Toho Kingdom

I liked how Ghidorah hovered over the city while chasing Emma, reminded me of Heisei Ghidorah, however a complaint of mine would be that he looked too "Attached with wires", like the Toho films used suits so it made sense, but in that one scene he was flapping his wings a bit too slow and a bit too low to have any sort of ability to float.

Maybe it was a reference to the infamous slow flap/steady hover of every flying Kaiju in Godzilla?

The sheer level of trolling in this thread atm is kinda crazy.

How much more personality could they have possibly given creatures that can't talk in this film? It's not reading too much into it when the film makers deliberately made the creatures as expressive as possible. That's no easy task without the facial features Kong has to enhance the effectiveness of such animation, and this is the only place on the internet where I lurk where I've seen that complaint for this film.

I'm with LC on this one - the film has flaws you can pick at without making up new ones to be obtuse. :xilien:

Lmao no ones trolling, I was simply pointing out Ghidorah’s sheer level of incompetence which is apparent all throughout the film, and you can argue against it all you want- I can easily counter anything said

_JNavs_ wrote:Maybe it was a reference to the infamous slow flap/steady hover of every flying Kaiju in Godzilla?

Why is Dougherty such a cringe Heisei fan

Orichalcum wrote:Lmao no ones trolling, I was simply pointing out Ghidorah’s sheer level of incompetence which is apparent all throughout the film, and you can argue against it all you want- I can easily counter anything said

Can you counter that Ghidorah's sadism caused him to prolong his kills as explicitly referred to the novel where his supposed "incompetence" at destroying the osprey was mentioned as him being easily able to crush it in one bite, but purposely toying with his victims in order to savor their terror?

Living Corpse wrote:Oh bullshit.

We've seen him do plenty of evil things. He smacks around an osprey and humans he can easily crush, he eats a human in the middle of a battle with Godzilla, he tells the Titans to destroy the world, he even skreeonks with Emma by chasing her slowly when he could have blasted her or crushed her from the get go. He leaves Godzilla for dead to suffer instead of just killing him right away. Sometimes I think you guys are trying to hard to make up flaws instead of looking for ones that exist.

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Not sure where the animosity is coming from, neither do I know who you mean by "you guys" but OK. I'll just ignore that and address what you brought up.

Osprey---you mean right after he kills the soldiers, yeah? Him investigating something he had never seen before doesn't come across to me as malevolent, neither is him eating humans in front of him. Not particularly out of the ordinary for animals, if they're carnivorous, to see if they can eat something smaller than them or if they can eat it at all.

Telling titans to destroy the world----he roared and then they woke up. It was the humans who told us that he's saying destroy the world. We didn't get anything from him roaring and we barely saw the other monsters do anything anyway. Would they of done something different if it wasn't Ghidorah waking them up? The MUTOs of the last film were causing extensive destruction just trying to breed which would've led to the destruction of human civilization if they had succeeded. They weren't said to be the devil---antagonists, yeah, but more like animals that had a goal directly in contrast to humanity's survival. So even if the monsters are doing what they're doing on his "orders" does that make him much different than the MUTOs in that regard? There's a difference between an antagonistic force and a malevolent one with the latter clearly having an understanding that their actions are bringing about horrible consequences and reveling in it and that's not what the movie really portrayed. We got the gist that he wanted to terraform Earth (which, honestly, I'm not 100% sure is from the movie itself and may also be from outside sources) but it's the knowing and way he does things. I mean, it's a little odd that we know that's what he's doing when they barely know he's an alien and apparently know nothing of his biology (for example, we get a lot more info about Ghidorah outside of the movie than we do from any of the Monarch people in it who seem to be completely oblivious to what he is). Like, what specifically is his order? This can touch upon another issue that's mostly separate but I'll leave that for later.

Emma---you mean when she's playing the alpha signal? Did it not seem like the alpha signal has some sort of weird, hypnotic effect on Ghidorah? When it played the first time, he literally dropped what he was doing (investigating the ship) and looked at the escaping Emma and company. When it got turned off, the middle head stopped immediately and shook his head around as if he was trying to shake some sort of daze or something like that. The next two times it's turned on it has a similar effect with him heading straight towards the stadium and then later with him literally dropping Godzilla and chasing a truck. So that seems suspect to me. I mean, I know the objective is to use the alpha sound to make him think there's another powerful challenger but the way it just immediately snaps his attention makes it seem like there's more to it than that.

I'm just here for discussion but if you don't want to discuss it with me that's fine. I just saw an opportunity to bring it up and learn from other perspectives. I'm pretty sure I've been generally respectful to whomever I've interacted with on here but if I've offended you or anyone else, please tell me and I'll be sure to address it.

GuardianGhido wrote:He also pulled Rodan apart by his wings and enjoyed his helplessness for a few seconds before charging up and blasting him out of the sky, clearly enjoyed giving the humans a good scare before going after Rodan, stalked and terrified Madison despite seeing exactly where she it, smashing up his surroundings just to scare her, even destroying the ORCA and very purposefull letting her know that it's not what he's after before prolonging the moment by charging up all three beams to overkill a single human, slowly went over to the fallen Godzilla to finish him off while he's down, killed Mothra just when she got close to give her some false hope before snatching it away, drained Burning Godzilla slowly, changing biting positions to cause him further pain, and purposely aimed a little behind the jeep Emma was on so that she survives a bit longer and he can grin at her. I say this Ghidorah shows his sadism and malevolence more than any other incarnation possibly barring GKG. It's why he's one of my favorite Ghidorahs.

