What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Rhedosaurus » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:32 am

Orichalcum wrote:
king_ghidorah wrote:Just realized that this film was edited by the same guy who edited a majority of the Transformers movie and I think that shows

Last time I compared GKOTM to Transformers, someone here tried to jump my poop for it :lol:

But in all seriousness, yeah, that makes a whole lot more sense now why all the battles were such a mess.


Why would they hire the guy who worked for Bayformers to edit this movie? Didn't Legendary know how toxic Transformers has got as a movie brand?
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Orichalcum » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:38 am

No wonder the proper sense of weight went straight out the window
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby UltramanGoji » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:09 am

king_ghidorah wrote:Just realized that this film was edited by the same guy who edited a majority of the Transformers movie and I think that shows


This is a bit of a misnomer.

There were three editors for the film, only one has Transformers credits. The other two have works that range from the past two MonsterVerse films to stuff like Tremors 2, Muppets In Space, and Star Wars: The Last Jedi.
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby daveblackeye15 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:54 am

Even if it was all people that did the crappy Transformers movies it's still a huge improvement. Plus the only toilet humor was the Ghidorah name and the mention of Titan waste being great bio fuel, mind you Pacific Rim already did that.

And still I could follow the monster action waaaaay better than the Bayformers movies...Hm now I want to watch lovely Bumblebee again.

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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby master_of_monsters » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:08 pm

attilagodzilla wrote:
master_of_monsters wrote::facepalm: are we seriously comparing kotm to final wars of all things

well seeing how it is in my top 10 and I recently watched it and got more enjoyment out of it, yes I am.
Final wars for as bad as it is(wich I only noticed this time, last time I watched it was 12) managed to entertaine quite a bit..That's more than I can say of Kotm


we all got our preferences. I honestly like GMK the most out of all of them, with kotm and biollante tied for second
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby BioDestroyer » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:43 am

I haven't seen a Bayformer film in a long time and I stopped at the third one. That said, the camerawork was definitely an issue that I really hope they take a step back and work on. That said, someone mentioned the titan feces being a fertilizer which reminds me of a larger issue for me in the film.

In G14, Godzilla was definitely pushed to be the hero, though it was mostly subtle (albeit weird once or twice) until the end. In this film, he's the full blown savior of the world and Monarch has been pushing really hard to protect him as well as many other titans. This was all concluded with a message of humans finding a way to live in balance with these creatures and that we must live with them. But the issue is that when we talk about Godzilla, radiation is almost always along for the ride and it's really difficult to push living with creatures that irradiate everything they touch.

This isn't really talked about in any meaningful way and instead, we get a newspaper clipping in the credits about titan waste causing forest to regrow thanks to radiation. Was anyone else as confused as I was about this, in terms of it making any sense at all? I'm well aware that not all radiation will kill you in a few seconds or give you cancer after a few minutes BUT when talking about Godzilla, the radiation we're talking about usually isn't the harmless kind and just slapping that at the end seemed like a very strange way of trying to rush through this issue.

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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby GuardianGhido » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:50 am

BioDestroyer wrote:This isn't really talked about in any meaningful way and instead, we get a newspaper clipping in the credits about titan waste causing forest to regrow thanks to radiation. Was anyone else as confused as I was about this, in terms of it making any sense at all? I'm well aware that not all radiation will kill you in a few seconds or give you cancer after a few minutes BUT when talking about Godzilla, the radiation we're talking about usually isn't the harmless kind and just slapping that at the end seemed like a very strange way of trying to rush through this issue.

For this Godzilla though, it might very well be the harmless kind outside of his Atomic Breath or Nuclear Pulses. We all know radiation does not work the way it was explained in the film, so I'm guessing that titan radiation is a completely new form of undiscovered radiation that is quite different from any other radiation that we know of, maybe some fictional Omega Radiation which is purely beneficial for life and only found in Titans or something. maybe they'll toss it out there that it's how plant life first grew after the Earth cooled. It's confusing and unexplained so this seems like the most plausible way to handwave this.

