Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

[BooLugosi]

I don't think Shin is that big a departure at all.

So he shoots energy out of his spines and glows. So did burning Godzilla in 1995.
So he looks scarred. The original 1954 version was designed to have keloid-scarred skin.
So he has a juvenile form that looks different from his adult form. Did we all just suddenly forget about Minilla, Godzillasaurus, etc?

He is a somewhat different take on the character, I'm just not seeing how this is some huge betrayal.
He looks and acts like Godzilla, I really don't see a problem.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[TheSecondComing]

I find myself silently nodding in agreement with many of IR's points, but the leap between GINO being different because Devlin and Emmerich were so damn arrogant as to turn a Japanese icon into a French iguana Thick McRunFast parody and Shin being different because he was a creature born from the sick and twisted mind of anime pioneer Hideaki Anno is flimsy at best.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

D&E had no intent on doing the character justice, Anno did.

[Scarlet Spider]

Personality
Godzilla's personality has varied hugely over the years, ranging from a force of evil to a protector of humanity. But they all have one thing in common: they actually have a personality. Shin Godzilla... doesn't. As one of the reviews on the main site so aptly puts it, Shin Godzilla basically acts like a giant wind-up toy. His "rampage" through Tokyo isn't even actually a rampage. Past Godzillas would intentionally raze their surroundings. Shin Godzilla just goes on a stroll. Yes, he freaks out and levels everything in the general area when he finally gets injured, but that was just lashing out in pain. One of the biggest criticisms of G'98 is that he "doesn't act like Godzilla." Neither does Shin, yet most people don't seem to mind.

Kiryugoji had no personality. He was just a wild animal. And is completely forgettable outside of his design. He's angered when injured but other than that he's just destroying shit and getting his ass kicked. Shin is a creature that's evolving into Godzilla. It took him getting hit with Bunker Busters to get him to start becoming aggressive. He started off as a sea creature only trying to adapt to land. He became more aggressive once he woke back up from sleeping and began to fight back at every turn. KingGoji was chill until they tossed a damn ape at him. After fighting him he'd just explore the mountain he was on, didn't even bother going near humans unless they were in the area by chance of his exploring.

Fat
A lot of people called LP Godzilla fat, especially Japanese fans. First of all, he's not fat. His body structure is slightly different from all other Godzillas, being built like a reptilian bear while all Toho Godzillas are, well, built like people. So he lacks the puffed-out chest and broad, human-like shoulders that people are accustomed to for Godzilla. Now granted, people do occasionally call Heisei Godzilla fat too. But he's not fat either. He's bulky. He has a shitton of body mass, but the way it's sculpted and proportioned makes it very clear that it's muscle.

Shin Godzilla, on the other hand, is fat. He is literally pear-shaped. His thighs make Heisei's look downright svelte in comparison.

And, unlike Heisei Godzilla, Shin's mass has no aesthetic behind it. There's no underlying musculature or anything. His legs just look like fat rolls on top of fat rolls. And what's worse is that he's completely out of proportion to the point that he looks ridiculous. Everything above his hips looks like it's half the size it should be compared to his legs and tail.

But no, most fans have no problem with this because it's from Toho.

Shin's design is literally sea based. He's not some upright dinosaur at first. He's a swimming sea creature that's evolving to adapt to his surroundings and in response to stimuli. Shin had no hands, just little stubs akin to fins. He grew arms but they weren't a priority. Getting himself upright and stronger, larger legs and longer tail to support himself was priority. Even when his hands grew it wasn't by much, because what use would they have? Not like there's any kaiju he has to fight. Same with Tyrannosaurus having small arms, there's no point to having arms when they have bone crushing jaws doing the work.

For bolded, people literally make fun of Heisei Godzilla because they consider him fat and he's from Toho regardless of your explanation. They do the same with SpaceGodzilla and Destoroyah as well though.

Gills
People bitched about LP Godzilla having gills. Then Shin comes along and has gills too, but no one says anything because it's from Toho. What makes this one doubly ridiculous is the fact that LP's gills are barely even noticeable, while Shin's range from "taking up a third of his body" to "still blatantly obvious" depending on which form he's in.

Maybe because he started off as an overgrown sea creature. Shin's gills close up once he evolves towards being land based and leaving the sea. Legendary Godzilla lives in the sea, so him having gills makes sense.

Feet
There were literally dozens of pages of people arguing over LP Godzilla's feet. G'98's feet got criticism too, albeit as part of the whole package of being built like a theropod. Nevertheless, G'98 being digitigrade was a sticking point for fans. Well guess what?