Rodan and Ghidorah were having a fight in mid-air. Ghidorah eliminated Rodan's greatest asset (his wings) with two heads and then blasted him. How is that any more malevolent than anything Godzilla has done? I seem to remember him stomping on the female MUTO's throat and looking down at her with malice or at least clear anger. I also think you're reaching a little bit in saying he was aiming to scare the humans. Unless he has some sort of radar (like Shin Godzilla) and knew that the thing heading towards him was full of people there's no way he could've known the giant plane was flying straight towards him and that he'd have an opportunity to scare them. Remember, he was heading towards Rodan and the humans were leading Rodan straight towards Ghidorah. If he were to say, after Rodan ceded hegemony to him, attack him anyway and then even grievously injure him while clearly enjoying the pain it was instilling (note that in this instance Rodan is bereft of threat) we'd have a much stronger case that Ghidorah was more than just being dominant (or at the very least, his dominance had a mean streak beyond what may be normal for animals).

Also, him purposely scaring Madison seemed more like him trying to figure out where the alpha sound was coming from (remember, she had hooked up the device to the large speakers that surrounded the entire stadium). Yeah, he saw Madison but did he know she was the source of them immediately? And of course, he wouldn't of known she escaped as he was attacking the building until he saw her outside. Him continuing to kill her just seems a matter of course to eliminate threats (since, as far as he could tell, she may of been causing the alpha sounds). The killing of Mothra and attacking Godzilla seems like an odd objection to me. It's not like Mothra was a neutral force. She came out of nowhere and attacked Ghidorah earlier (which is why he called for Rodan's help) and the later on, she was clearly going in to attack Ghidorah. I don't know what else he'd do in that situation other than attack and eliminate aggressors. And him biting Godzilla didn't seem like the goal was causing pain as much as getting as much energy as possible from him via draining (and yeah, Godzilla was down but....I mean, what else would a rival/predator do in that situation other than kill an opponent that is in a weakened state?). It's not like animals in general are very nice to their enemies. Plenty of predators eat their prey alive by ripping them to shreds or even slowly eating them. Even certain herbivores can be quite vicious in dealing with even perceived threats, let alone actual ones. For example, a pissed off elephant will do anything in its power to demolish a human being even if they don't have any weapons (and the disparity in power between the two is obviously enormous).

Basically, most of what Ghidorah did seemed like anything a normal violent predator (or even animal, I suppose) would do. Cautiously investigating new items in their territory, finding a home via whatever means necessary, eliminating challengers (not to say that there aren't animals that seem to have particularly nasty mean streaks but that you have to take certain steps in showing an animal as malevolent as opposed to just an animal and I feel that they could've done more here as, again, most of these examples don't seem like something just about any other animal would've done differently). Again, even Godzilla in these films was often pretty brutal in his take downs and attacks, in many instances comparable to whatever King Ghidorah has done. If they were more deliberate and measured in showing his malevolence, I think it'd be a lot more telling. Or even if we had more info. I remember reading in a Cerasini novel where King Ghidorah carries off a kaiju (a giant rattlesnake) and later shows up with its rattle and drops it near other monsters, cackling all the while. Something like that---a clear expression of malice and enjoyment with seemingly no real purpose---was mostly lacking. Thanks for reading this far, if you have.

I personally don't see how anyone here is "making up flaws". Some people just saw things differently and didn't like it. Far as i'm concerned -and i'm sorry if this comes across as skreoonkish- but i think you guys are getting a little bias towards this movie. Maybe you can just politely tell why someone thinks that way instead of calling bullpoop?

I also fail to see why some got riled up with the car chase and 98 comparison. He never even said it was a flaw in the movie! And it's chalk full of easter eggs anywho so what's a 98 one gonna harm?

BioDestroyer wrote:

Living Corpse wrote:Oh bullshit.

We've seen him do plenty of evil things. He smacks around an osprey and humans he can easily crush, he eats a human in the middle of a battle with Godzilla, he tells the Titans to destroy the world, he even skreeonks with Emma by chasing her slowly when he could have blasted her or crushed her from the get go. He leaves Godzilla for dead to suffer instead of just killing him right away. Sometimes I think you guys are trying to hard to make up flaws instead of looking for ones that exist.

?

Not sure where the animosity is coming from, neither do I know who you mean by "you guys" but OK. I'll just ignore that and address what you brought up.

Osprey---you mean right after he kills the soldiers, yeah? Him investigating something he had never seen before doesn't come across to me as malevolent, neither is him eating humans in front of him. Not particularly out of the ordinary for animals, if they're carnivorous, to see if they can eat something smaller than them or if they can eat it at all.

