Godzilla vs. Kong Discussion Thread - FULL SPOILERS AHEAD

[Jermobooka]

The technologies make it feel like the MonsterVerse will burn out really fast. What won't they be able to do? Just because?

They probably won’t progress much after this. I believe the thought process was “Hey, this might very well be the last one, so why not go all out for this?”, but after seeing thats not the case with more MV installments definitely coming, they gotta keep it more tight-knit. The most we’d see further than this would probably be more mecha/robots (from Monarch or whoever else). HEAV’s are definitely staying as a mainstay though.

Godzilla having such absurd atomic breath abilities makes it hard for me to imagine him going up against an opponent when he's at full strength. And he was just used there to move everyone to Hong Kong for the finale. What precedent does that set? I don't want to see more of those really wacky things.

The villains will just get stronger from this point. Ghidorah was not even a full adult of his species, and even then there’s probably stronger extraterrestrial titans out there. Hell, maybe there could be bio engineered titans, Biollante for example, that are designed, like the MUTO’s and MG, to counter Godzilla, which could make the atomic breath less effective. There’s a whole bunch of ways they could go about this with Goji’s new OP atomic breath

But, now that they've fully embraced the Hollow Earth stuff, I'd actually like to see that expanded, mainly in the way the concept art visualized things. The dark look of it in those concepts, and the additional creatures. There's plenty to explore, and it could go further by linking the tunnel ideas, with creatures adapted to dark environments. That would be awesome. It could have a periodic glow, being lit up like it is in the movie, due to some sort of heat source towards the center or something weird like that. It could be explained that way, I guess?

Agreed. The HE is one of the aspects of the MV that get me the most hyped and i think is the most interesting. There’s way more possibilities now! Titans, areas, technologies, stories, characters, the HE has effectively become Pandora’s box for the MV and i can’t wait to see how Legendary explores and utilizes it

But with Godzilla and Kong actually linked in this series, it opens up a new set of possibilities. I'd like to see a Kong movie that sets up a villain or challenge for Godzilla to face, or vice-versa. New monsters, too. Hopefully new films are made, and they really dive into the "Verse" aspect. Put together a team that keeps things consistent between installments. Episodic types of stories. Full, lively, returning characters. A more serious, but "epic" feel. Stop explaining things through comics. Make it make sense within the movies. Bring them back for a team up once again.

I’m certain the continuity and quality of the MG will improve with the next “phase”. It wasn’t as great with the first four because G14 was never meant to become the MV, so they had to do a lot of tweaking, retconning, and bullshittery along the way. Because who cared about the MV besides the Godzilla nerds at that point? But now that GvK has garnered the attention of everyone with more people interested in Godzilla, the MV, Kaiju, and even toku than ever before, they gotta step up their game. Legendary already making ideas and planning future installments is proof of all of this. I’m also pretty sure Dougherty is in the MV for the long haul. Overall, i’m incredibly optimistic and excited for what’s to come

I've seen people suggest aliens. Please, no aliens. No space monsters and alien invasion plots. We really don't need them at all. We have an interesting world set up to explore. That would be just as dumb as a Pacific Rim crossover.

It could be done very well, like how TGM put it and with it tying into the lore and mythology of the titans/HE. But yeah, for now we should focus on the HE/titans/ancient war/ancient civilizations/mythologies we’ve established

[ernesth100]

How am I just now realizing reviving Kong with an electric charge is technically also another callback/easter egg. Whatever y'all wanna call it.

[Thegarbagemonster]

I still think a PF/Godzilla crossover could work as long as its CLEARLY a standalone thing. Someone on this forum said that the key could be to put it in the PF Universe and have Godzilla join, not have PF come into the MV, and I think that's the solution. It would no doubt confuse people, but hey, it was clear that Spiderverse was separate from MCU Spiderman films when they ran at the same-ish time. And we already have another Godzilla series airing (SP) alongside the MV.

[Showzilla]

I still think a PF/Godzilla crossover could work as long as its CLEARLY a standalone thing. Someone on this forum said that the key could be to put it in the PF Universe and have Godzilla join, not have PF come into the MV, and I think that's the solution. It would no doubt confuse people, but hey, it was clear that Spiderverse was separate from MCU Spiderman films when they ran at the same-ish time. And we already have another Godzilla series airing (SP) alongside the MV.

Make it a Disney short kind of thing

[MegaEvilSaurus666]

Aliens are already in the MV. Ghidorah busted that door wide open

No, I'm saying that people were talking about aliens like the Xiliens, Kilaaks, and M Space Hunter Nebula Aliens (the last being something we'd never need to see again). That isn't necessary. They'd probably go with something similar to an "Ancient Aliens" sort of thing, anyway. Somehow, everything has a connection to past civilizations in this series. Somehow.

