The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

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The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby Rhedosaurus » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:16 am

It's safe to say that with so many companies taking China's side in the Hong Kong protests, and with said companies facing quite a backlash from all political sides-right, left, and center- (The NBA has got ripped apart for this)that many might reconsider seeing Godzilla vs. Kong since Legendary has been a Chinese owned company for a while?

My question is how much will this affect the Godzillaverse?

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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby tyrantgoji » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:42 am

Well..that might be a problem. But I doubt it'll effect Godzilla ad a whole tho.

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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:21 am

Rhedosaurus wrote:It's safe to say that with so many companies taking China's side in the Hong Kong protests, and with said companies facing quite a backlash from all political sides-right, left, and center- (The NBA has got ripped apart for this)that many might reconsider seeing Godzilla vs. Kong since Legendary has been a Chinese owned company for a while?

My question is how much will this affect the Godzillaverse?

I hate to say this, and I hesitated to do so earlier, at risk of coming off as a conspiracy theorist, and possible xenophobic, I already had thought that KOTM was severely edited to mass appeal to China, or at least meet/get by censors.

-We have some famous Chinese actresses, which is fine, I don’t have an issue with that really. I still stand by that general diversity in films are a good thing.

-It’s very similar to a lot of other films that are big in China, such as the transformers series, loud and obnoxious.

-Additionally, even though KOTM wants to be critical of how humans consume and destroy the earth the film does not point out any direct examples, or show consumption directly to be a bad thing. China, other then countries like the United States, are massively responsible for the earths rising Co2 levels, and industry. Yet, a film so inherently tied to these issues doesn’t want to address the actual issue. That’s why I also think it’s watered down then what it could be.


-Ghidorah is portrayed as during the montage, as an”EASTERN DRAGON”. I criticized this a long time ago, but the film generalizes Asia as in Chinese culture, and says that in the east Dragons are a symbol of good luck. While this is partially true for japan, a lot of dragons are also super skreeonking bad and are horrible creatures which legendary warriors slay. Despite Ghidorah having direct ties to Yamato no Orochi I don’t think the film mentions that at all.

-Additionally, Mothra is chinese. Granted, Mothra was never explicitly Japanese, she was actually from some island in the pacific, but again, this feels like another “Chinesefication”.

-I feel dirty saying these words, it sounds like something Uber racist, but I’m just trying to say that the monsters in the film have been completely stripped of their Japanese origins.

-The film is completely devoid of any political commentary, something that’s actually really prevalent in Godzilla films. Most Godzilla films directly or indirectly criticize government agencies (while of course showing some good aspects as well), but KOTM is super gung ho about everything being awesome. G14 had this same sort of political conspiracy, or wrong doing, with the opening scenes and beginning with Joe Brody. Nothing like that present here.

-Also, while I don’t think this is intentional, I do think the drastic tonal shift towards nukes from G14 to KOTM was in part due to it being made for China. Not that China thinks that nukes are good, or anything for that matter, I just feel that Toho/Japanese film makers would never do the same thing. I also think that a purely American Godzilla film, 98/G14, would feel some sort of remorse for nukes given America and Japan’s history and as a result be more delicate in addressing such issues.

-I also mentioned Ghidorah, and Mothra, but another striking thing is how Japan, unless I’m wrong, isn’t mentioned once in the film. While I don’t think japan needs to be in each Godzilla film, G14 had no problem admitting to Godzilla’s Japanese origin. KOTM as a whole I don’t think brings up japan, other then maybe something from Serizawa.

Thank you for opening the flood gates but I realized how much KOTM is catered for China. I don’t think that’s why it’s bad or anything, but it’s so crystal clear now. It also made me realize how similar KOTM was to PR: Uprising. Lots of bizarrely in appropriate jokes, killing off the big Japanese star after completely shafting them, no sense of consequences for actions, nothing controversial...etc.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:53 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby DirektorSplennic » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:01 am

Personally, I don't think every incarnation of the classic Toho monsters going forward absolutely have to use their Japanese origins. I kinda like that Rodan is from Mexico and Mothra is from China. They don't have to be Japanese just for the sake of referencing their original creators.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby tyrantgoji » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:38 am

DirektorSplennic wrote:Personally, I don't think every incarnation of the classic Toho monsters going forward absolutely have to use their Japanese origins. I kinda like that Rodan is from Mexico and Mothra is from China. They don't have to be Japanese just for the sake of referencing their original creators.