Telling titans to destroy the world----he roared and then they woke up. It was the humans who told us that he's saying destroy the world. We didn't get anything from him roaring and we barely saw the other monsters do anything anyway. Would they of done something different if it wasn't Ghidorah waking them up? The MUTOs of the last film were causing extensive destruction just trying to breed which would've led to the destruction of human civilization if they had succeeded. They weren't said to be the devil---antagonists, yeah, but more like animals that had a goal directly in contrast to humanity's survival. So even if the monsters are doing what they're doing on his "orders" does that make him much different than the MUTOs in that regard? There's a difference between an antagonistic force and a malevolent one with the latter clearly having an understanding that their actions are bringing about horrible consequences and reveling in it and that's not what the movie really portrayed. We got the gist that he wanted to terraform Earth (which, honestly, I'm not 100% sure is from the movie itself and may also be from outside sources) but it's the knowing and way he does things. I mean, it's a little odd that we know that's what he's doing when they barely know he's an alien and apparently know nothing of his biology (for example, we get a lot more info about Ghidorah outside of the movie than we do from any of the Monarch people in it who seem to be completely oblivious to what he is). Like, what specifically is his order? This can touch upon another issue that's mostly separate but I'll leave that for later.

Emma---you mean when she's playing the alpha signal? Did it not seem like the alpha signal has some sort of weird, hypnotic effect on Ghidorah? When it played the first time, he literally dropped what he was doing (investigating the ship) and looked at the escaping Emma and company. When it got turned off, the middle head stopped immediately and shook his head around as if he was trying to shake some sort of daze or something like that. The next two times it's turned on it has a similar effect with him heading straight towards the stadium and then later with him literally dropping Godzilla and chasing a truck. So that seems suspect to me. I mean, I know the objective is to use the alpha sound to make him think there's another powerful challenger but the way it just immediately snaps his attention makes it seem like there's more to it than that.

I'm just here for discussion but if you don't want to discuss it with me that's fine. I just saw an opportunity to bring it up and learn from other perspectives. I'm pretty sure I've been generally respectful to whomever I've interacted with on here but if I've offended you or anyone else, please tell me and I'll be sure to address it.

GuardianGhido wrote:He also pulled Rodan apart by his wings and enjoyed his helplessness for a few seconds before charging up and blasting him out of the sky, clearly enjoyed giving the humans a good scare before going after Rodan, stalked and terrified Madison despite seeing exactly where she it, smashing up his surroundings just to scare her, even destroying the ORCA and very purposefull letting her know that it's not what he's after before prolonging the moment by charging up all three beams to overkill a single human, slowly went over to the fallen Godzilla to finish him off while he's down, killed Mothra just when she got close to give her some false hope before snatching it away, drained Burning Godzilla slowly, changing biting positions to cause him further pain, and purposely aimed a little behind the jeep Emma was on so that she survives a bit longer and he can grin at her. I say this Ghidorah shows his sadism and malevolence more than any other incarnation possibly barring GKG. It's why he's one of my favorite Ghidorahs.

Rodan and Ghidorah were having a fight in mid-air. Ghidorah eliminated Rodan's greatest asset (his wings) with two heads and then blasted him. How is that any more malevolent than anything Godzilla has done? I seem to remember him stomping on the female MUTO's throat and looking down at her with malice or at least clear anger. I also think you're reaching a little bit in saying he was aiming to scare the humans. Unless he has some sort of radar (like Shin Godzilla) and knew that the thing heading towards him was full of people there's no way he could've known the giant plane was flying straight towards him and that he'd have an opportunity to scare them. Remember, he was heading towards Rodan and the humans were leading Rodan straight towards Ghidorah. If he were to say, after Rodan ceded hegemony to him, attack him anyway and then even grievously injure him while clearly enjoying the pain it was instilling (note that in this instance Rodan is bereft of threat) we'd have a much stronger case that Ghidorah was more than just being dominant (or at the very least, his dominance had a mean streak beyond what may be normal for animals).

Also, him purposely scaring Madison seemed more like him trying to figure out where the alpha sound was coming from (remember, she had hooked up the device to the large speakers that surrounded the entire stadium). Yeah, he saw Madison but did he know she was the source of them immediately? And of course, he wouldn't of known she escaped as he was attacking the building until he saw her outside. Him continuing to kill her just seems a matter of course to eliminate threats (since, as far as he could tell, she may of been causing the alpha sounds). The killing of Mothra and attacking Godzilla seems like an odd objection to me. It's not like Mothra was a neutral force. She came out of nowhere and attacked Ghidorah earlier (which is why he called for Rodan's help) and the later on, she was clearly going in to attack Ghidorah. I don't know what else he'd do in that situation other than attack and eliminate aggressors. And him biting Godzilla didn't seem like the goal was causing pain as much as getting as much energy as possible from him via draining (and yeah, Godzilla was down but....I mean, what else would a rival/predator do in that situation other than kill an opponent that is in a weakened state?). It's not like animals in general are very nice to their enemies. Plenty of predators eat their prey alive by ripping them to shreds or even slowly eating them. Even certain herbivores can be quite vicious in dealing with even perceived threats, let alone actual ones. For example, a pissed off elephant will do anything in its power to demolish a human being even if they don't have any weapons (and the disparity in power between the two is obviously enormous).

Basically, most of what Ghidorah did seemed like anything a normal violent predator (or even animal, I suppose) would do. Cautiously investigating new items in their territory, finding a home via whatever means necessary, eliminating challengers (not to say that there aren't animals that seem to have particularly nasty mean streaks but that you have to take certain steps in showing an animal as malevolent as opposed to just an animal and I feel that they could've done more here as, again, most of these examples don't seem like something just about any other animal would've done differently). Again, even Godzilla in these films was often pretty brutal in his take downs and attacks, in many instances comparable to whatever King Ghidorah has done. If they were more deliberate and measured in showing his malevolence, I think it'd be a lot more telling. Or even if we had more info. I remember reading in a Cerasini novel where King Ghidorah carries off a kaiju (a giant rattlesnake) and later shows up with its rattle and drops it near other monsters, cackling all the while. Something like that---a clear expression of malice and enjoyment with seemingly no real purpose---was mostly lacking. Thanks for reading this far, if you have.