And I must be the only one who thinks that this Ghidorah being the alien out of all of the monsters is kinda weird. He doesn't look like an alien any more than Rodan does. He's less alien looking than the MUTOs or Amhuluk.

Alien animals are a little different than alien people in my opinion, but yes, I see no reason why aliens can't show up. However.... I really don't want to see an "alien invasion" type thing unless the aliens are actual monsters. Maybe like in The Cloverfield Paradox, where the ships and aliens are monster creatures.

I'm having a hard time even thinking about alien monsters at this point. It's just that aliens are the last thing on my mind after the Hollow Earth and seeing Kong be himself.

And now to Jermobooka. I agree with you about the Hollow Earth, but these are my issues.

It could be done very well, like how TGM put it and with it tying into the lore and mythology of the titans/HE.

That's essentially what I fear.

They probably won’t progress much after this. I believe the thought process was “Hey, this might very well be the last one, so why not go all out for this?”, but after seeing thats not the case with more MV installments definitely coming, they gotta keep it more tight-knit.

That's exactly how a series can die/run its course, though. Each one could technically be the last, but to treat it like it is by going all out gives a sense of finality, making it more difficult to continue. At this time, the technology has evolved just to evolve, with no true rhyme or reason. Think of the Oxygen Destroyer, for example. It's hard to make rules when you've never had any. It's hard to imagine restraint when there hasn't been any. That's my issue.

The villains will just get stronger from this point. Ghidorah was not even a full adult of his species, and even then there’s probably stronger extraterrestrial titans out there. Hell, maybe there could be bio engineered titans, Biollante for example, that are designed, like the MUTO’s and MG, to counter Godzilla, which could make the atomic breath less effective. There’s a whole bunch of ways they could go about this with Goji’s new OP atomic breath

That diminishes the importance of the starting point (MUTOs, Skull Crawlers), and the struggle that came with each fight. This is known as "power creep." Godzilla should not have gotten this much more powerful after GKOTM, and it's only because they wanted the finale at that moment in GvK. Bad writing. It's difficult to make villains stronger without them being man-made, since they went the route of making Godzilla the actual "king", as opposed to being a figurative one, and making all of the "Titans" connected and able to communicate, understanding an "Alpha" hierarchy between entirely separate genera. Making it less likely that a natural, interesting opponent from Earth could exist (even despite G:Dominion). And, where did that come from? This is the first time I'm hearing this about Ghidorah, and I don't like it. Sounds like a cop-out thing to ensure that stronger opponents will appear. Just the same as Kong's growth. We all know that didn't make any sense within itself.

I’m certain the continuity and quality of the MG will improve with the next “phase”. It wasn’t as great with the first four because G14 was never meant to become the MV, so they had to do a lot of tweaking, retconning, and bullshittery along the way. Because who cared about the MV besides the Godzilla nerds at that point?

Except G2014 was a relatively strong start, all things considered (sequels greenlit during opening weekend is proof). The general audience cared enough about it and K:SI. The MV tripped over itself and GKOTM is a pretty bad sequel to G2014; the issue is not the other way around. A series with a similar feel and better sense of continuity to that first movie absolutely could have been done, and still could have been exciting and compelling. It just wasn't done, and they steered things in a direction that wasn't actually necessary. But this is where we are now.

I’m also pretty sure Dougherty is in the MV for the long haul.

That doesn't exactly bode well, to be honest.

[Jermobooka]

That's exactly how a series can die/run its course, though. Each one could technically be the last, but to treat it like it is by going all out gives a sense of finality, making it more difficult to continue. At this time, the technology has evolved just to evolve, with no true rhyme or reason. Think of the Oxygen Destroyer, for example. It's hard to make rules when you've never had any. It's hard to imagine restraint when there hasn't been any. That's my issue.

Fair enough. I’m still optimistic that real, solid rules will be set with the next installments

That diminishes the importance of the starting point (MUTOs, Skull Crawlers), and the struggle that came with each fight. This is known as "power creep." Godzilla should not have gotten this much more powerful after GKOTM, and it's only because they wanted the finale at that moment in GvK. Bad writing. It's difficult to make villains stronger without them being man-made, since they went the route of making Godzilla the actual "king", as opposed to being a figurative one, and making all of the "Titans" connected and able to communicate, understanding an "Alpha" hierarchy between entirely separate genera. Making it less likely that a natural, interesting opponent from Earth could exist (even despite G:Dominion). And, where did that come from? This is the first time I'm hearing this about Ghidorah, and I don't like it. Sounds like a cop-out thing to ensure that stronger opponents will appear. Just the same as Kong's growth. We all know that didn't make any sense within itself.

