Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby gottatalktothefake » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:25 pm

Vatarian wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:
Vatarian wrote:
Not sarcastic in the slightest. I got banned here when I was a kid for telling a weeaboo pedophile to skreeonk off and stop being a weeaboo pedophile. The whole place is a joke and most of its users are insufferable. If it’s not pages of egotistical flamewars over action figures, it’s obnoxious misanthropes yelling about how awful every piece of Godzilla media save for X fav film/comic is. I’m only still here because I’m friends with a handful of active users and like to sift around for tidbits of info on Godzilla related stuff I might not find somewhere else.


I didn’t mean about the site in general, I actually agree with you about some of the stuff you said. I’ve been critical of KOTM but I still love the damn film, and the majority of films.

I meant I couldn’t tell if you were being serious about the part about Godzilla movies not supposed to be poignant tales. I think there’s many films that play to this in spades.


Oh. I misunderstood a bit.

My point was that Godzilla films, by and large, are not built to hinge on human drama in a way most might find critically appealing within the critical lense of modern standards. A handful of films within the series have successfully run that gambit, yes, but when the series itself is made up of dozens of dozens movies, several comic series and anthologies, and multiple novels which really, really don’t, it just feels a little silly to hold every new release to that standard before any other.

And to be honest? From what I’ve read of the movie’s reception on these forums?

Many people are doing that anyway.

And yes, I know, people are allowed to receive and react to a film any which way they please, but I can’t help but find it a little absurd to judge a Godzilla brawl-movie, done in the style of an updated Kill All Monsters, as if it’s an intellectual indie film designed to stir the spirit with the deep, resounding implications it carries within its commentary on the human soul and our journey as a species and as individuals through the traumatic and moving emotional web of life.

I mean. By all means. Critique the film like that if you want.

And. Yeah. The human element of the film was flawed, and you’re absolutely entitled to making note of that if you like.
But it’s my very subjective opinion that if you digest a Godzilla film from that angle and then sneer on an internet forum about it, you’re probably even more of a heinous dipshit than most of the people on this site. And you’re definitely a major funkill.


I mean I did say I envied the people who loved it and don't want to hurt anyone's enjoyment of it but ok.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:25 pm

Man I don't think I'll ever get how people consciously hold the series to lower standards

And I'm not trying to be snarky with that statement or insinuate people are dumb, it's genuinely weird to me to see that kind of attitude aimed at certain genre films. I've seen more superhero movie nerds hold their capeflicks to higher standards than kaiju fans.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Smuggers » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:32 pm

This comes across as a bit of an overreaction to some hyperbolic criticism. Everyone knows that Godzilla films aren't high art but we also know that the large majority of the film won't actually feature the title character and we'll be stuck with something that we'll inevitably find issue with. It strikes me as odd to judge a film solely on 20-30% of its runtime as you seem to be suggesting. At least to me, it's coming off as "Don't criticize anything besides the monsters".
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Vatarian » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:38 pm

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Man I don't think I'll ever get how people consciously hold the series to lower standards


Did we watch the same movie series? The same movies full of hokey effects, writing that’s generally bad or boring even when the fans hold it to be some “deep” cult classic?

The movies where dudes dressed up in tinfoil suits, call themselves “Black Hole Aliens” and kidnap a literal damsel in distress?

The movies with Minilla? The movies where a dragon the size of a building goes “BIDIBIDIBIDIBIDI” in a falsetto squeal?

Godzilla is fun and cheerful and dark and silly and scary and campy and explosive and interesting and full of subtextual details. Godzilla is many things. But it’s not a cinematic saga known for its breathtaking writing. Not on more than a scant handful of occasions, anyway.

And even most of those outliers tend to fall flat in terms of actual storytelling and narrative execution compared to many other creative works.

No one’s STOPPING you from going to a Godzilla film for the shear, delicious human drama and acting prowess.

But if you do? We, as fans, are getting fundamentally different things from what we’re watching.

Added in 3 minutes 53 seconds:
TLDR; I’m not stopping anyone from critiquing the human elements of this film or any other, but I don’t find hardly any of the films to be “good” by that standard.

I watch to see a pissed-off radioactive amphibian beat the literal, actual poop out of some other roided up mutant National Geographic escapee. I go to watch the light leave the military’s eyes as their bullets leave said pissed-off salamander and all of his giant buddies unphased.

I go to have fun.

If I went for the plot, I’d have lost interest in literally every Godzilla film by age 8.

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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby _JNavs_ » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:42 pm

Vatarian wrote:
Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Man I don't think I'll ever get how people consciously hold the series to lower standards


Did we watch the same movie series? The same movies full of hokey effects, writing that’s generally bad or boring even when the fans hold it to be some “deep” cult classic?