Plus how weird would it be if every monster in the world came from one small country? I mean something like that could work if they explain it like "it was the birthplace of all of Earth's monsters and no place is like home !" or something but besides that,nah.

I do kinda agree with LSD tho. KOTM is clearly going for the Chinese market,but since that's one of the best places for movies that's kinda a good thing.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby G2000 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:11 am

This is something I've been thinking about for a while now, especially considering that GvK was filmed in (and if rumors are true, at least partially set in) Hong Kong. Not to sound doom and gloomy but think it's a fair possibility this film may not even hit theaters if the situation goes really sideways - and seeing as the protests have shown no signs of stopping, people have already been shot, businesses have been burnt, and that both Beijing and Carrie Lams's pro-PRC government have been increasingly signaling the potential of a military crackdown I'd say the likelihood of things going sideways is fairly high.

tyrantgoji wrote:
DirektorSplennic wrote:Personally, I don't think every incarnation of the classic Toho monsters going forward absolutely have to use their Japanese origins. I kinda like that Rodan is from Mexico and Mothra is from China. They don't have to be Japanese just for the sake of referencing their original creators.


Plus how weird would it be if every monster in the world came from one small country? I mean something like that could work if they explain it like "it was the birthplace of all of Earth's monsters and no place is like home !" or something but besides that,nah.

I do kinda agree with LSD tho. KOTM is clearly going for the Chinese market,but since that's one of the best places for movies that's kinda a good thing.


That's not really the issue at hand though; the issue at hand is that Western businesses hungry to snatch at one of the largest markets in the world are kowtowing to the demands of a dictatorial communist government - one that is currently involved in ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang and is the verge of launching a second Tiananmen '89 in Hong Kong - to the point that they have essentially allowed Beijing a level of control over our media.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby tyrantgoji » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:26 am

G2000 wrote:This is something I've been thinking about for a while now, especially considering that GvK was filmed in (and if rumors are true, at least partially set in) Hong Kong. Not to sound doom and gloomy but think it's a fair possibility this film may not even hit theaters if the situation goes really sideways - and seeing as the protests have shown no signs of stopping, people have already been shot, businesses have been burnt, and that both Beijing and Carrie Lams's pro-PRC government have been increasingly signaling the potential of a military crackdown I'd say the likelihood of things going sideways is fairly high.

tyrantgoji wrote:
DirektorSplennic wrote:Personally, I don't think every incarnation of the classic Toho monsters going forward absolutely have to use their Japanese origins. I kinda like that Rodan is from Mexico and Mothra is from China. They don't have to be Japanese just for the sake of referencing their original creators.


Plus how weird would it be if every monster in the world came from one small country? I mean something like that could work if they explain it like "it was the birthplace of all of Earth's monsters and no place is like home !" or something but besides that,nah.

I do kinda agree with LSD tho. KOTM is clearly going for the Chinese market,but since that's one of the best places for movies that's kinda a good thing.


That's not really the issue at hand though; the issue at hand is that Western businesses hungry to snatch at one of the largest markets in the world are kowtowing to the demands of a dictatorial communist government - one that is currently involved in ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang and is the verge of launching a second Tiananmen '89 in Hong Kong - to the point that they have essentially allowed Beijing a level of control over our media.


Okay forget what i said before,THAT'S a problem. Yeesh,China sounds absolutely terrible. :freak:

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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby DirektorSplennic » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 am

I forgot to mention how I do agree with LSD about KOTM pandering to the chinese market. My main point was simply that in the movie universe, classic Toho monsters should not have to always stick to their japanese origins in any way. It makes things refreshing.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby NSZ » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:32 am

LSD Jellyfish wrote:-It’s very similar to a lot of other films that are big in China, such as the transformers series, loud and obnoxious.


Also the in-thing in America, though I don't consider KOTM to be as loud and obnoxious as a Bay movie.

-Additionally, even though KOTM wants to be critical of how humans consume and destroy the earth the film does not point out any direct examples, or show consumption directly to be a bad thing. China, other then countries like the United States, are massively responsible for the earths rising Co2 levels, and industry. Yet, a film so inherently tied to these issues doesn’t want to address the actual issue. That’s why I also think it’s watered down then what it could be.


You expect way too much from an American blockbuster, regardless of whether it's pandering to China or not.

