Page 5 of 7

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:26 pm
by BARAGONBREH
Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:It has merit when looked under a critical eye.


Ah, I see.

It's an objectively well made film that achieves what it set out to do really.


"Objectively"? Fascinating that you have insight into what is aesthetically objective - do share.

Unless you mean to say a movie "that achieves what it sets out to do" is all it takes for something to be "objectively well made" - in which case, again, I've got some stuff to show you.



One Criterion Collection release done back in the 90's doesn't define the label decades after the fact.


No, but the fact it includes crappy movies does indicate that being in the Criterion Collection isn't a clear indicator of a film's artistic value.
The Ishiro Honda biography by Ryfle and Godziszewski, and A Critical History and Filmography of Toho’s Godzilla Series by Kalat


What does the biography say regarding critical merit of Mothra v Godzilla?

I'll look into Kalat. Never heard of the book nor the author, but I'll be glad to see what they say about Mothra v Godzilla. Thanks.



He ends off saying "this is a bad movie" that one would watch "not because of it's artistic stature." It's pretty evident that he doesn't respect it beyond recognizing obvious visual parallels with the atomic bombings. You can recognize what you consider to be cheesy elements while still acknowledging that it's a potently charged movie that's crafted extremely well for the most part.


You can, but you don't need to. And to be frank, the visual parallels to the atomic bombings and related metaphors are the only thing that gives the movie any authentic artistic value. I disagree with Ebert that one wouldn't watch it for that, because I do and so have many others, but he defended his position pretty well. For him, the art didn't outweigh the cheese. For me, it absolutely does. Gojira is unique in that there's even any debate about artistic value, as opposed to most of the other Godzilla films, which someone like Ebert wouldn't have even bothered to argue have insufficient artistic merit since they don't have any.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:29 pm
by UltramanGoji
This conversation is more interesting than the original topic.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:46 pm
by Dv-218
UltramanGoji wrote:This conversation is more interesting than the original topic.


Took the words out of my mouth :lol:

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:00 pm
by Gojira18
Dv-218 wrote:
UltramanGoji wrote:This conversation is more interesting than the original topic.


Took the words out of my mouth :lol:

Image

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:03 pm
by BrazilianKaiju
Better American movie.

But talking about the franchise as a whole, I think still lacks a bit of ambition.

I venture to say that if an American film were made with the premise of the original movie or Shin, where Godzilla is treated with a deeper and metaphorical meaning, and the film transmitting an intentional message about some current problem, the work would have great chances of competing for an Oscar. (If the Shape of Water was able....)

When I saw the Godzilla trailer (2014) I thought that would be these approach. In the trailer we saw cities destroyed as if they had suffered earthquakes, the tsunami created by Godzilla, among other things that made me think the movie was about the planet manifesting against humanity due to the damage we are causing. And just as we can not fight against a volcano or a hurricane, all we could do was survive its passage.

Movies like Godzilla 2014 and KOTM are for fans and people that want see monsters fighting. But not work for the major public and the critics.

Sorry for my english.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:13 pm
by Mr_Goji_and_Watch
BARAGONBREH wrote:do share

It's a film which has some clear directing which makes it hard for viewers to misread the director's personal beliefs, nice bits of dialogue between the fine cast that fleshes them out enough for this type of film, sharp composition and framing, colorful set designs, etc. I don't want to write up a review in this thread but the only faults the movie has are a contrived obstacle after the battle with Mothra and Godzilla, a cheap island set, continuity and editing errors. I doubt anybody could argue these faults or something more make it a bad film.

No, but the fact it includes crappy movies does indicate that being in the Criterion Collection isn't a clear indicator of a film's artistic value.

Yeah it included some blockbusters in the late 90's, that doesn't mean much for any of the films the label acquired years after the fact.
What does the biography say regarding critical merit of Mothra v Godzilla?


Honda made his ideal of a social contract among all peoples the central theme, illustrated by the character's actions throughout... the heroes' impassioned plea between sounds as if Honda himself is speaking... the flow between Honda's drama and the special effects is mostly effortless

They do critique it for the "manufactured crisis" at the end and the cheap island set, while also calling the plot thin. I think all of their comments are fair assessments of it's highs and lows.

I'll look into Kalat. Never heard of the book nor the author, but I'll be glad to see what they say about Mothra v Godzilla. Thanks.

Some of his writing is a bit poop but it's not a bad read if you can find it for 10 bucks.

You can, but you don't need to. And to be frank, the visual parallels to the atomic bombings and related metaphors are the only thing that gives the movie any authentic artistic value.

