Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, Godzilla -1.0, the anime trilogy, Godzilla Singular Point and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.
User avatar
Gerdzerl
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3474
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:16 pm
Location: Inside an 80's neon space station in high orbit
Contact:

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Gerdzerl »

Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.

Sorta like this, but to a more extreme degree: Image

Tetrapod evolution in real life:
Image

Whale evolution from land-dwellers to sea-dwellers:
Image
Last edited by Gerdzerl on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
MechaGoji Bro7503
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6117
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:02 pm
Location: Black Hole Planet 3 branch of Majima Construction.
Contact:

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by MechaGoji Bro7503 »

tbeasley wrote:[imghttp://i47.tinypic.com/20zvg2r.jpg[/img
:?:
Where did you find that? Thats interesting, so Shin's first form must of been something similar to that more fish like one.
"Bang on, mate.", - Murdoc Niccals 2018.

"Right, wrong... Nobody's got a clue what the difference is in this town. So I'm gonna have more fun... and live crazier than any of 'em." - Goro Majima.

Our G-Force a Kaiju Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/g ... 1509725595

For unique discussions on Ultraman, Godzilla, and much more check out my channel Tiger Drop Films: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCng0uL ... VCg/videos

User avatar
Godzillian
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5789
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Godzillian »

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
tbeasley wrote:[imghttp://i47.tinypic.com/20zvg2r.jpg[/img
:?:
Where did you find that? Thats interesting, so Shin's first form must of been something similar to that more fish like one.
Its from the final issue of the Dark Horse comics when two scientists are discussing the possible origin of Godzilla. The panel posted is only a theory and even admitted to have holes in it by the scientists
Image

User avatar
HeiseiGodzilla117
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5921
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:20 pm

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by HeiseiGodzilla117 »

Godzillian wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
tbeasley wrote:[imghttp://i47.tinypic.com/20zvg2r.jpg[/img
:?:
Where did you find that? Thats interesting, so Shin's first form must of been something similar to that more fish like one.
Its from the final issue of the Dark Horse comics when two scientists are discussing the possible origin of Godzilla. The panel posted is only a theory and even admitted to have holes in it by the scientists
Yeah, it doesn't mean much. I'm pretty sure one of the Bagorah issues features a Godzilla flashback millions of years ago when he's surrounded by dinosaurs. So we could infer from that he's been relatively unchanged for millions of years.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

User avatar
Monster X
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Monster X »

You know People cretic the small arms and such but really his entire body plan and power set make sense when you think about it. Shin's sole enemy in its existance is mankind and our weapons. Its power are geared to counter our attacks. Its never had to fight a kaiju befor, if it did then it would likely adapt accordingly.
Last edited by Monster X on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Inferno Rodan
Futurian
Posts: 3985
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Azur Lane

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Gerdzerl wrote:Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.
You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

User avatar
Gerdzerl
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3474
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:16 pm
Location: Inside an 80's neon space station in high orbit
Contact:

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Gerdzerl »

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Gerdzerl wrote:Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.
You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.
Fair enough. Overthinking is part of the fun for me, though, as I find kaiju science incredibly interesting.
Last edited by Gerdzerl on Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gawdziller1954
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1060
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:29 pm
Location: Painis Island

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Gawdziller1954 »

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Gerdzerl wrote:Interesting! I guess this would potentially imply that Godzilla isn't actually a reptile (or even a tetrapod for that matter) if his ancestors originated from the sea first and he's a "sea animal becoming a land animal" and not a "land animal becoming a sea animal" like real tetrapods. After all, reptiles are ancestrally land dwelling in our world and no land-dwelling tetrapod, as far as we currently know, has ever became aquatic and then switched right back to living on land after already adapting for water. If, in fact, Godzilla's species is basal to where his evolutionary lineage to start living on land and he's not a land creature adapting to an oceanic life, then he'd only be very, very distantly related to reptiles and all of his similarities with them would be pure convergence. Either that or, unlike in our world where all land dwelling vertebrates share a common ancestor, all land dwelling vertebrates in the Tohoverse are (sorta) unrelated and independently evolved to live on land from different types of fish.
You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.
It probably is coincidental, unless it's a deliberate reference to Dakosaurus, which, if you have forgotten, was dubbed "Godzilla" due to it's massive jaws. The more I look at it though, the more it looks like the Pliosaur Maelstrom from Ice-Age 2.
OH NO, IT'S GAWDZILLER!! :D

