Where should he stand? (Hero or Villain)

For the discussion of the Legendary Pictures Godzilla franchise.

What role should Godzilla play?

A hero.
3
6%
A threat to the world.
9
17%
A potential ally.
5
9%
An anti-hero.
34
63%
Other (please specify).
3
6%
 
Total votes : 54

Re: Where should he stand?

Postby HayesAJones » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:38 pm

Arrow wrote:
HayesAJones wrote:I honestly don't see how they could change him without totally loosing realism.

I really wish people would get away from this "realism" thing. No matter how hard you try to validate him, Godzilla isn't realistic and trying too hard to make him so merely kills the fun of the movies. I'd rather not go through another chore of a movie that tries to take itself so seriously that it ends up just being laughable *cough*Heisei Era*cough*.
While I don't object to the very idea of another anti-hero Godzilla, he'll have to be pulled off in a far less conventional way than Return of Godzilla onwards. I'd rather not see the same Godzilla I saw in 1984-2004 (with a few exceptions here and there).

I adore movies that don't take themselves too seriously, but I'd really like to see a Godzilla that's a real force to be reckoned with, a beast that sides with no one, man or monster. I'd want this Godzilla to be taken seriously, by both the character and the audience. Of course Godzilla's very existence isn't realistic, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be handled realistically. The Dark Knight and the Heisei Gamera trilogy both dealt with similarly unrealistic characters, but they were handled seriously. And all four of those movie are just top-notch.

A heroic Godzilla worked in the 70's, but I don't see it going far today.

No one says he has to be a Godzilla who preforms handshakes, boxes, flies, and slides on his tail. There are other ways to introduce a heroic Godzilla than a complete and utter '70s throwback.


But besides that era, Godzilla's been either a villain or an anti-hero. From Gojira to Mothra vs. Godzilla he was a villain. From Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster to All Monster Attack he was more heroic, but still a dangerous force. And then from Return of Godzilla all the way to Godzilla: Final Wars he shifted between villain and anti-hero. With it really comes down to it, Godzilla is a very anti anti-hero.
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Tyler » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:14 pm

My problem with an antihero Godzilla is that he can't grow much as a character unless you bring in a kid. GMK shook things up by making him an outright villain again, but I don't want that for an American reboot either. I still think it'd be a cool idea to start him off more Mothra vs. Godzilla, then have him more towards Ghidorah territory as a he fights the other monster(s). There are ways of making him a hero, or something you can root for, without tail slides and whatnot. Final Wars tried, but that was just a crappy movie in general.

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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Arrow » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:23 pm

HayesAJones wrote:I adore movies that don't take themselves too seriously, but I'd really like to see a Godzilla that's a real force to be reckoned with, a beast that sides with no one, man or monster.

Haven't we seen this version of Godzilla constantly since '84? I personally think it's time for a Godzilla that doesn't need to play the exact same role he's been playing for twelve of his last thirteen movies (not counting GINO). I'm not rejecting the very possibility for an anti-hero Godzilla, but should they go this route I'd hope they introduce some sort of change for his character. A one-dimensional, mindless monster who's role is to do nothing but move the plot forward got stale a long time ago.

I'd want this Godzilla to be taken seriously, by both the character and the audience. Of course Godzilla's very existence isn't realistic, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be handled realistically.

That's the thing. He has been taken seriously. And I think the argument can be made that the movies and the character suffered quality-wise simply because the movies focus so much on trying to make Godzilla "realistic" (I personally think "believable" is a better term to use) that they forget to be entertaining. In order to succeed, the movie doesn't need to be "realistic" it needs to be entertaining.

The Dark Knight and the Heisei Gamera trilogy both dealt with similarly unrealistic characters, but they were handled seriously. And all four of those movie are just top-notch.

I'd say those four movies are top-notch because of the writing and talent of the people working on them, not because of how they treated the central character in question. Gamera is still a giant turtle. Gamera: Guardian of the Universe isn't so focused on making the movie "realistic" as it is on making it entertaining. Gamera 3 introduces mythical monster who bonds with a schoolgirl. In the first two movies, Gamera is linked to Asagi via a magical stone. There's tons of unbelievable stuff in all three movies, but they all manage to be entertaining despite that. Personally I think the LP Godzilla should take a page from the Gamera movies - focus on the entertainment, not trying to validate an unrealistic concept.

But besides that era, Godzilla's been either a villain or an anti-hero.

Which is exactly why I wouldn't object to a more heroic Godzilla. It'd be a fresh concept for an all new reboot that wipes the slate clean.

From Gojira to Mothra vs. Godzilla he was a villain. From Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster to All Monster Attack he was more heroic, but still a dangerous force. And then from Return of Godzilla all the way to Godzilla: Final Wars he shifted between villain and anti-hero. With it really comes down to it, Godzilla is a very anti anti-hero.

See above.
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby HayesAJones » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:33 pm

I think Godzilla being two-dimensional is more due to the films he was in, not his status as an anti-hero. Anti-hero is a very broad term, meaning Godzilla's character can be expanded upon within that status. He could first appear to be a mindless monster, but as the movie/series continues he's shown to have great intelligence and deep emotion. Something like that, showing that he's moving closer to being a legit hero, but always reminding us that he's still a potentially dangerous force. Kinda like Zilla Jr. in Godzilla: the Series. He's obviously an protagonist, but many episodes show he's still destructive and a potential threat.

