The “OTHER” Monsters (Spoilers Ahead)

[Sonic]

There's no need to post this same picture in four different threads, with no dialogue to add to the conversation.

sorry.

[MegaEvilSaurus666]

Technically, the MUTOs are not even tetrapods.

There's no way to say that they are or not, unless there's something within official sources that specifically states they do not branch off the tetrapod line


I don't really get the 'distal Placoderm' thing either-- is it because they have the staple remover mouths?

Tetrapods are four limbed animals. MUTOs do not have four limbs, and would have somehow evolved their number of limbs seperately, or at least that's my opinion.

[Omegamorph]

Tetrapods are four limbed animals. MUTOs do not have four limbs, and would have somehow evolved their number of limbs seperately, or at least that's my opinion.

But Tetrapod refers to any and all descendants of the primitive four-limbed fish-ike animals that crawled out of water (such as Tiktaalik). Some animals have two or no limbs, but belong to Tetrapods regardless.

evolving a new number of limbs would be a matter of expressing certain genes in a body segment where they're not ordinarily expressed -- this is how hindfins (and so hindlimbs) came to be -- it's a matter of 'expressing new limbs' and then adapting the body structure to their needs.


Again, I'm not necessarily saying the MUTOs are Tetrapods, but we don't know they aren't, either. If they have an ossified endoskeleton with articulated limbs, it's most likely that they are

[MegaEvilSaurus666]

The more I think about it, the more absurd the idea of classifying the MUTOs becomes. They're designed like this for a reason.

Some animals have two or no limbs, but belong to Tetrapods regardless.

Nature has a tendency to simplify or remove limbs if it isn't necessary to the creature's survival. Moa birds had no need for wings and so lost front limbs, snakes had four legs but lost them. It's easier to gain ribs but lose legs.

evolving a new number of limbs would be a matter of expressing certain genes in a body segment where they're not ordinarily expressed -- this is how hindfins (and so hindlimbs) came to be -- it's a matter of 'expressing new limbs' and then adapting the body structure to their needs.

It's quite the opposite for more complex creatures, if I recall correctly. Functional new limbs would develop with a need if it were possible. The limbs change with the body structure of an animal, and the body structure changes with need, or environmental pressures. Even then, a limb girdle is not a simple thing to develop. The very earliest of tetrapods would need to have some reason to evolve two addition sets of fins. Today's tetrapods simply develop the existing limbs for more specific needs like flight or swimming. The features seen on the MUTOs would have to evolve independently of tetrapods. Not to mention their eyes, mandibles, exoskeleton-type skin, and hoof-like feet. They're fictitious, it's hard to explain them. They're still called MUTOS because they're nothing like anything that exists.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying the MUTOs are Tetrapods, but we don't know they aren't, either.

Well, they don't have four limbs. They're not tetrapods. Even if you drop science and go almost exclusively for fiction to explain them, they wouldn't be, by definition, tetrapods. You could say that they're "octopods," although that name is taken. It's pretty fun talking about this, I'll say.

[Omegamorph]

It's quite the opposite for more complex creatures, if I recall correctly. Functional new limbs would develop with a need if it were possible. The limbs change with the body structure of an animal, and the body structure changes with need, or environmental pressures. Even then, a limb girdle is not a simple thing to develop. The very earliest of tetrapods would need to have some reason to evolve two addition sets of fins. Today's tetrapods simply develop the existing limbs for more specific needs like flight or swimming. The features seen on the MUTOs would have to evolve independently of tetrapods. Not to mention their eyes, mandibles, exoskeleton-type skin, and hoof-like feet. They're fictitious, it's hard to explain them. They're still called MUTOS because they're nothing like anything that exists.

It's how it always works. New features in animal bodies come from changes in gene expression along the body segments, or from gene duplications and other such processes. It's far easier for the MUTOs to come about from tetrapods than them coming from independently evolving placoderms.

In this case, new sets of limbs would happen by chance, by gene duplication, and simply not get selected against. It would be an enormously complex path, of course.