The movies where dudes dressed up in tinfoil suits, call themselves “Black Hole Aliens” and kidnap a literal damsel in distress?

The movies with Minilla? The movies where a dragon the size of a building goes “BIDIBIDIBIDIBIDI” in a falsetto squeal?

Godzilla is fun and cheerful and dark and silly and scary and campy and explosive and interesting and full of subtextual details. Godzilla is many things. But it’s not a cinematic saga known for its breathtaking writing. Not on more than a scant handful of occasions, anyway.

And even most of those outliers tend to fall flat in terms of actual storytelling and narrative execution compared to many other creative works.

No one’s STOPPING you from going to a Godzilla film for the shear, delicious human drama and acting prowess.

But if you do? We, as fans, are getting fundamentally different things from what we’re watching.

Yeah I've gotta agree with you on this one. A lot of users here hold some of the older Toho films to such a high regard, which I understand, Nostalgia is a helluva drug, but there's more to this franchise than what you saw in the 60s.

Relating to the topic however, that Crowning sequence is gorgeous, like an art piece, the entire sequence is stunning and it's something you really can't do on a small set with a few guys in suits.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby gottatalktothefake » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:45 pm

_JNavs_ wrote:
Vatarian wrote:
Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Man I don't think I'll ever get how people consciously hold the series to lower standards


Did we watch the same movie series? The same movies full of hokey effects, writing that’s generally bad or boring even when the fans hold it to be some “deep” cult classic?

The movies where dudes dressed up in tinfoil suits, call themselves “Black Hole Aliens” and kidnap a literal damsel in distress?

The movies with Minilla? The movies where a dragon the size of a building goes “BIDIBIDIBIDIBIDI” in a falsetto squeal?

Godzilla is fun and cheerful and dark and silly and scary and campy and explosive and interesting and full of subtextual details. Godzilla is many things. But it’s not a cinematic saga known for its breathtaking writing. Not on more than a scant handful of occasions, anyway.

And even most of those outliers tend to fall flat in terms of actual storytelling and narrative execution compared to many other creative works.

No one’s STOPPING you from going to a Godzilla film for the shear, delicious human drama and acting prowess.

But if you do? We, as fans, are getting fundamentally different things from what we’re watching.

Yeah I've gotta agree with you on this one. A lot of people hold some of the older Toho films to such a high regard, which I understand, Nostalgia is a helluva drug, but there's more to this franchise than what you saw in the 60s.

Relating to the topic however, that Crowning sequence is gorgeous, like an art piece, the entire sequence is stunning and it's something you really can't do on a small set with a few guys in suits.

Yeah, I mean, I love Godzilla and I have some strong nostalgia for almost all of the movies, but the only movie that lives up to the fandom's hype for it IMO is 54. Honestly if I did one of those marathon reviews of the entire series the word "overrated" would pop up a lot.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:49 pm

Vatarian wrote:But it’s not a cinematic saga known for its breathtaking writing. Not on more than a scant handful of occasions, anyway


Cool. I'm not expecting some art house cinema out of the series unless some acclaimed director is working on it. Doesn't mean I'm gonna grade the movies on a curve and be nice to them when they're poorly written and directed just because other bad movies exist or they conform to an image I have on the franchise. If it's a badly made production like KOTM I'm not gonna suddenly lower my standards and resort to odd deflections aimed solely at ideas and not the execution. I'll accept it as bad and hope that the next film is better.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby _JNavs_ » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:50 pm

gottatalktothefake wrote:
_JNavs_ wrote:Yeah I've gotta agree with you on this one. A lot of people hold some of the older Toho films to such a high regard, which I understand, Nostalgia is a helluva drug, but there's more to this franchise than what you saw in the 60s.

Relating to the topic however, that Crowning sequence is gorgeous, like an art piece, the entire sequence is stunning and it's something you really can't do on a small set with a few guys in suits.

Yeah, I mean, I love Godzilla and I have some strong nostalgia for almost all of the movies, but the only movie that lives up to the fandom's hype for it IMO is 54. Honestly if I did one of those marathon reviews of the entire series the word "overrated" would pop up a lot.

Yeah exactly me too, the older films are classics, always will be. But I see some users on here saying the modern films can't touch even the later Showa films.... Like come on, I never like coming off as a "New Gen" kinda person since I've always preferred older content. But these new films are a whole new level, a whole different ball game... '54 is the only one imo that carries those heavy themes and ideals mentioned so often of the franchise.