Image

User avatar
Dawsbfiremind
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2958
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:59 pm
Location: My writing desk

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Dawsbfiremind »

Gerdzerl wrote:
Inferno Rodan wrote: You're waaaay overthinking it. "Sea animal becoming a land animal" can just as easily be applied to a mosasaur or other marine reptile (that picture in particular bears quite a resemblance to a really fat Dakosaurus, though I'm sure that's purely coincidental) transitioning to a terrestrial form.
Fair enough. Overthinking is part of the fun for me, though, as I find kaiju science incredibly interesting.
Well there's overthinkers and underthinkers, and this fandom has equal amounts of both to balance each other out. You go in depth as to what Shingoji is, and I just think he's Godzilla.
An undercooked, untrimmed-of-fat Godzilla without that inedible parsley garnish that people still use for some reason.
goji89 wrote:
Dawsbfiremind wrote:People have asked me how I can want to be a writer
With skills like this......I wonder too.
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:Holy mother of Bagan we actually are stuck in limbo.
TK drinking game official rules.
https://www.tohokingdom.com/forum/viewt ... 0#p1564587

User avatar
tbeasley
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2033
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:28 pm

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by tbeasley »

I know you should always take certain Wikis with a grain of salt but I was poking around in one and this caught my attention...
http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla ... evolutions
According to The Art of Shin Godzilla and several other official publications, the fourth form was merely a beginning ("baby") and Godzilla would continue to evolve. Future forms and consequences of this have been noted, and it was pointed that extinction on the subcellular scale is necessary to defeat Godzilla.

These include the below aspects:
◾Fifth Form
◾Acquire flight ability.
◾Self-division without limits to eventually cover the whole of Earth.
◾Divided forms may shrink in size and form a legion.
◾Become immune to the Yashiori Plan.
◾Lose algesia (sensitivity to pain) and emotions.
◾Self-generation of a completed form from a tiniest fragment of the body.

◾Sixth Form
◾Overcoming requirements of air and water to survive.
◾Will achieve self energy productions.
◾Achieving limitless nuclear fusions and overcome energy problems.
◾Degeneration of the mouth and teeth. Will eventually lose these organs.
◾Will eventually invade outer space and reach other planets.

◾Seventh Form
◾Contains a small universe within its body.
◾Synthesizing any materials and elements at will and make them its own.
◾Adapt to harsh environments of any planets.

◾Eighth Form
◾Transcending physical law and reaching the "level of GOD" (and Immortality).
Especially this...
Interestingly, it was revealed in 2012 that a memo named Shin Godzilla was left by Ishiro Honda; he was planning to create a Godzilla to self-divide, and coalesce enemies and grow larger, enabling aerification and solidification, and become inanimate.
The sources link to Japanese sites and Twitter so is there any merit to this... ?

User avatar
Cybermat47
Interpol Agent
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 10:21 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Cybermat47 »

Zarm wrote:I don't buy the 'song represents Godzilla's actual emotions' bit. Even if it is so, that is (to me) a tremendously awful and lazy idea (seriously- in Final Wars, is Zilla feeling deeply regretful for the actions of his species causing him to lose everything because a snippet of 'We're All To Blame' is played?)
No, of course not. None of the other music from any other movie is from Godzilla's point of view, but the lyrics of Who Will Know make it clear that it is, just as the lyrics of Persecution of the Masses are about the suffering of Godzilla's victims, and Defeat Is No Option is about the Japanese government's struggle to keep fighting after the JSDF's failure.
Image

User avatar
MechaGoji Bro7503
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6117
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:02 pm
Location: Black Hole Planet 3 branch of Majima Construction.
Contact:

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by MechaGoji Bro7503 »

tbeasley wrote:I know you should always take certain Wikis with a grain of salt but I was poking around in one and this caught my attention...
http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla ... evolutions
According to The Art of Shin Godzilla and several other official publications, the fourth form was merely a beginning ("baby") and Godzilla would continue to evolve. Future forms and consequences of this have been noted, and it was pointed that extinction on the subcellular scale is necessary to defeat Godzilla.