Plius if Godzilla constantly leaks Alpha, Beta and Gamma radiation in high quantities like previous incarnations, the humans nearby him would all fall dead from radiation poisoning, which they don't. So Godzilla doesn't leak harmful radiation (though it can be detected in his body with Monarch's scanners and he probably does when he's going thermonuclear). Maybe he absorbs the normal 3 types of radiation and converts it into Omega Radiation that he leaks, kind of like trees taking Carbon Dioxyde and releasing Oxygen.
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby BioDestroyer » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:35 am

GuardianGhido wrote:For this Godzilla though, it might very well be the harmless kind outside of his Atomic Breath or Nuclear Pulses. We all know radiation does not work the way it was explained in the film, so I'm guessing that titan radiation is a completely new form of undiscovered radiation that is quite different from any other radiation that we know of, maybe some fictional Omega Radiation which is purely beneficial for life and only found in Titans or something. maybe they'll toss it out there that it's how plant life first grew after the Earth cooled. It's confusing and unexplained so this seems like the most plausible way to handwave this.

Plius if Godzilla constantly leaks Alpha, Beta and Gamma radiation in high quantities like previous incarnations, the humans nearby him would all fall dead from radiation poisoning, which they don't. So Godzilla doesn't leak harmful radiation (though it can be detected in his body with Monarch's scanners and he probably does when he's going thermonuclear). Maybe he absorbs the normal 3 types of radiation and converts it into Omega Radiation that he leaks, kind of like trees taking Carbon Dioxyde and releasing Oxygen.


This is part of the bigger problem, though. They have to address this sort of stuff in the film. It absolutely can't be hand-waved. It has to be talked about in a satisfactory way. For us fans to have to make up some sort of explanation for such a huge issue is a big problem. And if they want to use regenerative radiation, they'd better have thought that all the way through since most people's understanding of radiation has nothing to do with that and radiation in general doesn't do anything like that. This is especially true because outside of that one newspaper clipping that shows up for a few seconds in the credits, there's absolutely nothing in either this film or G14 that talks about these monsters and radiation in a positive light.

For example, we were told that these giant super-species come from a time in which the radiation levels on the Earth's surface were much higher than they are now. In response to those levels shrinking, many of them disappeared, died out, went into hibernation, or did something like Godzilla did----retreat closer to sources of high radiation. This was bolstered by the highly weakened Godzilla retreating to his lair that had radiation levels so high that they shredded robotic circuitry and would kill humans within minutes. This is not an environment that most living things can stand. Not to mention they nuked him which uses even more deadly radiation.

But even if we were to surmise that these creatures take in biologically harmful sources of radiation and output a less severe (or even regenerative, in this case) version this doesn't solve the issue that these creatures feed off of extreme radiation---the kind that is deadly to just about every other life form. As a biological base, we can't live together. It's like the extremophiles that can live in deep ocean vents and such. And if any of the monsters wants to make any area a sort of home that mirrors what was comfortable back in the days of super radiation on the Earth's surface, well we better hope we're nowhere near them. Or at the very least, we'd better hope they aren't monsters that can passively destroy us (like Rodan's flight sometimes producing winds strong enough to just about clear out a city of anything not bolted down or the MUTOs at times near constant EMP blasts).

Now there are certainly ways to get around the radiation issue but they just opted to not say or do anything about it aside from that newspaper clipping during the credits. They may even do that in the next film BUT it remains a pretty large issue in this film since it's so tied to one of their central themes.

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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Orichalcum » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:06 am

To think we'd live to see the day where in a Godzilla movie, nuclear bombs and radiation are glorified instead of feared.
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:44 am

The whole "well, his radiation is good!" is such a lazy cop out slapped onto the credits for to explain away how the nuke scene isn't painfully misguided.
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Orichalcum » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:52 am

The head canons that justify it are just as lousy, like sorry no matter how you spin it, it comes out distasteful.