KOTM is arguably one of the best in the franchise, maybe not in the writing department, maybe not in the editing department, but it did something none of the previous films managed to do, it made the monsters feel ALIVE, made their world feel alive, and I will forever be grateful and hold them in the highest regard for it.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Vatarian » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:57 pm

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:
Vatarian wrote:But it’s not a cinematic saga known for its breathtaking writing. Not on more than a scant handful of occasions, anyway


Cool. I'm not expecting some art house cinema out of the series unless some acclaimed director is working on it. Doesn't mean I'm gonna grade the movies on a curve and be nice to them when they're poorly written and directed just because other bad movies exist or they conform to an image I have on the franchise. If it's a badly made production like KOTM I'm not gonna suddenly lower my standards and resort to odd deflections aimed solely at ideas and not the execution. I'll accept it as bad and hope that the next film is better.


Cool! Didn’t ask you to.

I do, however, think it’s slightly unfair to, as a Godzilla fan, grade a Godzilla film on a metric which renders most of the rest of the series solidly within the realm of “absurd trash”.

It’d be like going to Birdman and going “hmm. Not very many large monsters or epic clashes of carnate forces of nature in this movie. I give it a solid C-.”

Like. Sure. You can judge a film by a metric that nullifies most of its point and appeal.

But I bet I’m having more fun than you. And if we’re appraising KOTM within a critical context that renders it “bad” and absolutely nothing more worth saying, then 90% of all Godzilla films ever made are also “bad” with absolutely nothing more worth saying.

....And that’s not terribly fun, OR in line with anything resembling the films’ intent of appeal.

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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Kaiju-King42 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:09 pm

>_>

<_<

There's actually a number of older films that I wouldn't hesitate to label as good movies, not just good Godzilla movies. Mothra, Mothra vs Godzilla, Frankenstein vs Baragon, Godzilla vs Hedorah, Monster Zero, Return of Godzilla, Godzilla vs Biollante, GMK, LPG, and Shin all come to mind. And those are just the standouts.

But maybe I'm alone in this line of thought.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Smuggers » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:12 pm

I don't see why this is even a conversation. We've had people who loved everything, hated everything, had issues with the monster scenes but liked the monster scenes and people who had issues with the human scenes but loved the monster scenes. There's quite a diverse discussion happening right now with this movie in regards to its faults and merits, attempting to shut down one side of it while also dragging the rest of the franchise through the mud, making generalizations and trying to prove that your is the right way of just reeks of desperation. Nobody's acting like they're here solely for the human story, but it's a necessary aspect of the film and it's totally possible for one side of a film to actively detract from your viewing experience of the other. You can enjoy one aspect of a film while finding faults with another, this forum has proved that. But apparently it's awful and full obnoxious negative ninnies who don't think like I do, so I guess I'll just make a couple thousand more posts and call it quits. :shrug:
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:14 pm

Vatarian wrote:I do, however, think it’s slightly unfair to, as a Godzilla fan, grade a Godzilla film on a metric which renders most of the rest of the series solidly within the realm of “absurd trash”.

Does it really? I saw the quintessential campy Godzilla flick, Ghidorah, like two days ago with the same standards I held KOTM to last night. I'm not even nostalgic for GTTHM and it ended up being a much better film. It totally has it's problems like the jumping around and the uneven effects but it's a well realized film for the most part. Does it have silly concepts? Absolutely. Does that inherently make something bad? Not at all when it's done well, and in Ghidorah's case it was.

Like. Sure. You can judge a film by a metric that nullifies most of its point and appeal.

But I bet I’m having more fun than you. And if we’re appraising KOTM within a critical context that renders it “bad” and absolutely nothing more worth saying, then 90% of all Godzilla films ever made are also “bad” with absolutely nothing more worth saying.

....And that’s not terribly fun, OR in line with anything resembling the films’ intent of appeal.


I totally take intent into account. The problem is when a movie doesn't follow through with it very well. KOTM doesn't deliver because the story is actively awful to the point where it detracts from the enjoyment. The poor directing doesn't heighten any of the already sloppy attempts at drama, or lend the monster fights a sense of scale or geography. The film is an amalgamation of bad decisions like messy colors, misplaced jokes, and jarring shot choices. I found it to be a chore to watch. When the intent was to have amazing balls-to-the-wall monster fights while also providing a theme to make this more than just a "big dumb monster movie" and it fails to provide them, it's a bad movie
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Vatarian » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:23 pm