These include the below aspects:
◾Fifth Form
◾Acquire flight ability.
◾Self-division without limits to eventually cover the whole of Earth.
◾Divided forms may shrink in size and form a legion.
◾Become immune to the Yashiori Plan.
◾Lose algesia (sensitivity to pain) and emotions.
◾Self-generation of a completed form from a tiniest fragment of the body.

◾Sixth Form
◾Overcoming requirements of air and water to survive.
◾Will achieve self energy productions.
◾Achieving limitless nuclear fusions and overcome energy problems.
◾Degeneration of the mouth and teeth. Will eventually lose these organs.
◾Will eventually invade outer space and reach other planets.

◾Seventh Form
◾Contains a small universe within its body.
◾Synthesizing any materials and elements at will and make them its own.
◾Adapt to harsh environments of any planets.

◾Eighth Form
◾Transcending physical law and reaching the "level of GOD" (and Immortality).
Especially this...
Interestingly, it was revealed in 2012 that a memo named Shin Godzilla was left by Ishiro Honda; he was planning to create a Godzilla to self-divide, and coalesce enemies and grow larger, enabling aerification and solidification, and become inanimate.
The sources link to Japanese sites and Twitter so is there any merit to this... ?
:freak: Uh, to be honest I hope most of those things aren't real.... I mean "a small universe within its body"? I'm certain those are fanmade. Toxic waste can only do so much. Unless Toho wants Godzilla to be the most powerful fictional character in history.
"Bang on, mate.", - Murdoc Niccals 2018.

"Right, wrong... Nobody's got a clue what the difference is in this town. So I'm gonna have more fun... and live crazier than any of 'em." - Goro Majima.

Our G-Force a Kaiju Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/g ... 1509725595

For unique discussions on Ultraman, Godzilla, and much more check out my channel Tiger Drop Films: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCng0uL ... VCg/videos

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Zarm »

Cybermat47 wrote:No, of course not. None of the other music from any other movie is from Godzilla's point of view, but the lyrics of Who Will Know make it clear that it is, just as the lyrics of Persecution of the Masses are about the suffering of Godzilla's victims, and Defeat Is No Option is about the Japanese government's struggle to keep fighting after the JSDF's failure.
I think that's my issue. What 'makes it clear' as opposed to 'can be interpreted that way if one is so inclined' (which, based on past lack of precedent and no clear indicators in the movie, I would not be)?
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
Cybermat47
Interpol Agent
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 10:21 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Cybermat47 »

Zarm wrote:
Cybermat47 wrote:No, of course not. None of the other music from any other movie is from Godzilla's point of view, but the lyrics of Who Will Know make it clear that it is, just as the lyrics of Persecution of the Masses are about the suffering of Godzilla's victims, and Defeat Is No Option is about the Japanese government's struggle to keep fighting after the JSDF's failure.
I think that's my issue. What 'makes it clear' as opposed to 'can be interpreted that way if one is so inclined' (which, based on past lack of precedent and no clear indicators in the movie, I would not be)?
I agree that it's unclear in the movie, as it's hard to hear the actual words that the song is saying (even more so if you're the target audience, seeing as the words are in English), but once you read the lyrics, it becomes clear what the music is about.
Image

User avatar
GodzillaBurgh
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:28 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by GodzillaBurgh »

Another reason to love Shin Godzilla. It's a Godzilla movie that provokes many thoughts & ideals on the mystery of Godzilla itself. And, in my opinion, the best example of the term GOD in GODZILLA.
"Just as you distrust us, so we distrust others as well. It's wrong. We're all human. As humans we are responsible to each other. We are related. Refuse us, and you will abandon your brothers. We must learn to help each other."
- Sakai, Godzilla vs. The Thing
Image

User avatar
Gawdziller1954
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1060
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:29 pm
Location: Painis Island

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Gawdziller1954 »

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
tbeasley wrote:I know you should always take certain Wikis with a grain of salt but I was poking around in one and this caught my attention...
http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla ... evolutions
According to The Art of Shin Godzilla and several other official publications, the fourth form was merely a beginning ("baby") and Godzilla would continue to evolve. Future forms and consequences of this have been noted, and it was pointed that extinction on the subcellular scale is necessary to defeat Godzilla.