It was a shitty plot element that needed fleshed out and reworked
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:00 am

The whole "radiation is good" mindset is also tied to myths about life flourishing in Chernobyl. It's a terrible mindset to have when the series is deeply rooted in anxiety over nuclear exposure.
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Orichalcum » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:12 am

It wouldn't make sense for America to push a non-nuclear agenda anyway. :P
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Sonic » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:25 pm

too much night battles. give us some day battles!

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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Mordern_Man » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:40 pm

I have lurked on this thread for awhile, but never bothered to actually make an account, and give my take, but I suppose now is as good of a time as any.

First I should say that I do actually enjoy KotM, and it is about middle of the pack tier for me in terms of Godzilla movies, but for it to be following 2014, which I personally find to be either my second, or first favorite Godzilla movie, it comes off as a huge letdown. I don’t like the excuse made for fans, but that just about sums up my thoughts on the new movie, all of its strongest positives come from either using G-fan’s nostalgia, or just recycling plot elements from previous Godzilla films. I absolutely adore 2014, but I will concede that it struggled to connect with general audiences, or G-fans, it was a bit divisive. Godzilla isn’t a big deal in the west, and honestly, not really that much of a big deal in Asia anymore, so for this franchise to work it needs to create new fans. 2014 wasn’t populist enough, it was too “artsy” (which is why I loved it), KotM needed to be Iron Man, take a not well established character and make them gel with audiences, not just try to appease the very small amount of G-fans there are. So speaking in terms of franchise building, and continuing the monsterverse that’s my biggest complaint, but as a movie in general, oh boy. I really think the critics had a point.

Again I don’t hate this movie, but it absolutely struggles at nearly every point narratively. First and foremost I think the idea of connecting to 2014 via the opening was a great idea (I also am in that scene! I’m the guy who is running right behind Emma’s head before it cuts to the close-up of Mark), but it was sloppily executed. I don’t want to praise Batman vs Superman, or start some DC flamewar here, but the way it connected itself to Man of Steel was pretty great. I wish the movie gave more time to establish who Andrew was, what was happening, and have more of that chaos, only then to kill Andrew. His death scene was very sloppy, and I still don’t know exactly what happened to him. However in the end, I have kind of realized that the movie really didn’t need Mark, Emma, or Madison. Mark undercut every scene he was in by being able to do anything, and constantly stealing the spotlight, and Emma might just be the most poorly written villain I have ever scene. A movie like this doesn’t need humans to let the monsters free, let alone people as poorly motivated as Emma. And while Madison didn’t bug me, her character was pretty much pointless and I hated how the final battle was intercut with her family trying to find her.

Going back to Emma though, serosuly her whole plot was uneeded and stupid. Have Ghidorah wake up because the ice-caps are melting or something like that, it works better with the messages the movie is trying to give off, and it feels much more realistic. 2014 felt like this all was happening in our world, it didn’t need human villains, just a never ending sequence of human errors. Even Skull Island which has Col. Packard as a villain still felt grounded enough because it was just a Moby Dick situation, and Packard’s motivations were understandable. KotM tonally felt like it was in the off brand MCU. Same goes for it’s weird borderline American Propaganda attitude. I don’t want to get political, and in the end I don’t really mind some good old Team America whatever, but I found the use of Godzilla and his relation to nuclear weapons in this movie to be deeply disturbing. I mean, just the whole idea that he is brought back to life by a nuke (by Serizawa nonetheless), and then immediately storms Boston in tandem with the US Navy, and saves the day with an “Atomic Pulse”, just really makes me uncomfortable. I am fine with Godzilla being a hero, I am fine with him fighting alongside the US, but I am not fine with how this movie portrays nukes. One of the many things I love about 2014, that I often feel like is highly overlooked, is that the choice to use Nukes is what sets up the entire conflict in the third act. If we didn’t intervene with nature’s order none of the film’s problems would have happened, from the mine awaking the MUTOs, to the Powerplant luring them, to the nuke, it was all our fault. Sure we wake up Ghidorah in KotM, but it’s the bad guys doing it, not our incompetence, and in the end the day is saved with nukes. Also the whole “good radiation” and life fallowing it and all that was so skreeonking off base, seriously.