Hmmm, while your analysis is certainly quite detailed and I'll have to give you kudos for it, the novelization explicitly referred to Ghidorah's actions being done out of malevolence and sadism other than necessity. ("Ghidorah’s eyes sparkled with dark, malicious glee as he regarded the ethereal cloud that was all that remained of Mothra. It wasn’t the expression of one animal that had bested another, or of a predator regarding its prey. Ghidorah enjoyed killing. He lived for it.")

Humans by themselves aren't even the slightest threat to any Kaiju of his size or strength, you don't go out of your way to stomp on every ant you see unless you want to, as seen by Godzilla and most other Kaijus ignoring humans unless they really do something bad with their machines. Even Rodan, one of the more aggressive titans, didn't start chasing the Argo and smashing up fighters until they shot missiles at him. Meanwhile, Ghidorah just looked at the humans and their flashy sticks that weren't affecting him enough to even notice and decided to kill them all for the heck of it and even went after humans that didn't attack him who were just trying to escape. I don't think he'd regard all the humans around him as "threats" from a bunch of assault rifle bullets fired by a couple of soldiers he easily vaporized so he went after them for other reasons. He also often pauses to give his victim vicious grins before actually attacking them, something a predator wouldn't bother to do towards prey. He even wastes energy by using his Gravity Beams to vaporize a few small humans instead of chomping them up or smashing them.

He very obviously noticed the Argo in front of him when he was flying towards Rodan. He didn't just swoop past it like you'd expect from an animal that was going after a bigger threat, no, he hovered in front of it for a bit (giving us that awesome trailer shot) and grinned at it before flying off. That did not look like the neutral expression of an animal minding it's own business or the angry snarl of a predator on the hunt. It was a look of malice directed towards the human craft and it's inhabitants.

He not only saw Madison, but knew exactly where she was standing when looking through a window, he could have easily smashed into the building through the window and chomped her up in one bite, but instead he chose the more destructive way of destroying the building she's in. Also, after destroying the ORCA, if he did still consider Madison a threat, why wouldn't he just smash her with a wing or eat her whole? Why did he rear up and charge up all 3 beams to kill off such a small target? Animals generally tend to be efficient with their kills so this overkill isn't just animal behavior.

Draining Godzilla wasn't really the most efficient way of finishing him off at the time, why didn't he just haul him back up into the stratosphere and drop him again? There's no way even Godzilla would survive two falls from that height. Instead, he chose to slowly drain the life out him in an inefficient but painful looking method of killing. Brutality is one thing, animals often don't have qualms about their methods and they use the most efficient method possible even if it's messy. But not killing your opponent quickly to prolong their suffering is more sadistic than brutal. Either that or he just wanted Godzilla's power for himself, which I suppose could be normal behavior as he needs all the power he can get to terraform the planet.

Also FYI the Orca's Alpha signal can be amplified to "piercing frequencies" as said in the novel. So I'm pretty sure what the ORCA does to Ghidorah when he's nearby (not counting the stadium sounds, those were set to frequencies that made Titans relax) is hurting his ears. (He makes a pained shriek and physically recoils when it's turned on) So he usually tries to get rid of it first to stop the pain before resuming whatever he was doing. (Ignoring a fallen Godzilla for it though was a mistake on his part. He underestimated how quickly Godzilla could recover)


Also sorry to the thread if I went ballistic at the G98 stuff and started an uproar again. It's a trigger for me.

Mothra's hitching scene where the computers start failing and the scientist knows it's an outside party doing it within 2 seconds of it happening is the dumbest thing in the movie. There is no possible way he could've known an Jonah was doing anything and it wasn't a malfunction from Mothra or literally anything else.

GuardianGhido wrote:

Orichalcum wrote:Lmao no ones trolling, I was simply pointing out Ghidorah’s sheer level of incompetence which is apparent all throughout the film, and you can argue against it all you want- I can easily counter anything said

Can you counter that Ghidorah's sadism caused him to prolong his kills as explicitly referred to the novel where his supposed "incompetence" at destroying the osprey was mentioned as him being easily able to crush it in one bite, but purposely toying with his victims in order to savor their terror?

Yeah, it’s called sloppy writing

Who cares what the novel says, it’s completely irrelevant. We care about what’s on screen, not what’s written down on a second hand book lol

Orichalcum wrote:

GuardianGhido wrote:

Orichalcum wrote:Lmao no ones trolling, I was simply pointing out Ghidorah’s sheer level of incompetence which is apparent all throughout the film, and you can argue against it all you want- I can easily counter anything said

Can you counter that Ghidorah's sadism caused him to prolong his kills as explicitly referred to the novel where his supposed "incompetence" at destroying the osprey was mentioned as him being easily able to crush it in one bite, but purposely toying with his victims in order to savor their terror?

Yeah, it’s called sloppy writing

Who cares what the novel says, it’s completely irrelevant. We care about what’s on screen, not what’s written down on a second hand book lol

says the guy who cites novel for Ghidorah escaping from the Argo and Godzilla due to being overwhelmed

Yet another clever use of BB's lovingly coined term there btw. You should get an award for that.