I think you're selling it short a bit, there's some fine photography in it, Ifukube's score is a good listen on it's own and the dialogue and directing Honda did beyond the visual allusions sell the themes pretty well.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:52 pm
by BARAGONBREH
Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:It's a film which has some clear directing which makes it hard for viewers to misread the director's personal beliefs, nice bits of dialogue between the fine cast that fleshes them out enough for this type of film, sharp composition and framing, colorful set designs, etc. I don't want to write up a review in this thread but the only faults the movie has are a contrived obstacle after the battle with Mothra and Godzilla, a cheap island set, continuity and editing errors. I doubt anybody could argue these faults or something more make it a bad film.


Not gonna respond to each of these points in detail, especially since I don't disagree with all of them. But I will point out that 1. the dialogue is awfully heavy-handed in Mothra vs Godzilla and, in fact, the series as a totality. I'd have to see what dialogue in MVG you actually think is good. 2. Making it "hard for viewers to misread the director's personal beliefs" is not necessarily a sign of strength and, by the standards of modernity, is actually usually a weakness. Ambiguity is pretty important if something wants to be taken seriously as an art. Overt or didactic art is outdated, and by outdated, I don't mean 1960s outdated. I mean 1600s...

Yeah it included some blockbusters in the late 90's, that doesn't mean much for any of the films the label acquired years after the fact.


But those aren't the only bad movies in the Criterion Collection. They are the most egregious examples, of course, but there is quite a bit of dreck in there. Criterion Collection is a product. It profits off of apparently bestowing prestige upon people's favorite movies, and they release nice discs with cool extra features to sell to the fans. You know those leatherbound, gold-leaf embellished books that people buy? It looks nice on the shelf and feels special, but the truth is, not all of them are actually good books; the company just needs a lot of books in the collection in order to sell you a $1,000 set. Criterion has, more or less, the same business model.

Honda made his ideal of a social contract among all peoples the central theme, illustrated by the character's actions throughout... the heroes' impassioned plea between sounds as if Honda himself is speaking... the flow between Honda's drama and the special effects is mostly effortless


I have a real problem with this. First of all, to mention the obvious... The ideal of a social contract among all peoples is "Honda's"? Way to throw several centuries of both Western and Eastern philosophy right under the bus. Nevertheless, even granting that Honda wanted to explore the social contract as a theme, what did he actually have to say about it? Anything unique, novel, subversive, interesting? The social contract is a fairly well-developed theme; making a movie about it without anything new to say isn't impressive, and I can't recall anything even mildly illuminating being culled from that theme in the movie.

It's like if someone said "Michael Bay made his ideal of good vs. evil as a timeless struggle the central theme". Maybe, but if he did nothing whatsoever other than use that as a stock subtext for an otherwise crummy, derivative POS, he doesn't deserve any real credit for it.*

*I am not comparing MVG to the deplorable Michael Bay, whose films aren't even enjoyable as mindless entertainment. Just using the analogy to point out that borrowing an old theme is done by everyone, even the worst in the business, and doesn't prove any kind of artistic merit.


I think you're selling it short a bit, there's some fine photography in it, Ifukube's score is a good listen on it's own and the dialogue and directing Honda did beyond the visual allusions sell the themes pretty well.


There is some fine photography in it and the score is above-average (though I personally love it, of course), but sans the nuclear metaphors, that wouldn't be enough to make it a film worthy of artistic respect; enough to keep it out of the B-movie aisle, perhaps.

Overall, I like GVM - a lot - because I'm a Godzilla fan. But I'm not going to spend my time trying to convince myself it's fine art - or even art at all.

I do look forward to reading the book you recommended. Perhaps their analysis will change my mind, though I doubt it.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:26 pm
by KaijuCanuck
Greatest of all time is too tall an order. But I am expecting it to be quite good.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:05 pm
by GojiDog
I doubt it just because it'll be hard to top my favorites within the franchise. And expecting it to be the best G-film ever made is putting too high of an expectation on it.

However, I think there is a really good chance this could be easily be the best American Godzilla film ever made, and probably in the top ten of the franchise overall. If they deliver on what they are promising with the monsters, we are in for a wild ride. So much so, the real challenge will be matching it with Kong Vs. Godzilla.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:31 pm
by LSD Jellyfish
For me right now, the peak of the franchise in recent memory of Shin Godzilla. I expect KOTM to topple G14, the anime trilogy and even the millennium series. Whether it can bin the Shin remains to be seen. From everything we’ve seen so far, KOTM could easily be the best film action wise; however, we have no clue if the film will have good acting or there might be something else to it. I’m excited for it, but I’m keeping my general expectations in check.