Shin Godzilla is digitigrade too. But fans don't care, because it's from Toho.

I remember people whining over Legendary Godzilla's feet because they weren't "Godzilla-like" as in it didn't have therapod looking feet. This is the first time I've heard people had problems with digitigrade feet.

CGI
Okay, this one is admittedly not something I've seen recently, barring from one particular Upset Computerized Diversion Dork. But I'm going to include it anyway because it's only something the fandom has eased up on within the past few years. It used to be that a live-action Godzilla had to be portrayed primarily via suitmation in order for fans to consider it a "true" Godzilla. Basically this was just fans looking for another reason to say G'98 sucked.

People still bitch about Shin being CGI via social media. And shitting on the special effects they use.

Not immune to conventional weaponry
This isn't an argument I personally agree with, but it's oft-cited by fans as something important to the character: Godzilla must be completely immune to conventional weaponry. Shin Godzilla was injured by conventional weapons. But most fans accepted it happening with minimal fuss, because it's Toho.

Not sure which most fans you're talking about since a majority I see go up in arms about how Shin is considered weak because he was injured by conventional weaponry. And make that a case towards him being beaten up by Legendary's Godzilla. Despite the fact Legendary's Godzilla didn't like having his gills shot at and made an escape by destroying a bridge. Even then the Bunker Busters were meant to teach Godzilla to build himself up defenses towards threats that cause him pain.

Asexual reproduction
I think this one might be the most shining example of the fandom's hypocrisy regarding Shin Godzilla. Apart from the design, the number one biggest problem most people had with G'98 was the fact that Godzilla reproduced asexually. Now Shin rolls along and has the exact same ability, and not a single person gives it a second thought. Because Toho. It's pretty hilarious, actually.

People are still confused when it comes to Shin. It's not clear if they were sexual reproductions or just another stage of evolution in response to his environment. I wasn't bothered by Godzilla 1998 overall since I find the movie to be fun and don't act as if the movie killed my dog like some fans treat it. Zilla reproducing reminded people of the Jurassic Park raptors and the scenes from it rubbed people the wrong way.

Though overall, Godzilla fandom being hypocritical isn't new at all. Majority of the fanbase consist of entitled manchildren/women that will shit on movies and designs not up to their standards. And decide whether someone is a true fan or not. However, there's some reasonable people in the fandom, just kinda rare nowadays.

[Inferno Rodan]

I've been very pleased with the amount of actual good discussion this topic has brought up. When I posted this, I was honestly expecting an avalanche of salt in response. So thank you all for not doing that.

Most of the negative responses seem to have resulted from a fundamental misunderstanding of the point I was making. I wasn't specifically criticizing Shin for having the features I listed. I was merely pointing out the fact that Shin shares many features that fans have complained about for non-Toho Godzillas in the past, yet generally haven't complained about for Shin.

However, regarding Shin's origin: the movie absolutely does imply he's an amalgam. All of the pieces to reach that conclusion are very much laid out for the viewer to put together. It just doesn't go the extra step to blatantly state it outright, because 1) it's not important to the plot, and 2) this is Anno we're talking about here. And it has nothing to do with being a mixotroph. I'm fully aware what that means, thank you very much.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

I've been very pleased with the amount of actual good discussion this topic has brought up. When I posted this, I was honestly expecting an avalanche of salt in response. So thank you all for not doing that.

Most of the negative responses seem to have resulted from a fundamental misunderstanding of the point I was making. I wasn't specifically criticizing Shin for having the features I listed. I was merely pointing out the fact that Shin shares many features that fans have complained about for non-Toho Godzillas in the past, yet generally haven't complained about for Shin.

However, regarding Shin's origin: the movie absolutely does imply he's an amalgam. All of the pieces to reach that conclusion are very much laid out for the viewer to put together. It just doesn't go the extra step to blatantly state it outright, because 1) it's not important to the plot, and 2) this is Anno we're talking about here. And it has nothing to do with being a mixotroph. I'm fully aware what that means, thank you very much.

Same, i thought multiple warnings were going to be given out due to the arguing but nope.

But im still skeptical about G16's origin i know hes a amalgam of some kind and your right about it not being important to the plot, but if he is exactly a mixtroph is unknown. I hope it stays that way, mysterious.

[M.U.T.O.]

But im still skeptical about G16's origin i know hes a amalgam of some kind and your right about it not being important to the plot, but if he is exactly a mixtroph is unknown. I hope it stays that way, mysterious.