The word "sloppy" wasn't invented by Baragonbreh

If he'd said "Sloppy Dougherty" then things might be different

G2000 wrote:The word "sloppy" wasn't invented by Baragonbreh

If he'd said "Sloppy Dougherty" then things might be different

Shhhh, don’t destroy his hatefilled narrative.

I love that what began as humorous nod to BB's posts now seems to have become a genuine triggerword for some people.

Smuggers wrote:I love that what began as humorous nod to BB's posts now seems to have become a genuine triggerword for some people.

Didn't he himself start using the term? Hashtags and all? Not triggered atm, just curious on who started this.

GuardianGhido wrote: Hmmm, while your analysis is certainly quite detailed and I'll have to give you kudos for it, the novelization explicitly referred to Ghidorah's actions being done out of malevolence and sadism other than necessity. ("Ghidorah’s eyes sparkled with dark, malicious glee as he regarded the ethereal cloud that was all that remained of Mothra. It wasn’t the expression of one animal that had bested another, or of a predator regarding its prey. Ghidorah enjoyed killing. He lived for it.")

Thank you for taking time to reply. For easier reading and clarity, I'll cut your post into its constituent parts and reply that way.

So here's the main issue in referencing the book---I'm not talking about the novel. If the novel went out of its way to do what I was talking about---show and display Ghidorah's malice---that's perfectly fine. But I'm not talking about the novel and my criticisms, questions, and discussions aren't aimed at it. There are countless movie novelizations that explain this or that of films and give better characterization but one can't treat the book and film as the same since they're completely different mediums and items in and of themselves. So in terms of the movie experience, that sort of malevolence didn't seem to me to be particularly well exemplified.

Humans by themselves aren't even the slightest threat to any Kaiju of his size or strength, you don't go out of your way to stomp on every ant you see unless you want to, as seen by Godzilla and most other Kaijus ignoring humans unless they really do something bad with their machines. Even Rodan, one of the more aggressive titans, didn't start chasing the Argo and smashing up fighters until they shot missiles at him. Meanwhile, Ghidorah just looked at the humans and their flashy sticks that weren't affecting him enough to even notice and decided to kill them all for the heck of it and even went after humans that didn't attack him who were just trying to escape. I don't think he'd regard all the humans around him as "threats" from a bunch of assault rifle bullets fired by a couple of soldiers he easily vaporized so he went after them for other reasons. He also often pauses to give his victim vicious grins before actually attacking them, something a predator wouldn't bother to do towards prey. He even wastes energy by using his Gravity Beams to vaporize a few small humans instead of chomping them up or smashing them.

People and animals may not go out of their way to kill every bug but think of it like this. Humans and many other animals much larger than humans often take interest in insects---things thousands of times smaller than they are---and may kill them, play with them, or what have you. Additionally, I think you're assuming too much here. In the bolded, you say that the humans weren't doing anything to affect him or enough to notice but he did notice them. Kevin was curious about them and the humans almost immediately started shooting. Sure, it wasn't a real threat but the humans showed aggression first. You may question whether Ghidorah's reaction was warranted but again, is it so different from a person swatting a pesky fly even though a normal house fly is weaker in every way and couldn't directly harm a person if it tried? And how hard is it to tell aggression from an entity, even a small one? And if you're first contact with these creatures is aggression, what're the chances that you're going to have your guard up against beings that look similarly? Pretty sure that's a common response for animals in the wild via learned behavior (heck, it's common for people). And didn't Ghidorah wake up from being frozen by an explosion? Hardly think it'd be in the best mood anyway.

I also just rewatched the scene before it blasts the soldiers and I saw no smiles or anything. I saw aggression and then an attack. I also think there's a bit too much being assumed in regards to wasting energy. We have no idea how Ghidorah's energy system works and there was never a time in the film where it looked like he lacked for energy (add that he's an alien and not even the Monarch people know how his biology works). So that's overstepping a bit, I think. On your last note---why didn't he eat or smash them---would one change their mind about his actions if he did that instead? Seems to me like same argument might be heard---that he was being more malicious than normal since they were so small in the first place.

He very obviously noticed the Argo in front of him when he was flying towards Rodan. He didn't just swoop past it like you'd expect from an animal that was going after a bigger threat, no, he hovered in front of it for a bit (giving us that awesome trailer shot) and grinned at it before flying off. That did not look like the neutral expression of an animal minding it's own business or the angry snarl of a predator on the hunt. It was a look of malice directed towards the human craft and it's inhabitants.

Again, I just watched the scene. We can't even see a clear image of its face so I'm unsure of where you're getting it grinning (I'll double check later to make sure). I see it looking angry (as the lightning flashes) and grimacing a bit. It was heading off to fight Rodan and was on a direct path. The Argo was on that same path. It's going to be aggressive. Again, not really showing it being especially bad----just angry. And wasn't the first time it saw the Argo when it had a fleet of jets firing missiles at it (another instance of Ghidorah being attacked first)? I'd think it'd have the ship marked as an enemy anyway by now so if it ever did see it again, I'd expect aggression though its main target was Rodan.