Even if it beats Shin, if it’s just a big monster mash, I’ll still love both it and Shin for different reasons. Right now the potential is there to be a big upstart for the franchise.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:20 pm
by HeiseiGodzilla117
LSD Jellyfish wrote:For me right now, the peak of the franchise in recent memory of Shin Godzilla. I expect KOTM to topple G14, the anime trilogy and even the millennium series. Whether it can bin the Shin remains to be seen. From everything we’ve seen so far, KOTM could easily be the best film action wise; however, we have no clue if the film will have good acting or there might be something else to it. I’m excited for it, but I’m keeping my general expectations in check.

Even if it beats Shin, if it’s just a big monster mash, I’ll still love both it and Shin for different reasons. Right now the potential is there to be a big upstart for the franchise.



This is completely reasonable. There are so many movies in this series. To expect one to be the best before it even has any reviews is, quite frankly, absurd. It looks great. And I can't remember ever being this hyped for a Godzilla movie before. But I have no expectations that it will be the best. If it is, then it will be a wonderful surprise. I just expect it to be good. Nothing more.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:53 pm
by miguelnuva
Let me explain the initial question.

As of right now I myself have never been this hyped for a Godzilla film if someone asked me based on my hype and what I have seen so far I would say kotm has a shot at being one of if now the best Godzilla film.

It's more of does your gut tell you the film will be great just off the hype for right now. I guess I titled the topic wrong.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:59 pm
by HeiseiGodzilla117
miguelnuva wrote:Let me explain the initial question.

As of right now I myself have never been this hyped for a Godzilla film if someone asked me based on my hype and what I have seen so far I would say kotm has a shot at being one of if now the best Godzilla film.

It's more of does your gut tell you the film will be great just off the hype for right now. I guess I titled the topic wrong.


The question itself is reasonable enough. It's some of the answers that I don't understand.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:20 pm
by BlacktimusPrime
Will critics (and most g-fans) find it the best? Absolutely not. Gojira will be considered the greatest for a while, and perhaps forever. Will I think it the best? The more I see of it the more I'm thinking yes. And that's a tall order.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:47 pm
by Tyrant_Lizard_King
I have no real expectations for it whatsoever to be honestly. It certainly has potential to at least be fun but I don't expect it to have much of any thematic resonance. At least it doesn't look like its kidding itself that it has something profound to say.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:10 pm
by PopInPicsPresents
I've come to terms with the fact that I only really watch these movies to see monsters tear poop up, so KOTM might not be the best but it might be one of my favorites.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:28 am
by LSD Jellyfish
miguelnuva wrote:Let me explain the initial question.

As of right now I myself have never been this hyped for a Godzilla film if someone asked me based on my hype and what I have seen so far I would say kotm has a shot at being one of if now the best Godzilla film.

It's more of does your gut tell you the film will be great just off the hype for right now. I guess I titled the topic wrong.

I was super hyped for both G14 and Shin. With G14 it was because it was the first Godzilla movie in ten years, and with Shin the first Toho movie in a while.

Now that there’s recently been a lot of Godzilla related media, and we know both Toho and Legendary have more Godzilla plans, I’m not as desperately hyped to see it. To be clear I’m very excited and want to see it badly, but it’s not the same feeling as waiting for a few hours rereading the IDW comics in anticipation of G14. Unfortunately, KOTM doesn’t have ten years of anticipation leading up to it to strengthen itself.

My gut tells me it’ll be pretty amazing.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:35 am
by Jaqua92
Moogabunga wrote:In the world of reality and not under the spell of nostalgia, yes it will be.


This is how I feel. The old Godzillas are fun, but I hardly consider them *good* movies, as I cant see them as giant monsters.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:35 pm
by darthzilla99
BARAGONBREH wrote:
Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:It's a film which has some clear directing which makes it hard for viewers to misread the director's personal beliefs, nice bits of dialogue between the fine cast that fleshes them out enough for this type of film, sharp composition and framing, colorful set designs, etc. I don't want to write up a review in this thread but the only faults the movie has are a contrived obstacle after the battle with Mothra and Godzilla, a cheap island set, continuity and editing errors. I doubt anybody could argue these faults or something more make it a bad film.


Not gonna respond to each of these points in detail, especially since I don't disagree with all of them. But I will point out that 1. the dialogue is awfully heavy-handed in Mothra vs Godzilla and, in fact, the series as a totality. I'd have to see what dialogue in MVG you actually think is good. 2. Making it "hard for viewers to misread the director's personal beliefs" is not necessarily a sign of strength and, by the standards of modernity, is actually usually a weakness. Ambiguity is pretty important if something wants to be taken seriously as an art. Overt or didactic art is outdated, and by outdated, I don't mean 1960s outdated. I mean 1600s...