And again, say what you want about 2014, but this film is its sequel, it is in the same universe, and it has to respect it’s legacy. I didn’t mind that they took Monarch, which was ratty and underfunded, and turned it into Shield lite, though I do wish the tech was toned down a bit, and I do think that there were moments where the film felt connected tonely and stylistically, but on the flipside, this movie sometimes really seemed like it was ashamed of being a sequel. And in no place more than its handling of the returning cast.

This is me being petty, and my bias, but nothing in the movie pissed me off more than what they did to Vivianne Graham. One of my issues with 2014 is how they underused Sally Hawkins, it was clear she was written in last minute, however she was very vocal that she wanted a bigger part in the universe, and since she is an Oscar nominated actress, and just an all around fantastic, it should have been a no brainer to make her one of the faces of the franchise. Nope. She gets killed after 40 minutes, in one of the most blinks or you’ll miss it death scenes I have ever seen. Say what you want about Cranston dying, but his death made sense to the film’s message; it isn’t humanities place to mess with nature, he was trying to understand the MUTOs, which wasn’t his place so he paid the price. Very lovecraftian. However not only did his death make narrative sense, it also happened over two scenes, and he brought up several times later in the movie. Hawkins was there, and then she wasn’t, and it really killed the movie for me. It should have been her who Serizawa gave the notes to, not Mark, and it should have been her saying “this time we join the fight”. Just talk about awful writing, directing, and choices (also Dougherty laughed about her death on the commentary, and made fun of it, but that’s a whole other can of worms).

To a much lesser extent I feel similar about the treatment of Stenz and Serizawa. I really liked Stenz in the first movie, his character wasn’t a trigger happy commando, and had to make some tough choices, and when he made the wrong ones he put his faith in Serizawa and Godzilla. I was really happy to see him return, but not only is he barely in KotM, but he basically does the opposite of what he did in the first movie. He nearly kills Godzilla, and then gives a speech where he is then mocked by Chen. It would have been really nice to have him be the person in the military defending Monarch and finishing the development he had in the first film. As for Serizawa, he was okay in this, I just wish he was the focus, not Mark.

That all said I will take a moment to stop trashing this movie and give it some praise. I actually did like all of the secondary characters, especially Dr. Stanton. I feel like I should have hated him as I don’t like forced comic relief, and I don’t particularly like Rick from Rick and Morty (who he was based on), but I often found his character saying what I was thinking. These kinds of movies need characters, and since it isn’t going the way 2014 did, by having the lead be a surrogate for the audience, it is nice for some of the cast to be relatable and entertaining. The movie really should have been focused on Monarch, and their efforts to stop a newly awakened Ghidorah, and maybe find and revive Godzilla who has been dormant since 2014. Cut out the ORCA, cut out the Russels and the terrorists, make a story about a man working with nature to stop an invasive species.

I have a billion more complaints about the way the film was shot, the lack of proper action, and other stuff, but I’ll save that for later if people are interested. In the end, being a fan of this franchise I did find this movie entertaining, but it isn’t (and didn’t) win that many non fans over, when it really could and should have.

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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby SteveMartinLives » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:03 pm

Mordern_Man wrote:I have lurked on this thread for awhile, but never bothered to actually make an account, and give my take, but I suppose now is as good of a time as any.

First I should say that I do actually enjoy KotM, and it is about middle of the pack tier for me in terms of Godzilla movies, but for it to be following 2014, which I personally find to be either my second, or first favorite Godzilla movie, it comes off as a huge letdown. I don’t like the excuse made for fans, but that just about sums up my thoughts on the new movie, all of its strongest positives come from either using G-fan’s nostalgia, or just recycling plot elements from previous Godzilla films. I absolutely adore 2014, but I will concede that it struggled to connect with general audiences, or G-fans, it was a bit divisive. Godzilla isn’t a big deal in the west, and honestly, not really that much of a big deal in Asia anymore, so for this franchise to work it needs to create new fans. 2014 wasn’t populist enough, it was too “artsy” (which is why I loved it), KotM needed to be Iron Man, take a not well established character and make them gel with audiences, not just try to appease the very small amount of G-fans there are. So speaking in terms of franchise building, and continuing the monsterverse that’s my biggest complaint, but as a movie in general, oh boy. I really think the critics had a point.