I actually like the Titan hierarchy concept. Makes all the titans more than just simple minded creatures but intelligent animals capable of complex thought to an extent.

The Ghidorah thing might not actually be real. I just heard it’s hinted at somewhere in the KOTM novelization but i can’t confirm that and haven’t heard much of it elsewhere.

Except G2014 was a relatively strong start, all things considered (sequels greenlit during opening weekend is proof). The general audience cared enough about it and K:SI. The MV tripped over itself and GKOTM is a pretty bad sequel to G2014; the issue is not the other way around. A series with a similar feel and better sense of continuity to that first movie absolutely could have been done, and still could have been exciting and compelling. It just wasn't done, and they steered things in a direction that wasn't actually necessary. But this is where we are now.

I feel like KOTM is the way it is because Legendary didn’t want to limit themselves to the pseudo-realism of G14 and instead wanted a colorful, futuristic, out-there MV that provides multiple avenues to go down. Which is where Skull Island, KOTM, and GvK have steered the MV towards. We would’ve never got the alien Ghidorah, burning Godzilla, Goji-Mothra symbiosis relationship, giant Kong axe, Mechagodzilla, HEAV’s, or extremely cool HE we have today if they didn’t let go of Gareth’s, frankly, limiting style

[Thatguy4683]

It’s no secret that we thought that these 2 creatures were original monsters made for the hollow earth.


But we recently found out that these 2 creatures were actually from King Kong 2005
Arachno-claw
Foetodon

So that beg the question? Does that mean that the other creatures from King Kong 2005 exist in the Monsterverse? To the apex predator Vastatosaurus rex
To the nightmares fuel Carnictis

[MegaEvilSaurus666]

I actually like the Titan hierarchy concept. Makes all the titans more than just simple minded creatures but intelligent animals capable of complex thought to an extent.

The Ghidorah thing might not actually be real. I just heard it’s hinted at somewhere in the KOTM novelization but i can’t confirm that and haven’t heard much of it elsewhere.

My issue is that the Titan hierarchy concept didn't make sense within the series' own rules, prior to GKOTM. Look at the MUTOs and Skull Crawlers. I prefer the idea that they're massive animals that came up at different points in the history of this fictional Earth. The MUTOs were only trying to survive as a species awakened from dormancy. Very social and expressive, intelligent. Now, we have one that bows for some reason named Barb. I preferred this Godzilla as an apex/alpha predator, and a keystone species needed to maintain the balance of earth's ecosystems. Only seen as a god or mythical beast by ancient civilizations (not associated with them), just the same as some animals are of religious importance in various cultures, or how dinosaur fossils perhaps inspired dragons. Like legends of monsters inspired merely by animals once unknown, poorly described, or rarely sighted. "God-like" in his adaptability, necessity, and longevity. A "king" in a figurative sense. It was something new. Not as an "Alpha Titan" or "king," ruling over them by an ancient social order, defending the planet and its land. Getting into wars with the Kong species as a juvenile. Some things feel like pure fan fiction, or the IDW comics.

The creatures can be highly intelligent without submitting and bowing to an "alpha," and communicating as if they're from the same time period and same species. "Alphas" in nature are the oldest or strongest within a group, or just the parents of the group. There are many intelligent, social animals that don't follow these rules. To me, this undermines the creatures and gets rid of their free-will (Alpha frequencies).

I feel like KOTM is the way it is because Legendary didn’t want to limit themselves to the pseudo-realism of G14 and instead wanted a colorful, futuristic, out-there MV that provides multiple avenues to go down. Which is where Skull Island, KOTM, and GvK have steered the MV towards. We would’ve never got the alien Ghidorah, burning Godzilla, Goji-Mothra symbiosis relationship, giant Kong axe, Mechagodzilla, HEAV’s, or extremely cool HE we have today if they didn’t let go of Gareth’s, frankly, limiting style

"Pseudo-realism" is a very subjective term. There's nothing realistic about Godzilla and especially the MUTOs. People saying that make it seem like the concept of Godzilla was so realistic in 2014. The biggest Godzilla in live action at the time? The MUTOs aren't even giant bugs, but unlike anything that exists at all. Alien-looking. No, it was just a different type of fictional world and tone than what the Godzilla franchise is used to and what the MonsterVerse has become. K:SI didn't introduce enough to steer the MonsterVerse in this current direction, even with the idea of a Hollow Earth. The theory didn't have to be completely true, and it didn't have to be the core of the planet.