These include the below aspects:
◾Fifth Form
◾Acquire flight ability.
◾Self-division without limits to eventually cover the whole of Earth.
◾Divided forms may shrink in size and form a legion.
◾Become immune to the Yashiori Plan.
◾Lose algesia (sensitivity to pain) and emotions.
◾Self-generation of a completed form from a tiniest fragment of the body.

◾Sixth Form
◾Overcoming requirements of air and water to survive.
◾Will achieve self energy productions.
◾Achieving limitless nuclear fusions and overcome energy problems.
◾Degeneration of the mouth and teeth. Will eventually lose these organs.
◾Will eventually invade outer space and reach other planets.

◾Seventh Form
◾Contains a small universe within its body.
◾Synthesizing any materials and elements at will and make them its own.
◾Adapt to harsh environments of any planets.

◾Eighth Form
◾Transcending physical law and reaching the "level of GOD" (and Immortality).
Especially this...
Interestingly, it was revealed in 2012 that a memo named Shin Godzilla was left by Ishiro Honda; he was planning to create a Godzilla to self-divide, and coalesce enemies and grow larger, enabling aerification and solidification, and become inanimate.
The sources link to Japanese sites and Twitter so is there any merit to this... ?
:freak: Uh, to be honest I hope most of those things aren't real.... I mean "a small universe within its body"? I'm certain those are fanmade. Toxic waste can only do so much. Unless Toho wants Godzilla to be the most powerful fictional character in history.
Wouldn't doubt that it's canon, considering who made the film...
OH NO, IT'S GAWDZILLER!! :D

Image

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 14248
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

Nothing of that seems out of the ordinary for Anno, but it makes sequels really fucking hard to make. There's support for whatever is said there given the flight was hunted at, and the legion idea was actually seen on screen.

In terms of the actual idea that all this came from some toxic substance, while it's totally far fetched, it's insanely mysterious and adds an element of fear from something so random having such an impact. It also adds the idea of other Kaiju coming from the liquid or substance. The legion stuff also allows for part of the beast to go rogue.
The space idea can have earth send the remains of Shin Gojira to space, only for it to return in the far future.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

User avatar
SUPERTOHOREMIX
Futurian
Posts: 3511
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:56 pm

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by SUPERTOHOREMIX »

LSD Jellyfish wrote: The space idea can have earth send the remains of Shin Gojira to space, only for it to return in the far future.
Image

Be careful for what you wish for :P.
Last edited by SUPERTOHOREMIX on Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
HeiseiGodzilla117
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5921
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:20 pm

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by HeiseiGodzilla117 »

All that stuff lines up with the content Anno usually produces, so I wouldn't be shocked if there is truth to it. But it's just more stuff to make me not enjoy this take on Godzilla. If Shin breaks into a bit bunch of shinlets or turns into an amorphous space blob, it's really not Godzilla anymore.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

User avatar
Cybermat47
Interpol Agent
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 10:21 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Monster Discussion: Godzilla (2016)

Post by Cybermat47 »

LSD Jellyfish wrote:Nothing of that seems out of the ordinary for Anno, but it makes sequels really skreeonking hard to make.
HeiseiGodzilla117 wrote:If Shin breaks into a bit bunch of shinlets or turns into an amorphous space blob, it's really not Godzilla anymore.
Hideaki Anno seems to agree with you.

“I'm good. It'd be more interesting if they changed directors. Toho won't let me do it. There'd be a lot of difficulties."

http://www.godzilla-movies.com/news/hid ... z4tJVVosZW
Image

Post Reply