Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

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Greatest Godzilla film of all time?

Yes
22
39%
No
34
61%
 
Total votes: 56

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:50 pm

BARAGONBREH wrote:
Yep. Mothra was a children's movie. A decent one, but still a children's movie - and not high-quality, "children's-movie-but-actually-pretty-deep-for-adults" Pixar-style children's movie.

Ghidorah is a decently amusing B movie for people who dig kaiju.

Gojira approached something like art, or at least the closest anyone has thus far gotten to art when making a movie about a giant monster destroying everything.

No contest.

There's nothing wrong with Mothra vs Godzilla being a "children's movie", in fact I'd say it is a very good movie that didn't need to be better or compare to Gojira.

Shin Godzilla also approached it like art. Not everything in the franchise has to live up to '54.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:42 pm

Mothra vs Godzilla isn't even a children's movie lol. Honda and his crew made it with the intent of appealing to everybody. There's some comedic gags here and there (not that comedy = childish) but it never talks down to the audience in any way or appeal to kids specifically. The only Godzilla films that were actually made for kids were those made from 1969-1975 and 2002-2004. You could reach and argue that some of the Heisei movies were made for them because of all of the money made from Bandai figures.
Last edited by Mr_Goji_and_Watch on Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

on 12-31-2017, Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Nobody in the West can do the Oxygen Destroyer justice, especially not for some new Godzilla popcorn flick.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Chris55 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:07 pm

Sort of a weird topic. The title of "best Godzilla movie" is different for everyone.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby gottatalktothefake » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:13 pm

Nah, probably not
Smuggers wrote:How could Dougherty do this to us bros... he's defiling our beloved monsters right before our eyes, charging $15 a pop and getting millions in the process... I thought he was a trufan? I guess this was all some sick joke orchestrated by Thomas Tull for almost a decade...

Oh well. Guess I won't see the movie for myself and form my own opinion, I've basically already seen it in my mind from what I've read online and I know a lame duck when I see one. Time to whip out the 'ol 12 gauge

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby miguelnuva » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:50 pm

Dawsbfiremind wrote:
BARAGONBREH wrote:
miguelnuva wrote:
Both the 64 films topped Gojira especially Mothra vs Godzilla.


Uh huh. :roll:


Yeah...no they didn't. Gojira is still the highest peak of the Showa era, and thus far probably the peak of the franchise itself.


Gojira as others have mentioned is an art film or a worthy oscar film. Mothra vs Godzilla is a better Godzilla film and is closer to what I imagine as a Godzilla film.

I never said Mothra vs Godzilla was made better just that I find more entertainment in the 64 films the same way that I would watch G14 more times then I would watch 12 years a slave despite one being made far superior to the other.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby BARAGONBREH » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:17 am

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
BARAGONBREH wrote:
Yep. Mothra was a children's movie. A decent one, but still a children's movie - and not high-quality, "children's-movie-but-actually-pretty-deep-for-adults" Pixar-style children's movie.

Ghidorah is a decently amusing B movie for people who dig kaiju.

Gojira approached something like art, or at least the closest anyone has thus far gotten to art when making a movie about a giant monster destroying everything.

No contest.

There's nothing wrong with Mothra vs Godzilla being a "children's movie", in fact I'd say it is a very good movie that didn't need to be better or compare to Gojira.

Shin Godzilla also approached it like art. Not everything in the franchise has to live up to '54.


Did I say there's anything wrong with it being a children's movie? Did I say it has to live up to '54?

Did you pay attention to what I was actually responding to and why before you jumped to getting defensive?

Added in 2 minutes 36 seconds:
miguelnuva wrote:
I never said Mothra vs Godzilla was made better just that I find more entertainment in the 64 films


Actually what you said was

Both the 64 films topped Gojira especially Mothra vs Godzilla.


and that's what I was responding to, which is why I quoted it in said response.

This doesn't have to be so tedious.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:51 pm

BARAGONBREH wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
BARAGONBREH wrote:
Yep. Mothra was a children's movie. A decent one, but still a children's movie - and not high-quality, "children's-movie-but-actually-pretty-deep-for-adults" Pixar-style children's movie.