Yeah it included some blockbusters in the late 90's, that doesn't mean much for any of the films the label acquired years after the fact.


But those aren't the only bad movies in the Criterion Collection. They are the most egregious examples, of course, but there is quite a bit of dreck in there. Criterion Collection is a product. It profits off of apparently bestowing prestige upon people's favorite movies, and they release nice discs with cool extra features to sell to the fans. You know those leatherbound, gold-leaf embellished books that people buy? It looks nice on the shelf and feels special, but the truth is, not all of them are actually good books; the company just needs a lot of books in the collection in order to sell you a $1,000 set. Criterion has, more or less, the same business model.

Honda made his ideal of a social contract among all peoples the central theme, illustrated by the character's actions throughout... the heroes' impassioned plea between sounds as if Honda himself is speaking... the flow between Honda's drama and the special effects is mostly effortless


I have a real problem with this. First of all, to mention the obvious... The ideal of a social contract among all peoples is "Honda's"? Way to throw several centuries of both Western and Eastern philosophy right under the bus. Nevertheless, even granting that Honda wanted to explore the social contract as a theme, what did he actually have to say about it? Anything unique, novel, subversive, interesting? The social contract is a fairly well-developed theme; making a movie about it without anything new to say isn't impressive, and I can't recall anything even mildly illuminating being culled from that theme in the movie.

It's like if someone said "Michael Bay made his ideal of good vs. evil as a timeless struggle the central theme". Maybe, but if he did nothing whatsoever other than use that as a stock subtext for an otherwise crummy, derivative POS, he doesn't deserve any real credit for it.*

*I am not comparing MVG to the deplorable Michael Bay, whose films aren't even enjoyable as mindless entertainment. Just using the analogy to point out that borrowing an old theme is done by everyone, even the worst in the business, and doesn't prove any kind of artistic merit.


I think you're selling it short a bit, there's some fine photography in it, Ifukube's score is a good listen on it's own and the dialogue and directing Honda did beyond the visual allusions sell the themes pretty well.


There is some fine photography in it and the score is above-average (though I personally love it, of course), but sans the nuclear metaphors, that wouldn't be enough to make it a film worthy of artistic respect; enough to keep it out of the B-movie aisle, perhaps.

Overall, I like GVM - a lot - because I'm a Godzilla fan. But I'm not going to spend my time trying to convince myself it's fine art - or even art at all.

I do look forward to reading the book you recommended. Perhaps their analysis will change my mind, though I doubt it.


It's interesting your using Roger Ebert as an example of a respected critic and then dismissing the Criterion label because it had a few bad movies under it's seal. Given your disdain for the MCU, I would think you would not respect Ebert's opinion since it's well known he liked a lot of the MCU movies before he died. He gave Iron man a 4 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/iron-man-2008), Iron Man 2 a 3 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/iron-man-2-2010), Captain America the first Avenger a 3 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/capt ... enger-2011), and The Avengers a 3 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-avengers-2012).


As for the topic at hand, I definitely think it will have the best Kaiju fight scenes of all time, surpassing even Pacific Rim in terms of actual dynamic fight scenes. After seeing the comic con stuff, best music score as well. Character development and plot wise, that will be tricky. I don't think it will surpass Gojira and Shin Gojira in terms of plot, themes, narration, and character development. I would be hard pressed to beat even Mothra vs. Godzilla, Ghidorah the three headed monster, and Monster zero in plot and character development as well. Top 5 Godzilla movies, definitely.

Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:15 am
by BARAGONBREH
darthzilla99 wrote:
It's interesting your using Roger Ebert as an example of a respected critic and then dismissing the Criterion label because it had a few bad movies under it's seal. Given your disdain for the MCU, I would think you would not respect Ebert's opinion since it's well known he liked a lot of the MCU movies before he died. He gave Iron man a 4 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/iron-man-2008), Iron Man 2 a 3 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/iron-man-2-2010), Captain America the first Avenger a 3 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/capt ... enger-2011), and The Avengers a 3 out of a 5 (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-avengers-2012).


It's more interesting that my dislike of the MCU has stuck in your crawl so much that you forgot to take the time to notice I not only didn't say I agree with him on everything, but in fact pointed out that I disagreed with him on Godzilla.

I didn't "dismiss the Criterion label" out of hand, either. I said merely being on the Criterion label doesn't prove a movie is good, something which you literally can either:

a. agree with fully.
b. disagree with and therefore assert that Armageddon is good.

To summarize: I don't dismiss nor accept Ebert out of hand, and I don't dismiss nor accept Criterion's opinion out of hand; you somehow find me holding these two completely consistent and non-hypocritical positions "interesting".

Swing and a miss.