He not only saw Madison, but knew exactly where she was standing when looking through a window, he could have easily smashed into the building through the window and chomped her up in one bite, but instead he chose the more destructive way of destroying the building she's in. Also, after destroying the ORCA, if he did still consider Madison a threat, why wouldn't he just smash her with a wing or eat her whole? Why did he rear up and charge up all 3 beams to kill off such a small target? Animals generally tend to be efficient with their kills so this overkill isn't just animal behavior.

Well the alpha sounds were coming from all the speakers, right? So maybe it sought to be thorough. I can't tell you for certain but that's just what I thought in watching it. And sure, animals generally want to be efficient but again, not sure if the energy argument is good here since we don't know Ghidorah's energy requirements or if firing its gravity beams is even an issue for it. For all we know, the gravity beams aren't an issue as far as energy goes. It's never addressed, brought up, or hinted at. We know it can get a boost from power grids but that's all we can really say.

Draining Godzilla wasn't really the most efficient way of finishing him off at the time, why didn't he just haul him back up into the stratosphere and drop him again? There's no way even Godzilla would survive two falls from that height. Instead, he chose to slowly drain the life out him in an inefficient but painful looking method of killing. Brutality is one thing, animals often don't have qualms about their methods and they use the most efficient method possible even if it's messy. But not killing your opponent quickly to prolong their suffering is more sadistic than brutal. Either that or he just wanted Godzilla's power for himself, which I suppose could be normal behavior as he needs all the power he can get to terraform the planet.

Who says its goal was to prolong suffering as a goal? I'd say its goal was exactly what it was doing---absorbing Godzilla's energy (as you say in the second part of your paragraph). He weakened Godzilla enough to where it couldn't fight back and then he went about absorbing its energy via biting/draining.

Also FYI the Orca's Alpha signal can be amplified to "piercing frequencies" as said in the novel. So I'm pretty sure what the ORCA does to Ghidorah when he's nearby (not counting the stadium sounds, those were set to frequencies that made Titans relax) is hurting his ears. (He makes a pained shriek and physically recoils when it's turned on) So he usually tries to get rid of it first to stop the pain before resuming whatever he was doing. (Ignoring a fallen Godzilla for it though was a mistake on his part. He underestimated how quickly Godzilla could recover)

We run into the same issue here with info from the novel. A normal movie goer should have whatever info is needed from the movie itself. Unless there's a very specific reason, the movie shouldn't have to make sense only through outside materials (I'm not saying this film was incomprehensible----just a few items didn't really make sense or). A film or novel needs to stand up on its own merits and their praise or criticism belongs to each individual work (save some sort of collaborative project but I think you get my drift).

Now I maybe just forgot but I'm pretty sure that info about the Alpha signal isn't in the movie and if it's only in the book as you're mentioning then that indeed makes Ghidorah dropping Godzilla when its feeding to chase a car emitting the sound really odd. If we had an understanding in the film that the Orca made a piercing frequency that absolutely can't be ignored by such and such titans then at the very least, that part would make more sense as you say.

I hope what I'm saying makes sense. These are just thoughts I had during the movie and after that made me scratch my head. My goal here isn't to "be obtuse" but to ask questions, point out what I thought was off, and discuss with members. At the end of the day, I want these to be great films and if we don't address some of the possible issues then we can't get better films in the future (this last paragraph is just a general statement and not directed at you).

BioDestroyer wrote:

GuardianGhido wrote: Hmmm, while your analysis is certainly quite detailed and I'll have to give you kudos for it, the novelization explicitly referred to Ghidorah's actions being done out of malevolence and sadism other than necessity. ("Ghidorah’s eyes sparkled with dark, malicious glee as he regarded the ethereal cloud that was all that remained of Mothra. It wasn’t the expression of one animal that had bested another, or of a predator regarding its prey. Ghidorah enjoyed killing. He lived for it.")

Thank you for taking time to reply. For easier reading and clarity, I'll cut your post into its constituent parts and reply that way.

So here's the main issue in referencing the book---I'm not talking about the novel. If the novel went out of its way to do what I was talking about---show and display Ghidorah's malice---that's perfectly fine. But I'm not talking about the novel and my criticisms, questions, and discussions aren't aimed at it. There are countless movie novelizations that explain this or that of films and give better characterization but one can't treat the book and film as the same since they're completely different mediums and items in and of themselves. So in terms of the movie experience, that sort of malevolence didn't seem to me to be particularly well exemplified.

Humans by themselves aren't even the slightest threat to any Kaiju of his size or strength, you don't go out of your way to stomp on every ant you see unless you want to, as seen by Godzilla and most other Kaijus ignoring humans unless they really do something bad with their machines. Even Rodan, one of the more aggressive titans, didn't start chasing the Argo and smashing up fighters until they shot missiles at him. Meanwhile, Ghidorah just looked at the humans and their flashy sticks that weren't affecting him enough to even notice and decided to kill them all for the heck of it and even went after humans that didn't attack him who were just trying to escape. I don't think he'd regard all the humans around him as "threats" from a bunch of assault rifle bullets fired by a couple of soldiers he easily vaporized so he went after them for other reasons. He also often pauses to give his victim vicious grins before actually attacking them, something a predator wouldn't bother to do towards prey. He even wastes energy by using his Gravity Beams to vaporize a few small humans instead of chomping them up or smashing them.

