wrote:No, of course not. None of the other music from any other movie is from Godzilla's point of view, but the lyrics of Who Will Know make it clear that it is, just as the lyrics of Persecution of the Masses are about the suffering of Godzilla's victims, and Defeat Is No Option is about the Japanese government's struggle to keep fighting after the JSDF's failure.


I think that's my issue. What 'makes it clear' as opposed to 'can be interpreted that way if one is so inclined' (which, based on past lack of precedent and no clear indicators in the movie, I would not be)?


I agree that it's unclear in the movie, as it's hard to hear the actual words that the song is saying (even more so if you're the target audience, seeing as the words are in English), but once you read the lyrics, it becomes clear what the music is about.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby GodzillaBurgh » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:47 pm

Another reason to love Shin Godzilla. It's a Godzilla movie that provokes many thoughts & ideals on the mystery of Godzilla itself. And, in my opinion, the best example of the term GOD in GODZILLA.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Gawdziller1954 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:28 pm

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
tbeasley wrote:I know you should always take certain Wikis with a grain of salt but I was poking around in one and this caught my attention...
http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla_(SG)#Future_evolutions
According to The Art of Shin Godzilla and several other official publications, the fourth form was merely a beginning ("baby") and Godzilla would continue to evolve. Future forms and consequences of this have been noted, and it was pointed that extinction on the subcellular scale is necessary to defeat Godzilla.

These include the below aspects:
◾Fifth Form
◾Acquire flight ability.
◾Self-division without limits to eventually cover the whole of Earth.
◾Divided forms may shrink in size and form a legion.
◾Become immune to the Yashiori Plan.
◾Lose algesia (sensitivity to pain) and emotions.
◾Self-generation of a completed form from a tiniest fragment of the body.

◾Sixth Form
◾Overcoming requirements of air and water to survive.
◾Will achieve self energy productions.
◾Achieving limitless nuclear fusions and overcome energy problems.
◾Degeneration of the mouth and teeth. Will eventually lose these organs.
◾Will eventually invade outer space and reach other planets.

◾Seventh Form
◾Contains a small universe within its body.
◾Synthesizing any materials and elements at will and make them its own.
◾Adapt to harsh environments of any planets.

◾Eighth Form
◾Transcending physical law and reaching the "level of GOD" (and Immortality).


Especially this...
Interestingly, it was revealed in 2012 that a memo named Shin Godzilla was left by Ishiro Honda; he was planning to create a Godzilla to self-divide, and coalesce enemies and grow larger, enabling aerification and solidification, and become inanimate.


The sources link to Japanese sites and Twitter so is there any merit to this... ?

:freak: Uh, to be honest I hope most of those things aren't real.... I mean "a small universe within its body"? I'm certain those are fanmade. Toxic waste can only do so much. Unless Toho wants Godzilla to be the most powerful fictional character in history.

Wouldn't doubt that it's canon, considering who made the film...
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:35 pm

Nothing of that seems out of the ordinary for Anno, but it makes sequels really skreeonking hard to make. There's support for whatever is said there given the flight was hunted at, and the legion idea was actually seen on screen.

In terms of the actual idea that all this came from some toxic substance, while it's totally far fetched, it's insanely mysterious and adds an element of fear from something so random having such an impact. It also adds the idea of other Kaiju coming from the liquid or substance. The legion stuff also allows for part of the beast to go rogue.
The space idea can have earth send the remains of Shin Gojira to space, only for it to return in the far future.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby GIGAN05 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:32 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote: The space idea can have earth send the remains of Shin Gojira to space, only for it to return in the far future.

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Be careful for what you wish for :P.
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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby HeiseiGodzilla117 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:14 pm

All that stuff lines up with the content Anno usually produces, so I wouldn't be shocked if there is truth to it. But it's just more stuff to make me not enjoy this take on Godzilla. If Shin breaks into a bit bunch of shinlets or turns into an amorphous space blob, it's really not Godzilla anymore.

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Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Postby Cybermat47 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:55 am

LSD Jellyfish wrote:Nothing of that seems out of the ordinary for Anno, but it makes sequels really skreeonking hard to make.


HeiseiGodzilla117 wrote:If Shin breaks into a bit bunch of shinlets or turns into an amorphous space blob, it's really not Godzilla anymore.


Hideaki Anno seems to agree with you.

“I'm good. It'd be more interesting if they changed directors. Toho won't let me do it. There'd be a lot of difficulties."

http://www.godzilla-movies.com/news/hideaki-anno-unlikely-to-return-for-shin-godzilla-2#ixzz4tJVVosZW
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