But as you say they're creature designs and their creators probably didn't really ponder about things like this. They could be aliens for all we know.

Well, they don't have four limbs. They're not tetrapods. Even if you drop science and go almost exclusively for fiction to explain them, they wouldn't be, by definition, tetrapods. You could say that they're "octopods," although that name is taken. It's pretty fun talking about this, I'll say.

Tetrapod is a taxonomical, cladistical term, indicating all the descendants of the earliest four-limbed "fish-amphibians" (as I said above). So it depends on where the MUTOs branch off from; if they branch off anywhere after the "fish-amphibians" that first crawled out of water, then they're tetrapods, period. In that case, they would be tetrapods without the tetrapod condition, much like we all are bony fish that hardly resemble fish anymore. Cladistics's a bit of a bitch

[MegaEvilSaurus666]

It's how it always works. New features in animal bodies come from changes in gene expression along the body segments, or from gene duplications and other such processes. It's far easier for the MUTOs to come about from tetrapods than them coming from independently evolving placoderms.

In this case, new sets of limbs would happen by chance, by gene duplication, and simply not get selected against. It would be an enormously complex path, of course.

But as you say they're creature designs and their creators probably didn't really ponder about things like this. They could be aliens for all we know.

But it's not simply a matter of gene expression. This sort of massive morphological mutation (we're definitely dealing with HOX and hh genes and proteins, I believe) would have to come from some particular need to replicate and get selected throughout generations. Even further, there would be many other changes besides the additional limbs, including a change in heart size and function, brain function, body shape, and neurons. Most multiple limb mutations (which aren't caused by the same means) are not functional due to this sort of thing. This is why I said the body structure would have to evolve alongside such developments, simply for the limbs to succeed. As we know, nature is a bit messy, and so such changes are unlikely to happen alongside this random limb increase, especially not by chance, or within a single generation. Consequently, the individual would probably die off, likely within days of birth.

And if we are to assume that this change happens within an individual and he/she miraculously survives, how do we suppose the offspring of this individual and a typical individual would be, and would it survive? Would the multi-limbed genes even pass on to subsequent generations properly? Likely not, and that may be the reason why there aren't any alive. Perhaps primitive fish (much before lobe-finned fish) with 3 or 4 pairs of fins could have existed or had the potential to exist, but most derived vertebrates aren't likely to have luck developing these features, and especially not with the proper limb girdles, nerves, and various other adaptations to go with them.

As I see it, they're not tetrapods, and I don't think they were intended to be identified or analyzed, as they are Massive Unidentified Terrestrial Organisms. It's just a strange monster design that feels both alien and terrestrial. Should I point out the MUTO Prime again?

Tetrapod is a taxonomical, cladistical term, indicating all the descendants of the earliest four-limbed "fish-amphibians" (as I said above). So it depends on where the MUTOs branch off from; if they branch off anywhere after the "fish-amphibians" that first crawled out of water, then they're tetrapods, period. In that case, they would be tetrapods without the tetrapod condition, much like we all are bony fish that hardly resemble fish anymore. Cladistics's a bit of a skreeonk

I'm not an expert in taxonomy or anything that we've been discussing by any means, but I'm going to bet that the changes that would have to be made to create an animal resembling a MUTO would be distinct enough to warrant a different classification that is seperate from all extant and extinct tetrapods. That split would be massive, and would take a long time to develop. They couldn't evolve from reptiles (but they share a few features), nor amphibians (although they aren't amniotes). They'd belong to the tetrapod superclass, but would be distinct from the reptiliomorpha and batrachomorpha clades. I'd propose a new clade.

[Omegamorph]

[...]

A lot of this I can agree with, the end point being that the MUTOs having to re-evolve girdles, re-evolve this and that starting from a primitive fish is just as likely as them being distal, modified tetrapods because both would meet the same anatomical issues you talk about.