Ghidorah has had different origins before, but I do think an (even more) alien Ghidorah could have been handled in a world and tone more similar to G2014 because it was only an introduction. We didn't know how deep that rabbit hole actually went. Burning Godzilla could have been executed differently, but fundamentally similar; Godzilla still had his atomic breath in 2014, just not very laser beam-like. Still lethal, and we got the coolest scene from it. Much more creative than beam spamming. Godzilla's species could have had a symbiotic interaction with Mothra's species. I think Mechagodzilla would've been handled differently. I'm thinking more tank-like, heavily built, weapon-based, instead of fast, slender, doing knee strikes and whatnot. The HEAV didn't need to actually happen and could've been subterranean vehicles built for traversing a dark, cavernous Hollow Earth.

And to be honest, I could've lived without Kong with an axe. But it's always been more about the execution, tone, and sensibility than anything else. The basic ideas aren't always the issue. Presentation is. I think it all could have been done in a style more similar to Godzilla 2014's seriousness. Different, but more similar than what we ended up with. Matt Allsopp's concept art for GKOTM pretty much proves that. The test animation for Rodan from 2016 also helps illustrate that a bit, although not perfectly.
https://www.artstation.com/matt_allsopp


Here's the thing, though. I liked GKOTM's ideas before I saw it. I thought the S.H. MonsterArts figures (especially Ghidorah) were awesome. The first two trailers for GKOTM set me up, thinking it would be like 2014 and K:SI but on steroids, although I thought some things were sort of crazy like the Titan terminology, Emma's monologue, and kinda the Argo. Despite that, I was honestly very excited. There was so much speculation. It wasn't what I expected in the end. I was disappointed in its direction. I was disappointed in the tone and characters. The bowing scene killed it.

[MorgolKing]

Like MegaEvilSaurus666, I do miss the tone and seriousness of G14. I would like to see Gareth Edwards return with a big budget to do a Destroy All Monsters type movie with several kaiju but with his eye for scope, weight, cinematography and "realistic" storytelling.

Despite the silliness of GvK's plot I do really enjoy it for what it is, and the kaiju action is really amazing. I think G14 and GvK, although quite different in tone, are the best of the MV films.

[miguelnuva]

Like MegaEvilSaurus666, I do miss the tone and seriousness of G14. I would like to see Gareth Edwards return with a big budget to do a Destroy All Monsters type movie with several kaiju but with his eye for scope, weight, cinematography and "realistic" storytelling.

Despite the silliness of GvK's plot I do really enjoy it for what it is, and the kaiju action is really amazing. I think G14 and GvK, although quite different in tone, are the best of the MV films.

I put Wingard and even Doughtery over Edwards for Destroy all Titans. Edwards can have a different film.

[Hokmuto]

-snip-

Well I would say Foetodon aka Doug could be new, after all that seemed to be the original intent. The concept art depicts a creature that is very clearly a four legged, monitor looking Godzilla and was meant to be a cousin/sub species. It didn't look like Foetodon. So the intentions are there for it to be an original kaiju so maybe it is after all. I guess we would have to see for future confirmation.

Anyway yeah I would love to see some sort of huge V-Rex that Kong has to fight. Hell maybe even make it the main villain in Kong 2 (although I would definitely prefer something else more original). And obviously you can make that be Gorosaurus but well what's the point in spending money to buy the rights to something that is so obscure and literally just a giant dinosaur when you can make one yourself?

[ernesth100]

Someone said Ghidorah doesn't look alien. And no offense. But I'm laughing. If you think a three headed 500 foot dragon lightning powered dragon that generates storms isn't alien then..shit. I duneven know man.

[Thatguy4683]

-snip-

Well I would say Foetodon aka Doug could be new, after all that seemed to be the original intent. The concept art depicts a creature that is very clearly a four legged, monitor looking Godzilla and was meant to be a cousin/sub species. It didn't look like Foetodon. So the intentions are there for it to be an original kaiju so maybe it is after all. I guess we would have to see for future confirmation.

Anyway yeah I would love to see some sort of huge V-Rex that Kong has to fight. Hell maybe even make it the main villain in Kong 2 (although I would definitely prefer something else more original). And obviously you can make that be Gorosaurus but well what's the point in spending money to buy the rights to something that is so obscure and literally just a giant dinosaur when you can make one yourself?