-Ghidorah is portrayed as during the montage, as an”EASTERN DRAGON”. I criticized this a long time ago, but the film generalizes Asia as in Chinese culture, and says that in the east Dragons are a symbol of good luck. While this is partially true for japan, a lot of dragons are also super skreeonking bad and are horrible creatures which legendary warriors slay. Despite Ghidorah having direct ties to Yamato no Orochi I don’t think the film mentions that at all.


That's... not what the context of that dialogue was? At all? How in the absolute skreeonk did you manage to read it that way? That shouldn't even be theoretically possible.

-Additionally, Mothra is chinese. Granted, Mothra was never explicitly Japanese, she was actually from some island in the pacific, but again, this feels like another “Chinesefication”.


So you're admitting right of the bat that this point is a reach, got it.

-I feel dirty saying these words, it sounds like something Uber racist, but I’m just trying to say that the monsters in the film have been completely stripped of their Japanese origins.


-_- I'm just gonna bookmark this point for one of your later points.

-The film is completely devoid of any political commentary, something that’s actually really prevalent in Godzilla films. Most Godzilla films directly or indirectly criticize government agencies (while of course showing some good aspects as well), but KOTM is super gung ho about everything being awesome. G14 had this same sort of political conspiracy, or wrong doing, with the opening scenes and beginning with Joe Brody. Nothing like that present here.


Oh yeah, it's not like the US military recklessly deployed an untested WMD, making the situation worse than it already was. No wait, that did happen.

-Also, while I don’t think this is intentional, I do think the drastic tonal shift towards nukes from G14 to KOTM was in part due to it being made for China. Not that China thinks that nukes are good, or anything for that matter, I just feel that Toho/Japanese film makers would never do the same thing. I also think that a purely American Godzilla film, 98/G14, would feel some sort of remorse for nukes given America and Japan’s history and as a result be more delicate in addressing such issues.


Gentle reminder that '98 had zero anti-nuke message to speak of.

-I also mentioned Ghidorah, and Mothra, but another striking thing is how Japan, unless I’m wrong, isn’t mentioned once in the film. While I don’t think japan needs to be in each Godzilla film, G14 had no problem admitting to Godzilla’s Japanese origin. KOTM as a whole I don’t think brings up japan, other then maybe something from Serizawa.


*ahem*

but I’m just trying to say that the monsters in the film have been completely stripped of their Japanese origins.


Clearly you skreeonking do.

Thank you for opening the flood gates but I realized how much KOTM is catered for China. I don’t think that’s why it’s bad or anything, but it’s so crystal clear now. It also made me realize how similar KOTM was to PR: Uprising. Lots of bizarrely in appropriate jokes, killing off the big Japanese star after completely shafting them, no sense of consequences for actions, nothing controversial...etc.


Confirmation Bias, a worse drug than nicotine. Also don't even skreeonking try comparing Serizawa's sacrifice to the absolutely abysmal treatment Mako got. Don't even.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby Terasawa » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:50 am

NSZ wrote:
-Additionally, even though KOTM wants to be critical of how humans consume and destroy the earth the film does not point out any direct examples, or show consumption directly to be a bad thing. China, other then countries like the United States, are massively responsible for the earths rising Co2 levels, and industry. Yet, a film so inherently tied to these issues doesn’t want to address the actual issue. That’s why I also think it’s watered down then what it could be.


You expect way too much from an American blockbuster, regardless of whether it's pandering to China or not.


I mean, he has a point. The film is clearly trying to have a message. LSD's point is that it doesn't set up the message well. If the filmmakers are going to try to preach to us then we, the audience, have a right to complain when they don't do it well.

-I also mentioned Ghidorah, and Mothra, but another striking thing is how Japan, unless I’m wrong, isn’t mentioned once in the film. While I don’t think japan needs to be in each Godzilla film, G14 had no problem admitting to Godzilla’s Japanese origin. KOTM as a whole I don’t think brings up japan, other then maybe something from Serizawa.


*ahem*

but I’m just trying to say that the monsters in the film have been completely stripped of their Japanese origins.


Clearly you skreeonking do.


You missed his point again. He's saying Japan (the country) doesn't have to be in every Godzilla movie.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby G2000 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:57 am

LSD Jellyfish wrote:I feel dirty saying these words, it sounds like something Uber racist


I don't think anyone thinks you're racist or bigoted for saying this sort of thing. China's influence over Hollywood has been a growing complaint for years now, and before he left Mr. Goji and Watch was a very vocal critic of China-pandering (to the point he incorporated the Tiananmen Square copypasta into his signature), but it's bubbling over now thanks to the increased focus on the Hong Kong crisis.

tyrantgoji wrote:Okay forget what i said before,THAT'S a problem. Yeesh,China sounds absolutely terrible. :freak:


I don't want to sound like "that guy" who looks down on the rubes for "not keeping up with the news," but I'm honestly sort of amazed you've managed to miss all the controversy over the Uyghur "reeducatioon camps" and the months of worsening protests in HK, especially now with the controversies over the NBA and now Blizzard after they banned a professional Hearthstone player and stripped him of his prize money due to his vocal support of the HK protestors.