People and animals may not go out of their way to kill every bug but think of it like this. Humans and many other animals much larger than humans often take interest in insects---things thousands of times smaller than they are---and may kill them, play with them, or what have you. Additionally, I think you're assuming too much here. In the bolded, you say that the humans weren't doing anything to affect him or enough to notice but he did notice them. Kevin was curious about them and the humans almost immediately started shooting. Sure, it wasn't a real threat but the humans showed aggression first. You may question whether Ghidorah's reaction was warranted but again, is it so different from a person swatting a pesky fly even though a normal house fly is weaker in every way and couldn't directly harm a person if it tried? And how hard is it to tell aggression from an entity, even a small one? And if you're first contact with these creatures is aggression, what're the chances that you're going to have your guard up against beings that look similarly? Pretty sure that's a common response for animals in the wild via learned behavior (heck, it's common for people). And didn't Ghidorah wake up from being frozen by an explosion? Hardly think it'd be in the best mood anyway.

I also just rewatched the scene before it blasts the soldiers and I saw no smiles or anything. I saw aggression and then an attack. I also think there's a bit too much being assumed in regards to wasting energy. We have no idea how Ghidorah's energy system works and there was never a time in the film where it looked like he lacked for energy (add that he's an alien and not even the Monarch people know how his biology works). So that's overstepping a bit, I think. On your last note---why didn't he eat or smash them---would one change their mind about his actions if he did that instead? Seems to me like same argument might be heard---that he was being more malicious than normal since they were so small in the first place.

He very obviously noticed the Argo in front of him when he was flying towards Rodan. He didn't just swoop past it like you'd expect from an animal that was going after a bigger threat, no, he hovered in front of it for a bit (giving us that awesome trailer shot) and grinned at it before flying off. That did not look like the neutral expression of an animal minding it's own business or the angry snarl of a predator on the hunt. It was a look of malice directed towards the human craft and it's inhabitants.

Again, I just watched the scene. We can't even see a clear image of its face so I'm unsure of where you're getting it grinning (I'll double check later to make sure). I see it looking angry (as the lightning flashes) and grimacing a bit. It was heading off to fight Rodan and was on a direct path. The Argo was on that same path. It's going to be aggressive. Again, not really showing it being especially bad----just angry. And wasn't the first time it saw the Argo when it had a fleet of jets firing missiles at it (another instance of Ghidorah being attacked first)? I'd think it'd have the ship marked as an enemy anyway by now so if it ever did see it again, I'd expect aggression though its main target was Rodan.

He not only saw Madison, but knew exactly where she was standing when looking through a window, he could have easily smashed into the building through the window and chomped her up in one bite, but instead he chose the more destructive way of destroying the building she's in. Also, after destroying the ORCA, if he did still consider Madison a threat, why wouldn't he just smash her with a wing or eat her whole? Why did he rear up and charge up all 3 beams to kill off such a small target? Animals generally tend to be efficient with their kills so this overkill isn't just animal behavior.

Well the alpha sounds were coming from all the speakers, right? So maybe it sought to be thorough. I can't tell you for certain but that's just what I thought in watching it. And sure, animals generally want to be efficient but again, not sure if the energy argument is good here since we don't know Ghidorah's energy requirements or if firing its gravity beams is even an issue for it. For all we know, the gravity beams aren't an issue as far as energy goes. It's never addressed, brought up, or hinted at. We know it can get a boost from power grids but that's all we can really say.

Draining Godzilla wasn't really the most efficient way of finishing him off at the time, why didn't he just haul him back up into the stratosphere and drop him again? There's no way even Godzilla would survive two falls from that height. Instead, he chose to slowly drain the life out him in an inefficient but painful looking method of killing. Brutality is one thing, animals often don't have qualms about their methods and they use the most efficient method possible even if it's messy. But not killing your opponent quickly to prolong their suffering is more sadistic than brutal. Either that or he just wanted Godzilla's power for himself, which I suppose could be normal behavior as he needs all the power he can get to terraform the planet.

Who says its goal was to prolong suffering as a goal? I'd say its goal was exactly what it was doing---absorbing Godzilla's energy (as you say in the second part of your paragraph). He weakened Godzilla enough to where it couldn't fight back and then he went about absorbing its energy via biting/draining.

Also FYI the Orca's Alpha signal can be amplified to "piercing frequencies" as said in the novel. So I'm pretty sure what the ORCA does to Ghidorah when he's nearby (not counting the stadium sounds, those were set to frequencies that made Titans relax) is hurting his ears. (He makes a pained shriek and physically recoils when it's turned on) So he usually tries to get rid of it first to stop the pain before resuming whatever he was doing. (Ignoring a fallen Godzilla for it though was a mistake on his part. He underestimated how quickly Godzilla could recover)

We run into the same issue here with info from the novel. A normal movie goer should have whatever info is needed from the movie itself. Unless there's a very specific reason, the movie shouldn't have to make sense only through outside materials (I'm not saying this film was incomprehensible----just a few items didn't really make sense or). A film or novel needs to stand up on its own merits and their praise or criticism belongs to each individual work (save some sort of collaborative project but I think you get my drift).

Now I maybe just forgot but I'm pretty sure that info about the Alpha signal isn't in the movie and if it's only in the book as you're mentioning then that indeed makes Ghidorah dropping Godzilla when its feeding to chase a car emitting the sound really odd. If we had an understanding in the film that the Orca made a piercing frequency that absolutely can't be ignored by such and such titans then at the very least, that part would make more sense as you say.