Ghidorah is a decently amusing B movie for people who dig kaiju.

Gojira approached something like art, or at least the closest anyone has thus far gotten to art when making a movie about a giant monster destroying everything.

No contest.

There's nothing wrong with Mothra vs Godzilla being a "children's movie", in fact I'd say it is a very good movie that didn't need to be better or compare to Gojira.

Shin Godzilla also approached it like art. Not everything in the franchise has to live up to '54.


Did I say there's anything wrong with it being a children's movie? Did I say it has to live up to '54?

Did you pay attention to what I was actually responding to and why before you jumped to getting defensive?

Why are you playing the attention card? I'm not trying to be defensive I'm just having a conversation. Like Mr. Goji and Watch said it's not a children's movie, but it is rather lighthearted.

To answer your question, no you didn't say any of those particular things.

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Mothra vs Godzilla isn't even a children's movie lol. Honda and his crew made it with the intent of appealing to everybody. There's some comedic gags here and there (not that comedy = childish) but it never talks down to the audience in any way or appeal to kids specifically. The only Godzilla films that were actually made for kids were those made from 1969-1975 and 2002-2004. You could reach and argue that some of the Heisei movies were made for them because of all of the money made from Bandai figures.

Well said. Yeah, everything from '92 onward felt like they were made for kids, especially the ROM trilogy.
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Dv-218 wrote:This is so sad, Alexa play "Bio-Wars".

Dr. Professor wrote:If I had a dollar for every "SAVE MOTHRA" joke, I'd be able to buy Legendary Pictures, renew the license for Godzilla, acquire the rights to the rest of the Toho monsters, and make a Godzilla film that totally bombs without even putting a dent in my bank account.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby BARAGONBREH » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:00 pm

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Mothra vs Godzilla isn't even a children's movie lol. Honda and his crew made it with the intent of appealing to everybody.


Including children.

I won't bother arguing about the specifics of genre, since 1. it's incredibly boring and nobody who isn't unhealthily invested in fiction and pop media cares; 2. there's a different definition of any given genre for every individual defining it; and 3. the fact you admit it's made with the intent to appeal to everybody including children is enough for me to stand by my point.
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gottatalktothefake wrote:I’m kinda disappointed, I just expected to LOVE it. I just thought it was an alright 6/10.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:16 am

BARAGONBREH wrote:Including children.


OK? That doesn't mean it's strictly a children's film that you can compare to Pixar in terms of being in the same genre. Even if you believed that, you'd have to put it on the same caliber as Pixar's productions anyways, since Honda set out to make "something that all ages will find interesting." Which he did, shown by it's abnormally high attendances for re-releases decades later and universal praise amongst even the most smooth-brained Godzilla fans across all ages. If somebody still thinks its 'merely a children's movie', a film's genre doesn't mean that it's inherently worse than a deathly serious sci-fi film. Mothra vs Godzilla can't just be dismissed as being worse than the original Godzilla simply on the basis of the genre you think it's in. MvG is less potent thematically and thus a weaker film for most (including me), but you can't argue weaker themes are what make it (or is a symptom of being) a kids movie. If we're taking the thematic content into account and how they're told to the audience, they're both conveying things Honda strongly believed in through some heavy handed and imagery, arguably overbearingly so in Godzilla's case. They both basically have a humanist anti-nuclear war theme, where the original leans more into a mournful, dire angle while MvG is cautionary yet optimistic. If we're looking at them simply from a craftsmanship point of view they both have a similar amount of continuity errors, editing mistakes, and revealing special effects shots. Godzilla even has some rough acting from the leading actress.