In fact, a move from villain to anti-hero seems like a really good chance to characterize Godzilla.
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Arrow » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:50 pm

HayesAJones wrote:I think Godzilla being two-dimensional is more due to the films he was in, not his status as an anti-hero. Anti-hero is a very broad term, meaning Godzilla's character can be expanded upon within that status. He could first appear to be a mindless monster, but as the movie/series continues he's shown to have great intelligence and deep emotion. Something like that, showing that he's moving closer to being a legit hero, but always reminding us that he's still a potentially dangerous force. Kinda like Zilla Jr. in Godzilla: the Series. He's obviously an protagonist, but many episodes show he's still destructive and a potential threat.

I agree he can be expanded on. I've said this in many of my posts in this subject. But I also don't think an interesting movie can be made by putting him on the heroic side. Again, not a complete '70s throwback with him coming to human aid heralded by blaring horns, but in another, more unconventional manner. Honestly as long as the writing is good and the character has a personality, I don't necessarily care. But I disagree that Godzilla must be anti-hero, especially when the standard characterization for the anti-hero Godzilla - in the majority of the Heisei and Millennium movies, the Marc Cerasini novels, and GINO - has been played out by this point. GMK gets props for re-introducing the completely antagonistic Godzilla used in 1954 and shaking the formula up a bit, but the Kiryu films demonstrate just how tired Plot-Device-Zilla is as a concept.

In fact, a move from villain to anti-hero seems like a really good chance to characterize Godzilla.

It's been done in both the Showa and Heisei series.
With some good writing, anyone can give a fresh spin on it, however. I'm more interested in a more heroic (or just not plain antagonistic) Godzilla, however.
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby JVM » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:34 pm

As for realism, I'd like to point something out.

Realism was one of the driving forces between Godzilla (98)'s behavior. You know, the same behavior this fandom hates with a passion and blames for the movie sucking? The laying eggs? The being afraid of the military? The eating fish?
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby miguelnuva » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:57 am

Godzilla could work better as an anti-villian as he would protect the earth and not the people and some would see him as a threat and some would like him
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Living Corpse » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:24 am

JVM wrote:As for realism, I'd like to point something out.

Realism was one of the driving forces between Godzilla (98)'s behavior. You know, the same behavior this fandom hates with a passion and blames for the movie sucking? The laying eggs? The being afraid of the military? The eating fish?


No. D&E not giving a rats ass is what made G'98 suck.
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Tyler » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:15 pm

Yeah, LP seriously needs to get a director who 'gets it.' All D&E saw was a guy in a suit when they watched the old movies. They didn't see the spirit behind it all. This director, whoever he or she may be, shouldn't act like, "Oh, I watched some of the other movies and they were all right. This one will be better, though."

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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Blackout286 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:49 pm

Personally for me, I'd like a Godzilla that's much like the Godzilla from Gojira, destructive and a heartless void, but with a nice amount of personality and animalistic behavior. A powerful prehistoric force of nature and the hellish product of nuclear warfare.
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Lionblaze » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:37 pm

TokyoVigilante wrote:He should be a chaotic neutral. An uncontrollable force with a will of its own, with a spark of personality.

This, I totally agree :D
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby Dash 7 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:21 pm

Moral ambiguity is the right direction IMO. Make him a similar menace to the Hulk. An unstoppable force of nature that really just is childlike on the inside yet destructive all the same.
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Re: Where should he stand?

Postby G-Man1989 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:15 pm

Totally an anti-hero. He's not really evil on his own, but he isn't the type who acts like Gamera and Ultraman. It would be nice to see a plot that elaborates upon why he is so destructive, with how the nuclear mutations have harmed him physically and psychologically. I think what the Shobijin translated from what Godzilla said in "Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster" should be considered to why he feels so spiteful towards humans "Who keep bullying him".
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GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby FinalSmash1689 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:52 pm

Pretty simple. Do you want to Big G to be a HERO or a VILLAIN in the new movie?

Personally I want to see him as a Villain. I've always thought he was more interesting as such. I've never really seen the appeal of the heroic Godzilla. He works better as an anti-hero or at the very least like in the Heisei series were at times he was fighting the monster more for himself than for humanity.
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Re: GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby Tyler » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:06 pm

He should start off bad then turn kind of good to fight the real bad guy monster.

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Re: GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby NSZ » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:08 pm

I want to see him NEUTRAL.

Have him defeat the humanity-threatening monster, then turn around and burninate his surroundings, like in G2000. Send a message to humanity that he isn't some protector to be relied upon, nor is he a force that's out there to outright eliminate humanity. Just a force of nature looking out for his own.
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Re: GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby HayesAJones » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:15 pm

NSZ wrote:I want to see him NEUTRAL.

Have him defeat the humanity-threatening monster, then turn around and burninate his surroundings, like in G2000. Send a message to humanity that he isn't some protector to be relied upon, nor is he a force that's out there to outright eliminate humanity. Just a force of nature looking out for his own.

Ditto here. He not on Mankind's side, but he not really out to destroy us either. Other monster threatening his territory though, that's another story...
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Re: GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby shinmattiathekaiju » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:17 pm

Chaotic neutral
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Re: GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby Ocean » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:17 pm

Chaotic Neutral force of nature type creature is how he is best.
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Re: GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby TokyoVigilante » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:45 pm

He should be an asshole. None of this pure Good/Evil gobbledygook. He's at his most interesting when he's strictly a dick.
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Re: GODZILLA: HERO or VILLAIN?

Postby Desolation MM » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:55 pm

Anti-Hero like Heisei and early Showa. Should have motivation beyond that of a normal animal (looking at you Millennium films except GMK), but not so much on a human level.
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