I hope what I'm saying makes sense. These are just thoughts I had during the movie and after that made me scratch my head. My goal here isn't to "be obtuse" but to ask questions, point out what I thought was off, and discuss with members. At the end of the day, I want these to be great films and if we don't address some of the possible issues then we can't get better films in the future (this last paragraph is just a general statement and not directed at you).

Well you do make some compelling points, but I guess it's more up to personal interpretation whether one considers Ghidorah overly malicious or just an incredibly aggressive animal. I myself notice a lot of malevolence coming from him, but that might not be the perception of everyone which is perfeclty fine. It's why a lot of these monsters actions and behaviors are shown and not told, so that we might think for ourselves on what they actually mean. It's also a part of what makes these giant monsters so unique as characters, instead of being humans that openly convey all of their thoughts and motivations through speech and relatibility, we have to read between the lines to understand what the monsters are thinking, and even then, not all of us would find the same meaning. In this case, I'm just going to agree to disagree. I respect the opinion of thinking Ghidorah is an animal with no real malice, but I personally feel differently. No offense or provocation intended if I came off that way, just saying we have differing opinions on the matter and I'm OK with that.

Thank you for the friendly discussion though, it's nice to participate in a civil and compelling discussion on matters we disagree on instead of tossing jabs back and forth like what usually happens in this forums. I really appreciate that.

GuardianGhido wrote:Didn't he himself start using the term? Hashtags and all? Not triggered atm, just curious on who started this.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sloppy
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... ger%20Word

BioDestroyer wrote:I also just rewatched the scene before it blasts the soldiers and I saw no smiles or anything. I saw aggression and then an attack.

Yeah, a lot of the stuff said on this topic reminds of people who are convinced that their dogs smile at them or that certain animals play with their food with malevolent intent. It's just projecting human qualities on an animal--one that isn't real in the first place to be sure, but I don't think it goes as deep as some people think. Ghidorah is clearly meant to be bad but he's not a cartoon character.

So I rewatched the movie last night to reassess everything-

The Godzilla/San Francisco flashback still stands strong as the worst special effects scene in the movie. Where everything is greenscreen except the actors, the whole thing just looks “off”.

Emma trying to calm Mothra- Madison feels the need to go in after her mom while she’s trying to figure out the alpha signal- but why? She doesn’t offer any help whatsoever, she just kneels down beside Emma to watch her frantically fumble around with the Orca. Seems like sloppy way to put her in harms way.

Godzilla vs. Ghidorah Antarctica battle- the best choreographed battle in the movie and it’s hardly anything, wished we saw Godzilla achieve more than just slamming a single head into a high tension wire.

Rodan’s Rampage- best part of the film, absolutely no complaints.

Rodan vs. Ghidorah- wow, such a missed opportunity, there’s so much dialogue that could have been cut to give us an amazing arial dog fight between the two but nope.

Godzilla vs. Ghidorah Round 2- This is where the super annoying closeup shots start. Everything’s so jarring and unsatisfying due to only seeing shadows and closeups flopping in the water for the duration, I get no enjoyment from this scene, especially when I know what it’s leading to.

The Oxygen Destroyer is so poorly handled, I can’t understand how anyone can give it a pass unless they just don’t give a shit about it, it’s mentioned, half a second later you see it enter the frame and BAM, that’s it.

Ghidorah regenerating the head- it still comes off rushed like a good fraction of every “wow” moment. In the commentary Mike says he was inspired by The Thing but the reason all those transformations worked was because it had the proper time to register and show you ever ounce of it, here it just looks like they set the footage on fast forward. The reason this bothers me so much is if it had the proper time to shine, it would have made for a beyond standout sequence but nope, like everything is, it’s rushed.

Hollow Earth sequence- absolutely no complaints, between this and the Rodan dog fight, it’s the best part of the movie.

Godzilla rises out of the ocean- great scene, but that snap shot of Godzilla focusing on the submarine is so jarring. I think the editors went crazy with all these snap shots when a normal film usually only has one at the most, KOTM has like 5 that I can recollect and everytime it looks weird.

Mothra’s entrance into Boston- I still don’t understand what’s happening here, Godzilla pushes Ghidorah back with his atomic breath and he goes sliding towards our main G-Team cast about to crush them, but suddenly stops? The scene comes off as slow motion, first, until you see Godzilla’s atomic breath firing at real time while Ghidorah is sstanding still, necks moving slower than usual- what the hell? Anyone else confused?

Beyond that, I’m still not impressed with the fight choreography between Godzilla and Ghidorah, sorry folks, it’s nothing special.

Rodan vs. Mothra- what more can I say that I haven’t already about it? It’s still an utter mess of CG zipping and zooming across the city.

Sky drop scene- another would-be beautiful sequence that’s ruined by how rushed it is, We see Godzilla get choked out in a split second which would have made for a really sad scene if it had a chance to breathe, then Godzilla just plummets for 3 seconds and hits the ground. It’s so annoying how nothing is timed properly.

Ghidorah constricting and absorbing Godzilla- no real complaints here but I want to point out this shot of Godzilla’s back plate folding while one of Ghidorah’s necks coil around him, I thought these were spikes, not fins.

Burning Godzilla reveal- not a fan of the half roar he does, I know it’s more of a nitpick but I feel the sequence needed a long roar

Godzilla slurping down Ghidorah’s neck- everything looks so so unnatural here.