I think you kinda got it backwards. They explicitly said he IS a mixotroph.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

But im still skeptical about G16's origin i know hes a amalgam of some kind and your right about it not being important to the plot, but if he is exactly a mixtroph is unknown. I hope it stays that way, mysterious.

I think you kinda got it backwards. They explicitly said he IS a mixotroph.

Oh i did? My bad ive only seen the film once.

[M.U.T.O.]

But im still skeptical about G16's origin i know hes a amalgam of some kind and your right about it not being important to the plot, but if he is exactly a mixtroph is unknown. I hope it stays that way, mysterious.

I think you kinda got it backwards. They explicitly said he IS a mixotroph.

Oh i did? My bad ive only seen the film once.

Yeah, me too. (At least in theaters.)

[tbeasley]

Origin
While the specifics of Godzilla's origin have varied throughout the years, he has always been some sort of reptilian creature that was either awakened or mutated by nuclear testing. Shin Godzilla's origin has none of those things. While it could certainly be argued that the nuclear waste angle is simply a more modern take on the nuclear aspect (and not one I would argue against), there's no defending the amalgamation of organisms aspect.

I believe this is a dumb rumor that originated on this very site.
Godzilla started out as an unseen prehistoric lifeform. Maybe not a dinosaur or marine reptile, but some sort of fish/amphibian/reptile-like creature. The film even shows a waste canister with a huge chunk bitten out of it. It's implied he fed on these and mutated over time, as Goro Maki studied and lured him to the surface. From there, Godzilla begins adapting to land and what humanity throws at him.

Metamorphosis/Evolution
Related to the above, Shin Godzilla's self-evolving capability is a massive departure from the core character. Gaining new powers is something that Godzilla has done plenty, and it's not something fans generally have a problem with. But actually going through a multi-stage physical evolution like some sort of demented Pokemon is completely outside the realm of what fans would consider acceptable under any other circumstances.

Godzilla is theorized to be a transitional animal in the original film (a land reptile adapting to the sea), the Heisei Godzilla started out as a large theropod (for whatever reason the writer felt appropriate), Godzilla Junior goes through multiple stages (some awkward) before reaching adulthood, etc. What Shin does is not too removed from any of that. As some may have pointed out, it's essentially a film about Godzilla becoming Godzilla.

Personality
Godzilla's personality has varied hugely over the years, ranging from a force of evil to a protector of humanity. But they all have one thing in common: they actually have a personality. Shin Godzilla... doesn't.

There are plenty of films in the series where Godzilla and other monsters seemingly just wonder around causing chaos before lashing out to whatever humanity has in store for them. And some fans are quite guilty of projecting whatever personality they see fit onto them, some rather cringey. But you can't say to me Shin Godzilla has no more personality than in Return of G, the Kiryu films, etc.

Fat
Now granted, people do occasionally call Heisei Godzilla fat too. But he's not fat either. He's bulky. He has a shitton of body mass, but the way it's sculpted and proportioned makes it very clear that it's muscle.

Practically every Godzilla design looks wonky from certain angles, especially from the front, including the fan favorite Heisei...


Now Heisei might be a more 'standard' design overall, but the pinhead and fat rolls around the waist and legs are still there.

And, unlike Heisei Godzilla, Shin's mass has no aesthetic behind it. There's no underlying musculature or anything. His legs just look like fat rolls on top of fat rolls. And what's worse is that he's completely out of proportion to the point that he looks ridiculous. Everything above his hips looks like it's half the size it should be compared to his legs and tail.

Whether the design is aesthetically appealing depends on the person, but there is reason behind it - he's overheating over the course of the movie. The first form we see has the pale skin of a deep-sea creature, when he takes on his next form the skin begins heating up and takes on a red coloration. And the final design we see is crispy and charged with fissures of energy between the folds and cracks. It's meant to be unnerving and show power.

Gills
Feet

I think after argument after argument about this on 2014, people became numb to it. In a way it got them ready for a different Godzilla, which in a lot of ways was the point of Shin while Legendary tried to do a more traditional Godzilla. I feel fortunate we have two very different takes on the character going on right now, with an animated version on the way.

Not immune to conventional weaponry
This isn't an argument I personally agree with, but it's oft-cited by fans as something important to the character: Godzilla must be completely immune to conventional weaponry. Shin Godzilla was injured by conventional weapons. But most fans accepted it happening with minimal fuss, because it's Toho.