Smuggers wrote:I don't see why this is even a conversation. We've had people who loved everything, hated everything, had issues with the monster scenes but liked the monster scenes and people who had issues with the human scenes but loved the monster scenes. There's quite a diverse discussion happening right now with this movie in regards to its faults and merits, attempting to shut down one side of it while also dragging the rest of the franchise through the mud, making generalizations and trying to prove that your is the right way of just reeks of desperation. Nobody's acting like they're here solely for the human story, but it's a necessary aspect of the film and it's totally possible for one side of a film to actively detract from your viewing experience of the other. You can enjoy one aspect of a film while finding faults with another, this forum has proved that. But apparently it's awful and full obnoxious negative ninnies who don't think like I do, so I guess I'll just make a couple thousand more posts and call it quits. :shrug:


Yeah, I’m desperate on an internet forum about men in rubber suits decking the poop out of oneanother. You’ve absolutely got me there. The vein in my forehead is straining and I’m moments away from a stroke.

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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby _JNavs_ » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:24 pm

Speaking of the Monsterverse making these Kaiju actually feel like living breathing animals, the appearance of the "other" kaiju on the radar mixed with "17 and counting" by Serizawa was a great "monster" scene, not in a literal sense but in the sense that we get the idea of these monsters living in ecosystems similar to real animals. We've got glimpses of this in some older films, but not as the focal point of a film like this one.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Vatarian » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:25 pm

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:
Vatarian wrote:I do, however, think it’s slightly unfair to, as a Godzilla fan, grade a Godzilla film on a metric which renders most of the rest of the series solidly within the realm of “absurd trash”.

Does it really? I saw the quintessential campy Godzilla flick, Ghidorah, like two days ago with the same standards I held KOTM to last night. I'm not even nostalgic for GTTHM and it ended up being a much better film. It totally has it's problems like the jumping around and the uneven effects but it's a well realized film for the most part. Does it have silly concepts? Absolutely. Does that inherently make something bad? Not at all when it's done well, and in Ghidorah's case it was.

Like. Sure. You can judge a film by a metric that nullifies most of its point and appeal.

But I bet I’m having more fun than you. And if we’re appraising KOTM within a critical context that renders it “bad” and absolutely nothing more worth saying, then 90% of all Godzilla films ever made are also “bad” with absolutely nothing more worth saying.

....And that’s not terribly fun, OR in line with anything resembling the films’ intent of appeal.


I totally take intent into account. The problem is when a movie doesn't follow through with it very well. KOTM doesn't deliver because the story is actively awful to the point where it detracts from the enjoyment. The poor directing doesn't heighten any of the already sloppy attempts at drama, or lend the monster fights a sense of scale or geography. The film is an amalgamation of bad decisions like messy colors, misplaced jokes, and jarring shot choices. I found it to be a chore to watch. When the intent was to have amazing balls-to-the-wall monster fights while also providing a theme to make this more than just a "big dumb monster movie" and it fails to provide them, it's a bad movie


I.... Disagree. Our opinions on KOTM and GTTHM are roughly inverse, and given that, I’m not sure this discussion is terribly productive, even by the standards of exchanges on Toho Kingdom.

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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Smuggers » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:26 pm

Vatarian wrote:Yeah, I’m desperate on an internet forum about men in rubber suits decking the poop out of oneanother. You’ve absolutely got me there. The vein in my forehead is straining and I’m moments away from a stroke.

As long as you're having fun. I know I am. :D
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Troyal1 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:28 pm

Okay so back to good things lol...

I love Rodans design and especially Mothra. She was definitely portrayed as a god the best of any of them imo. Her saving Godzilla with light coming down. Her shielding him at the end was all really well done.

I would have loved a much longer 2V1 against Ghidorah (after Rodan was dispatched) because Mothra was so good for me personally.
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby _JNavs_ » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:28 pm

I loved the transition between the Antarctic fight and the Wolves shredding the meat in the animal planet styled camera angle, it made the film feel all the more "real"
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby Smuggers » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:31 pm

_JNavs_ wrote:I loved the transition between the Antarctic fight and the Wolves shredding the meat in the animal planet styled camera angle, it made the film feel all the more "real"

Now all we need is a wolf in GvK and we'll be three for three in terms of wolves showing up in Godzilla movies. :P
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Re: Positive things about the portrayal of monsters!

Postby _JNavs_ » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:33 pm

Smuggers wrote:
_JNavs_ wrote:I loved the transition between the Antarctic fight and the Wolves shredding the meat in the animal planet styled camera angle, it made the film feel all the more "real"

Now all we need is a wolf in GvK and we'll be three for three in terms of wolves showing up in Godzilla movies. :P

Were there wolves in G14? I'd be game to see those Wolf titans from the Skull Island concept art, they were confirmed canon I believe in KOTM, so I'd love to see em in GvK.
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