Again I don’t hate this movie, but it absolutely struggles at nearly every point narratively. First and foremost I think the idea of connecting to 2014 via the opening was a great idea (I also am in that scene! I’m the guy who is running right behind Emma’s head before it cuts to the close-up of Mark), but it was sloppily executed. I don’t want to praise Batman vs Superman, or start some DC flamewar here, but the way it connected itself to Man of Steel was pretty great. I wish the movie gave more time to establish who Andrew was, what was happening, and have more of that chaos, only then to kill Andrew. His death scene was very sloppy, and I still don’t know exactly what happened to him. However in the end, I have kind of realized that the movie really didn’t need Mark, Emma, or Madison. Mark undercut every scene he was in by being able to do anything, and constantly stealing the spotlight, and Emma might just be the most poorly written villain I have ever scene. A movie like this doesn’t need humans to let the monsters free, let alone people as poorly motivated as Emma. And while Madison didn’t bug me, her character was pretty much pointless and I hated how the final battle was intercut with her family trying to find her.

Going back to Emma though, serosuly her whole plot was uneeded and stupid. Have Ghidorah wake up because the ice-caps are melting or something like that, it works better with the messages the movie is trying to give off, and it feels much more realistic. 2014 felt like this all was happening in our world, it didn’t need human villains, just a never ending sequence of human errors. Even Skull Island which has Col. Packard as a villain still felt grounded enough because it was just a Moby Dick situation, and Packard’s motivations were understandable. KotM tonally felt like it was in the off brand MCU. Same goes for it’s weird borderline American Propaganda attitude. I don’t want to get political, and in the end I don’t really mind some good old Team America whatever, but I found the use of Godzilla and his relation to nuclear weapons in this movie to be deeply disturbing. I mean, just the whole idea that he is brought back to life by a nuke (by Serizawa nonetheless), and then immediately storms Boston in tandem with the US Navy, and saves the day with an “Atomic Pulse”, just really makes me uncomfortable. I am fine with Godzilla being a hero, I am fine with him fighting alongside the US, but I am not fine with how this movie portrays nukes. One of the many things I love about 2014, that I often feel like is highly overlooked, is that the choice to use Nukes is what sets up the entire conflict in the third act. If we didn’t intervene with nature’s order none of the film’s problems would have happened, from the mine awaking the MUTOs, to the Powerplant luring them, to the nuke, it was all our fault. Sure we wake up Ghidorah in KotM, but it’s the bad guys doing it, not our incompetence, and in the end the day is saved with nukes. Also the whole “good radiation” and life fallowing it and all that was so skreeonking off base, seriously.

And again, say what you want about 2014, but this film is its sequel, it is in the same universe, and it has to respect it’s legacy. I didn’t mind that they took Monarch, which was ratty and underfunded, and turned it into Shield lite, though I do wish the tech was toned down a bit, and I do think that there were moments where the film felt connected tonely and stylistically, but on the flipside, this movie sometimes really seemed like it was ashamed of being a sequel. And in no place more than its handling of the returning cast.

This is me being petty, and my bias, but nothing in the movie pissed me off more than what they did to Vivianne Graham. One of my issues with 2014 is how they underused Sally Hawkins, it was clear she was written in last minute, however she was very vocal that she wanted a bigger part in the universe, and since she is an Oscar nominated actress, and just an all around fantastic, it should have been a no brainer to make her one of the faces of the franchise. Nope. She gets killed after 40 minutes, in one of the most blinks or you’ll miss it death scenes I have ever seen. Say what you want about Cranston dying, but his death made sense to the film’s message; it isn’t humanities place to mess with nature, he was trying to understand the MUTOs, which wasn’t his place so he paid the price. Very lovecraftian. However not only did his death make narrative sense, it also happened over two scenes, and he brought up several times later in the movie. Hawkins was there, and then she wasn’t, and it really killed the movie for me. It should have been her who Serizawa gave the notes to, not Mark, and it should have been her saying “this time we join the fight”. Just talk about awful writing, directing, and choices (also Dougherty laughed about her death on the commentary, and made fun of it, but that’s a whole other can of worms).