NSZ wrote:SNIP

While I certainly don't agree with all of LSD's points, something I've been very vocal about (especially his weird and sort of self-contradicting arguments about Ghidorah being depicted as an Eastern dragon), you seem way more upset than is warranted.

I'd definitely say making Mothra and her Shobijin explicitly Chinese rather than from a Pacific Island is kind of China-pandering, especially since it seems to have been done largely to get a popular Chinese actress in there. I don't have that much of a problem with that in and of itself, but to deny that it's pretty much done to appeal to Chinese audiences is willful ignorance. There's also an argument to be made that MONARCH's presence in China and implied decades long cooperation between the PRC and MONARCH (as illustrated by the several generations of Chen twins) is also a sort of tacit pro-China message but that's a bit of a reach and another can of worms.

I will agree that Serizawa's sacrifice is incomparable to Mako's, but I would rank KoTM's treatment of Graham up there. While certainly not as severe as PRU's shafting of a main character, in both instances a talented actress gets quickly disposed of and is reduced to a cheap source of motivation that is quickly forgotten about.

And yeah, Japan is hardly even mentioned in KoTM. Serizawa's nationality is never brought up once to the best of my knowledge, and his history with Hiroshima isn't even mentioned. His father's watch is present, but it's only discussed in the context of a joke before seguing into a discussion about making peace with your demons before his sacrifice; while there is definitely some symbolic weight to that, the problem is that general audiences have largely forgotten about the watch's relevance in the five years since G14 so a lot of that symbolism is unfortunately lost (IIRC fake actually thought it was supposed to have been a gift from Graham).

I definitely wouldn't say KoTM was as nearly bad as PR:U, but there are admittedly some unfortunate similarities.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby NSZ » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:43 pm

Terasawa wrote:You missed his point again. He's saying Japan (the country) doesn't have to be in every Godzilla movie.


If that was his point, then I'll concede to that, but getting all worked up over Japan not getting mentioned is absolutely silly. If the story does not call for it, then the story does not call for it. I'd rather have Japan not mentioned at all than some random throwaway line that's about as egregiously tacked on as Rodan's alleged nuclear origins in his debut film.

G2000 wrote:While I certainly don't agree with all of LSD's points, something I've been very vocal about (especially his weird and sort of self-contradicting arguments about Ghidorah being depicted as an Eastern dragon), you seem way more upset than is warranted.


If I came off as more upset than warranted, I apologize. Poorly thought-out or just plain inaccurate criticism is something that I've had issues with for a while now, and my dislike for such things only intensified these past few months mostly in part due to personal reasons I'd rather not delve into.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:36 pm

My point about the Transformers series, was that in order for films to be massively appealing, they can’t raise any actual issues or criticisms in fear of being rejected by another nations laws/censors, or potentially infuriating the average movie goer in said region. As a result, movies made in America, with the intention of international appeal (which really means America/China, +everyone else) are going to be bogged down by dumb jokes, that while gross, are not critical of anything. I don’t want this thread to develop into an MCU hate train, but to an extent, the MCU films have the exact same issue, wherein in order to be massively appealingly they rarely actually criticize anything directly, beyond some crazed lunatic ranting.

My point about the film not being Japanese/being stripped of its Japanese identity, is that had you not known prior Godzilla is originally a Japanese franchise, you would have no clue that Godzilla has a Japanese origin. Not in the film, but in reality. It then becomes subsequently strange, when a big emphasis is placed upon Mothra being chinese. My point about Ghidorah, is just that in that scene, it feels like Asian cultures were lumped into one category, and that category/culture, would be what China considers to be a dragon.

Just compare KOTM to G14, and you’ll clearly see how G14 has no issue having a Japanese identity, while KOTM wants monsters that at its best are completely homogenized, and at its worst, are made to pander to China. G14 also feels way more classically “American” in that there’s a lot of cinematography referencing shots to Stevens Spielberg’s stuff.