Maybe Gorosaurus can a alpha of the V.Rex group

[Thegarbagemonster]

Someone said Ghidorah doesn't look alien. And no offense. But I'm laughing. If you think a three headed 500 foot dragon lightning powered dragon that generates storms isn't alien then..poop. I duneven know man.

Well to be fair, his features look very Earth-based.

[Monke]

One thing I noticed regarding the speed of the monsters. From the human perspective, they retained more lumbering aspects and from the monster’s perspective they were more “weightless”

[JAGzilla]

Someone said Ghidorah doesn't look alien. And no offense. But I'm laughing. If you think a three headed 500 foot dragon lightning powered dragon that generates storms isn't alien then..poop. I duneven know man.

Well, he does look remarkably like dragons out of human mythology, which are themselves based on terrestrial reptiles.

To be fair, of course, (and setting aside unconfirmed UFO lore) we have literally no idea at all what alien life looks like. There is no such thing as a realistic alien in science fiction, unless some designer happened to get lucky by chance. Ghidorah is no more or less authentically alien than Chewbacca, Daleks, or Spock.

[ernesth100]

Someone said Ghidorah doesn't look alien. And no offense. But I'm laughing. If you think a three headed 500 foot dragon lightning powered dragon that generates storms isn't alien then..poop. I duneven know man.

Well, he does look remarkably like dragons out of human mythology, which are themselves based on terrestrial reptiles.

To be fair, of course, (and setting aside unconfirmed UFO lore) we have literally no idea at all what alien life looks like. There is no such thing as a realistic alien in science fiction, unless some designer happened to get lucky by chance. Ghidorah is no more or less authentically alien than Chewbacca, Daleks, or Spock.

Which is exactly why I think the MV can stomach an alien invasion plot. It's easy to just make the aliens look human and call it a day. It doesn't have to be over the top scifi nonsense.

It can just be regular relatable scifi nonsense.

[GodzillaFan1990's]

Just know there's such a thing known as convergent evolution. That would be the case here with King Ghidorah looking like a traditional medieval dragon.

[GodzillaXGomoraFight]

I have a general comment/question: is Godzilla 2014 really that serious in terms of its treatment of the titular monster? He is shown as a keystone species in existence in order to keep nature in balance and as a rival to the MUTOS? Besides that, what about Godzilla is really all that serious? He performs a spectacular finisher reminiscent of King Kong 1933 to kill the FEMUTO and after beating the MUTOs, he happily swims away from mankind back under the depths from whence he came? If the movie was really so serious, we would have seen a Godzilla akin to what we saw in Shin Godzilla, Return of Godzilla, or Gojira. My impression from first viewing Godzilla 2014 years ago was that the end of the movie clearly establishes that this Godzilla was going down the route of the 60s-70s Showa Godzilla. Kong Skull Island, while a very different movie in feel from 2014, also does not treat the titular monster so seriously and anthropomorphised Kong to no ones surpise.

Naturally, I felt that KOTM would have to have a feel somewhere in the middle between these films. Regarding the treatment of the kaiju in KoTM, I think it was a deliberate choice made by Doughtery and crew to build and present a mythos for the Titans. I think the Up From the Depths video on YouTube, the Kaijuvision podcast episode on the movie, and the features on the KOTM blu-ray explain this pretty well (I think the Antichrist imagery of Ghidorah's Alpha Call on top of the volcano is pretty blunt in showing this mythos). I think to some degree there has always been some degree of fantasy/mythos in the Godzilla universe, whether that is full-blown in the case of Mothra in all appearances, talks of legends of Ghidorah wiping out Venus in GTTHM, or the Odo Island legend of Godzilla in the original film. By calling the monsters Titans, the Monsterverse made a clear distinction that it was trying to label its monsters beyond "kaihu" and that there was something almost divine about them (the Greek mythological tie seems uncanny to me).

For better or worse, Godzilla vs. Kong continues down this road with somewhat cheesy ideas like giving Kong his own throne and a battle axe. The movie is clearly rooted in the feel of the 60s-70s Showa Era films. Now that we will have a gap in Monsterverse films for a couple of years (if more movies will be made), Legendary can now more naturally decide if it will keep going down the Showa route or if it will give the next set of movies a new feel. In summary, I do not feel that the changes made in KOTM to the Monsterverse were completely out of nowhere and are not unwarranted.

[ernesth100]

I feel exactly the same. The gripes people have with the MV are in general nothing more than preferences. We have no idea of Legendart's further plans and for all we know could be blow out of the water by their future films.