But yeah, as you said different individuals have different definitions for genres so it's not really worth discussing this as you've already made it clear you think my apparent 'admission' of something is enough for you to stand by your point, plus you don't think this is interesting for others.
Last edited by Mr_Goji_and_Watch on Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

on 12-31-2017, Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Nobody in the West can do the Oxygen Destroyer justice, especially not for some new Godzilla popcorn flick.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby zilla92 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:14 am

I think the potential is there for it to be the best. Gojira is still tops in my book but this being a modern day big budget Hollywood film, with a true fan at the helm in Dougherty, a cast that includes true fans, and a writers room of people who seem to “get it” definitely have this on pace to have the ability to be to be the best. But in actuality, saying any of Goji’s movies is the best is simply a matter of opinion to each individual. I love many Goji films I’m sure a lot of you hate. Some hold nostalgia for me from watching with my grandfather or reminding me of playing with my Shogun Godzilla or GLJ Godzilla when I was a kid while watching. Hope that made sense.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby PitchBlackProgress » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:18 am

It’ll be the best Hollywood Godzilla movie
Yeah, Godzilla wins... sometimes. I mean, he was killed by Dr. Serizawa's patented bubble-bath formula, heartburn, missiles, and poor box office returns, got his ass kicked by a drunken, circus-escaped gorilla, then he was beaten by two newborn worms, yeah some “king”.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby BARAGONBREH » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:25 am

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:
BARAGONBREH wrote:Including children.


you'd have to put it on the same caliber as Pixar's productions anyways, since Honda set out to make "something that all ages will find interesting." Which he did, shown by it's abnormally high attendances


Godzilla v Mothra could have a billion more views than every movie Pixar has put out and it still wouldn't mean they're "on the same caliber" lol. What are you talking about? Do you honestly believe that a work's creative value is to be determined by popular attendance? Cuz if so, I've got some real "masterpieces" to tell ya about...
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gottatalktothefake wrote:I’m kinda disappointed, I just expected to LOVE it. I just thought it was an alright 6/10.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:25 am

BARAGONBREH wrote:Godzilla v Mothra could have a billion more views than every movie Pixar has put out and it still wouldn't mean they're "on the same caliber" lol. What are you talking about? Do you honestly believe that a work's creative value is to be determined by popular attendance? Cuz if so, I've got some real "masterpieces" to tell ya about...


Word of mouth a pretty good indicator of value and critical merit, especially when it's decades after the fact. Let's not misread my arguments and think you can compare MVG to brainless American popcorn flicks like The Avengers or Godzilla 2014. Or ignore straight up ignore/dismiss them but I think that says enough on it's own.....
Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

on 12-31-2017, Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Nobody in the West can do the Oxygen Destroyer justice, especially not for some new Godzilla popcorn flick.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby BARAGONBREH » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:33 am

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Word of mouth a pretty good indicator of value and critical merit


What?

You do know what "critical merit" means, right?

It is the merit of a film according to respected film critics as opposed to general audiences.

So, no. A movie with a cult following that regularly watches and talks about a movie does not in any way indicate "critical merit". Sometimes the two intersect and quite often they do not.

If you wanna discuss critical merit, go ahead and let me know how many respected critics praise Mothra vs Godzilla these days. Respected critics, mind you. Not Joe Gangnamstyle from JapanComicBookReviews.tv or something.

Should be pretty funny.
Last edited by BARAGONBREH on Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:01 am

BARAGONBREH wrote:snip

No need to bring up reviews when the movie is literally in the Criterion Collection, admired with most of Honda's filmography by filmmakers such as Kurosawa and Scorsese, and praised in scholarly books. Not that there are any good reviews anyways, because Western critics missed all subtext in favor of critiquing non-issues like dubbing/scientific plausibility, there were preconceived notions of Japanese products being cheap, and it's 'science fiction', a historically maligned genre not just in America, but the rest of the world as well. The original Godzilla barely got some of it's due in the early 80's, and didn't even get wider recognition until 2004. Even then we had Roger Ebert dismissing it over a lack of realism and failing to recognize the craftsmanship and artistic merit conveyed though it. It's common knowledge that most aren't gonna give these movies the time of the day due to literal 1960's-esque attitudes still being around. Am I saying MvG is as a good as the first Godzilla, no. But it says enough when a masterpiece like it barely got it's due 50 years later.
Last edited by Mr_Goji_and_Watch on Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

on 12-31-2017, Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Nobody in the West can do the Oxygen Destroyer justice, especially not for some new Godzilla popcorn flick.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Smuggers » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:34 am

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:No need to bring up reviews when the movie is literally in the Criterion Collection.