It comes down to how it's depicted in the film. Godzilla is hurt by the American military yes, but quickly recovers and lashes out in a way that is vastly more destructive. They make him WORSE by trying to destroy him.

Asexual reproduction
I think this one might be the most shining example of the fandom's hypocrisy regarding Shin Godzilla. Apart from the design, the number one biggest problem most people had with G'98 was the fact that Godzilla reproduced asexually. Now Shin rolls along and has the exact same ability, and not a single person gives it a second thought. Because Toho. It's pretty hilarious, actually.

This is like the whole amalgamation misconception, and I'm sure it won't be going away anytime soon. It's not the same exact thing, Shin Godzilla isn't laying eggs all over the place and treated like a pest. It's more like abilities seen in past Toho monsters like the Gargantuas, applied to the regenerative power of modern Godzillas. It's there to stress the godlike strength of his genetic code, and how his survival is not compatible with humanity's.

tl:dr version:
If an American Godzilla had been made even remotely like Shin Godzilla, it would be utterly crucified by the fans. The only reason he hasn't been is because "Muh Toho." Anyone that believes otherwise is in denial.

Before Legendary Godzilla, you might be right. But as I said up above, after presenting a more or less traditional Godzilla in that film, it was up to Toho to prove that Japan still had something to say with Godzilla, and they came up with something new and different, which paid off. And as weird and different as the film can be, it's not all that removed from what's come before. It's not so much hypocrisy, some people are simply being reactionary.

[omgitsgodzilla]

Most of the negative responses seem to have resulted from a fundamental misunderstanding of the point I was making. I wasn't specifically criticizing Shin for having the features I listed. I was merely pointing out the fact that Shin shares many features that fans have complained about for non-Toho Godzillas in the past, yet generally haven't complained about for Shin.

I don't think the problem with the '98 Godzilla was that it did those things, but that it did them poorly and with no particular respect for the original source.

[Inferno Rodan]

I believe this is a dumb rumor that originated on this very site.

Well, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, I suppose, but the fact remains that that is indeed what the movie suggests.

[Mr. Xeno]

I wouldn't take anything the characters within the movie say about Godzilla's origin too seriously. Remember, a HUGE chunk of the film is dedicated to them thinking they've understood the creature, only to be proven wrong minutes later.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

I wouldn't take anything the characters within the movie say about Godzilla's origin too seriously. Remember, a HUGE chunk of the film is dedicated to them thinking they've understood the creature, only to be proven wrong minutes later.

Huh, i didnt think about it that way, good point.

[tbeasley]

Well, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, I suppose, but the fact remains that that is indeed what the movie suggests.

[Variola]

Now that there's a subbed copy floating around, could someone screengrab the exact words used when they supposedly refer to Godzilla as an amalgam?

[Spuro]

Now that there's a subbed copy floating around, could someone screengrab the exact words used when they supposedly refer to Godzilla as an amalgam?

A subbed copy that's missing 20 minutes of footage. The scene in question might very well not be in there at all.

[Inferno Rodan]

Well, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, I suppose, but the fact remains that that is indeed what the movie suggests.

Oh noes! Not the dreaded Lone Reaction Image response! How could I ever hope to compete with THAT?!

Now that there's a subbed copy floating around, could someone screengrab the exact words used when they supposedly refer to Godzilla as an amalgam?

There isn't. Like I said, it's never specifically stated what he is, but all the pieces are laid out for the viewer to put together, and they most definitely point to that.

1. Godzilla's genetic code is massive and extremely convoluted.
2. Goro Maki awakened Godzilla somehow.
3. Goro Maki's notes say something along the lines of there being a colony/ecosystem of mutant organisms feeding off of the nuclear waste (I don't recall the exact quote).
4. There appears to be a foreign skeleton embedded in his tail (you can clearly see ribs, so it's not just his exposed tail vertebrae).
5. There were literally Godzilla-people coming out of his tail at the end.

Individually, each one of these could simply be handwaved as unimportant. But all taken together, it seems pretty silly to me to deny that he's an amalgam.

[Demon Lord Gira]

Well, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, I suppose, but the fact remains that that is indeed what the movie suggests.

This is spam. Please put more than just images in your posts, because otherwise there's nothing of substance there.

Same goes for everyone in this thread: Please refrain from one-liners and images only, or warnings will be handed out for spam.

[Dillyziller]

Its kind of hard to take this thread seriously when it was pretty much created to trigger those who like Shin Gojira.
You can deny that it isn't but when you actually think of why a thread like this exists there really isn't any good reason for it to.