(hell, if they did branch off tetrapods in the real world, cladistics may have to find a new term for the whole grouping)

Not to mention that the most likely route would be that any additional limb would get lost in evolution simply for metabolical economy. A big reason tetrapods stay that way, with four limbs, is because the metabolical cost of having more than four is not worth the advantage additional limbs would bring. The moment an animal doesn't need something anymore, the trend in that animal's line will be to regress that trait -- it's like they're on constant budget cuts

(but if we bring this into play we also discard extreme gigantism, which is just as bad if not worse and would definitely be selected against)

[Stump Feet]

GREAT videos if you haven’t checked em’ out already, love the exclusive details from the novel which make these guys all the more interesting.

[Gigantis]

Actually, now that i think about it... what happened to the "Cyclops" titan? why did they scrap him?

Also i've heard rumors floating around that there used to be a Bigfoot titan that got scrapped. supposedly someone working on the art book drew/saw it. any truth to this?

[Stump Feet]

There probably was never a cyclops Titan, the visual effects were literally line work at that point so it’s more likely he was just mistaken.

And no, that Bigfoot rumor came from a guy who said Methuselah would look like Rhyhorn from Pokémon and that the movie had a couple Kamacuras, one based on the Showa version and one based on Final Wars, needless to say, obviously fake.

[Gigantis]

There probably was never a cyclops Titan, the visual effects were literally line work at that point so it’s more likely he was just mistaken.

And no, that Bigfoot rumor came from a guy who said Methuselah would look like Rhyhorn from Pokémon and that the movie had a couple Kamacuras, one based on the Showa version and one based on Final Wars, needless to say, obviously fake.

well when it comes to early designs there could have been a Methuselah concept where he did look like Rhyhorn,but it got replaced down the line. It's the Kamacuras one that proves it's fake though.

[miguelnuva]

Methuselah right now looks like Ryhorn a little bit.

[Stump Feet]

Methuselah right now looks like Ryhorn a little bit.

Not even close but ok, I’ll bite- explain to me how a bull with a forest growing on a turtle shell looks anything like an armored rhino?

[miguelnuva]

Methuselah right now looks like Ryhorn a little bit.

Not even close but ok, I’ll bite- explain to me how a bull with a forest growing on a turtle shell looks anything like an armored rhino?

The same way non fans think Showa Godzilla looks like Godzilla 2000. With his limited screentime I could see someone saying it looks like Ryhorn to them.

[Stump Feet]

Screentime has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re even talking about my dude.

Someone who said they’d gotten an early copy of the Art Book said they saw Methuselah’s official design and said he looked like Rhyhorn from Pokémon.

Not only did Methuselah not even pop up in the art book, his official design from the movie absolutely shares zero similarities with the Pokémon besides the fact they’re both quadrupeds. The armors not even the same as one is covered in armor and the other has a turtle-like shell.

[Gawdziller1954]

Screentime has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re even talking about my dude.

Someone who said they’d gotten an early copy of the Art Book said they saw Methuselah’s official design and said he looked like Rhyhorn from Pokémon.

Not only did Methuselah not even pop up in the art book, his official design from the movie absolutely shares zero similarities with the Pokémon besides the fact they’re both quadrupeds. The armors not even the same as one is covered in armor and the other has a turtle-like shell.

To be fair, the dude DID say it somewhat resembled Rhyhorn and that the armor looked like "bedrock." Methuselah also doesn't have a shell BTW, it's more like jointed armor plate.

[Stump Feet]

Methuselah also doesn't have a shell BTW, it's more like jointed armor plate.

Methuselah has a turtle-like shell in the novel.

[Gawdziller1954]

Methuselah also doesn't have a shell BTW, it's more like jointed armor plate.

Methuselah has a turtle-like shell in the novel.

No, he really doesn't. He's only ever described (at least in my copy) to resemble a bull with a mountain on his back. Besides, the novel is separate from the film and is secondary canon.

[Stump Feet]

The novel is just as canon as the film.

[UltramanGoji]

The novel is just as canon as the film.

Nope. Film takes precedence over any ancillary media. Novelizations especially are mostly written with early, non-final drafts of the script. See the 2014 film's novelization which is completely different from the film and has a ton of non-canon differences.