KOTM is better then PRU, definitely, but I think a lot of them share the same problems, and tie into the earlier homogenization I was complaining about.

Id like to preference this post in that any of this is not a hill I want to die on. It’s just very casual thoughts I’ve had, and aren’t my main issues with the film, but I think it’s interesting to discuss it. I don’t know how much Wanda was involved in the production or creative control. It could all be coincidental.

To answer the OP:
I don’t think there will ever be anything remotely controversial compared to the NBA/Blizzard Fiasco. However, I’m not surprised that a few scenes in Kong Vs Godzilla take place within Hong Kong. And I guarantee you, if the next film has any actual criticisms of anything, they will be severely watered down.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby Destoroyah of Worlds » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:49 pm

The seize of Hong Kong is going to have serious ramifications outside of just movies under performing. I'm expecting serious long term recessions throughout most of the world if the situations escalates in combination with Trump's trade war and Brexit. Won't leave a lot of room for entertainment with all that going on.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby JesstrK » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:12 pm

Man if this turns out to be a good movie but fails due to political reasons I’m going to be very disappointed. But not surprised.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby G2000 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:22 pm

Destoroyah of Worlds wrote:The seize of Hong Kong is going to have serious ramifications outside of just movies under performing. I'm expecting serious long term recessions throughout most of the world if the situations escalates in combination with Trump's trade war and Brexit. Won't leave a lot of room for entertainment with all that going on.


Everyone here knows (or at least I’d like to think they do) that if the Chinese take HK by force the world is going to have much bigger problems than whether GvK does well or not, but it would certainly be unfortunate if this movie winds up becoming a casualty of real-world events out of the filmmaker’s control
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby UltramanGoji » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:27 pm

If the situation doesn't significantly worsen within the next five months, I think the worst that would happen for the film is it get delayed and be stricken with reshoots to a new location.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby G2000 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:34 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:If the situation doesn't significantly worsen within the next five months, I think the worst that would happen for the film is it get delayed and be stricken with reshoots to a new location.


I doubt they’ll even bother with reshoots, they haven’t so far
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby Destoroyah of Worlds » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:47 pm

G2000 wrote:
Destoroyah of Worlds wrote:The seize of Hong Kong is going to have serious ramifications outside of just movies under performing. I'm expecting serious long term recessions throughout most of the world if the situations escalates in combination with Trump's trade war and Brexit. Won't leave a lot of room for entertainment with all that going on.


Everyone here knows (or at least I’d like to think they do) that if the Chinese take HK by force the world is going to have much bigger problems than whether GvK does well or not, but it would certainly be unfortunate if this movie winds up becoming a casualty of real-world events out of the filmmaker’s control

It's unfortunate that could happen at the same time as Brexit and a trade war. These three things in tandem would crash the world economy.
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Re: The Hong Kong/China feud and the repercussions for GvK/the Godzillaverse.

Postby Rhedosaurus » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:18 pm

G2000 wrote:This is something I've been thinking about for a while now, especially considering that GvK was filmed in (and if rumors are true, at least partially set in) Hong Kong. Not to sound doom and gloomy but think it's a fair possibility this film may not even hit theaters if the situation goes really sideways - and seeing as the protests have shown no signs of stopping, people have already been shot, businesses have been burnt, and that both Beijing and Carrie Lams's pro-PRC government have been increasingly signaling the potential of a military crackdown I'd say the likelihood of things going sideways is fairly high.

tyrantgoji wrote:
DirektorSplennic wrote:Personally, I don't think every incarnation of the classic Toho monsters going forward absolutely have to use their Japanese origins. I kinda like that Rodan is from Mexico and Mothra is from China. They don't have to be Japanese just for the sake of referencing their original creators.


Plus how weird would it be if every monster in the world came from one small country? I mean something like that could work if they explain it like "it was the birthplace of all of Earth's monsters and no place is like home !" or something but besides that,nah.

I do kinda agree with LSD tho. KOTM is clearly going for the Chinese market,but since that's one of the best places for movies that's kinda a good thing.


That's not really the issue at hand though; the issue at hand is that Western businesses hungry to snatch at one of the largest markets in the world are kowtowing to the demands of a dictatorial communist government - one that is currently involved in ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang and is the verge of launching a second Tiananmen '89 in Hong Kong - to the point that they have essentially allowed Beijing a level of control over our media.



I knew that this had the potential to be Tiananmen Square 2.0, but I didn't know that the carnage was beginning via people getting shot and businesses getting burned.


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