I'm sure the Cars trilogy will be following shortly, it's bound to happen since they're on the same caliber as MvG. :lol:
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:35 am

Smuggers wrote:I'm sure the Cars trilogy will be following shortly, it's bound to happen since they're on the same caliber as MvG. :lol:


Anybody else never coming back to this thread now
Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

on 12-31-2017, Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Nobody in the West can do the Oxygen Destroyer justice, especially not for some new Godzilla popcorn flick.

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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Terasawa » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:40 am

Re: the children's movie argument

I think a "children's movie" is a movie made specifically to be enjoyed by children. It can appeal to adults too, but the primary audience is children. By the time Toho was making Mothra vs. Godzilla I'm sure they were aware that kaiju movies were popular with young boys, but I honestly don't think the movie was made for that audience. I don't think it's a children's film for that reason, although it was (and is) certainly enjoyed by kids.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby BARAGONBREH » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:53 am

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:
BARAGONBREH wrote:snip

No need to bring up reviews


When discussing "critical merit", there's no need to bring up reviews by critics? Explain your logic.

When you're claiming something is criticallywhen the movie is literally in the Criterion Collection,


Yeah, that's hardly the distinction it was once thought to be. One word: Armageddon.

praised in scholarly books.


Some citations would be nice.

Not that there are any good reviews anyways, because Western critics blah blah they won't validate my obsessions


You're the one who brought up "critical merit" while trying to justify your favorable comparison between MVG and Pixar, bud. Your bad.

Roger Ebert dismissing it over a lack of realism and failing to recognize the craftsmanship and artistic merit


Actually he recognized it had merit. He just still didn't like it because he thought it was cheeseball, which of course, it is. I disagree with his review but you're misrepresenting what he actually said. It was a negative review but it was fair and recognized the social/cultural importance of the film. Just because one critic made a fair point about cheesiness and confesses they couldn't personally enjoy the film because of it doesn't mean they "failed to recognize" anything.
Last edited by BARAGONBREH on Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Will King of the Monsters be the best Godzilla yet?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:10 pm

BARAGONBREH wrote:When discussing "critical merit", there's no need to bring up reviews by critics? Explain your logic.

It has merit when looked under a critical eye. It's an objectively well made film that achieves what it set out to do. I don't care for what reviewers think until you brought it up. Perhaps I used the wrong word but I feel that was conveyed enough and I don't care about arguing over semantics of those two words.

Yeah, that's hardly the distinction it was once thought to be. One word: Armageddon.


One Criterion Collection release done back in the 90's doesn't define the label decades after the fact.
Some citations would be nice.

The Ishiro Honda biography by Ryfle and Godziszewski, and A Critical History and Filmography of Toho’s Godzilla Series by Kalat

You're the one who brought up "critical merit" while trying to justify your favorable comparison between MVG and Pixar, bud. Your bad.

Misinterpreted that.

Actually he recognized it had merit. He just still didn't like it because he thought it was cheeseball, which of course, it is. I disagree with his review but you're misrepresenting what he actually said. It was a negative review but it was fair and recognized the social/cultural importance of the film. Just because one critic made a fair point about cheesiness and confesses they couldn't personally enjoy the film because of it doesn't mean they "failed to recognize" anything.


He ends off saying "this is a bad movie" that one would watch "not because of it's artistic stature." It's pretty evident that he doesn't respect it beyond recognizing obvious visual parallels with the atomic bombings. You can recognize what you consider to be cheesy elements while still acknowledging that it's a potently charged movie that's crafted extremely well for the most part.
Last edited by Mr_Goji_and_Watch on Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

on 12-31-2017, Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Nobody in the West can do the Oxygen Destroyer justice, especially not for some new Godzilla popcorn flick.


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