To a much lesser extent I feel similar about the treatment of Stenz and Serizawa. I really liked Stenz in the first movie, his character wasn’t a trigger happy commando, and had to make some tough choices, and when he made the wrong ones he put his faith in Serizawa and Godzilla. I was really happy to see him return, but not only is he barely in KotM, but he basically does the opposite of what he did in the first movie. He nearly kills Godzilla, and then gives a speech where he is then mocked by Chen. It would have been really nice to have him be the person in the military defending Monarch and finishing the development he had in the first film. As for Serizawa, he was okay in this, I just wish he was the focus, not Mark.

That all said I will take a moment to stop trashing this movie and give it some praise. I actually did like all of the secondary characters, especially Dr. Stanton. I feel like I should have hated him as I don’t like forced comic relief, and I don’t particularly like Rick from Rick and Morty (who he was based on), but I often found his character saying what I was thinking. These kinds of movies need characters, and since it isn’t going the way 2014 did, by having the lead be a surrogate for the audience, it is nice for some of the cast to be relatable and entertaining. The movie really should have been focused on Monarch, and their efforts to stop a newly awakened Ghidorah, and maybe find and revive Godzilla who has been dormant since 2014. Cut out the ORCA, cut out the Russels and the terrorists, make a story about a man working with nature to stop an invasive species.

I have a billion more complaints about the way the film was shot, the lack of proper action, and other stuff, but I’ll save that for later if people are interested. In the end, being a fan of this franchise I did find this movie entertaining, but it isn’t (and didn’t) win that many non fans over, when it really could and should have.


All valid. Thanks for sharing. I also totally agree with your story revisions. That would have fit much better with the series as a whole thematically. Rather than what the movie turned out to be... Which is essentially turn-brain-off popcorn fun. Could have been much more.

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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Orichalcum » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:35 pm

Fantastic points Modern_Man, I agree 1000% and would love to hear anything else you have to say about this film.
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Komenja » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:38 pm

Mordern_Man wrote:-literally everything you just said-

Yeah, you've pretty much articulated all my complaints way better than I ever could have. Would love to read more.
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby Fish Cakes » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 pm

If the monster's names are based on these pretentious species names "Titanus mosura", "Titanus scylla", etc, then they shouldn't be capitalized as with all taxonomic names. Why are they all in the same Genus anyway?
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szmigiel
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Re: What Are Your Complaints About KOTM?

Postby szmigiel » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:27 am

After finally getting to see it on blu-ray I can confirm my major issue with the film is it is only good on the surface. If you take each scene at face value and just go with the flow, it's an enjoyable film. But if you think too much about the actions and motivations it really starts to fall apart quickly. It really leaves you questioning why things are happening, the cause and effect makes little sense.

It is like the director wanted to surprise the audience as much as possible with little things, but ends up making everything a huge mess.

Just take the whole Mothra waking up.
Mothra is awaking, the ORCA is tested and works. But bad guys show up and kill everyone, looks like they are kidnapping Emma and Maddy. On face value thats okay. But later we learn Emma is working with the bad guys, this is all done to fool the audience that is a kidnapping, so when Emma sets off the explosives in Antartica it is a shock. Why where the bad guys attacking before the ORCA was tested, how were they so ready to strike were they hiding nearby just waiting? Why would she go along with a plan that kills pretty much everyone she works with? She could have just walked out with the ORCA after it worked.

Another question is why is Godzilla headed to Antarctic after his dominance display? Ghidorah is still in ice, the ORCA was tested in China and isn't broadcasting.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak.


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