Rodan and Ghidorah's stationary looks

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

"Cheap and crude". "Catered for kids". They weren't designed to cater to children until the 70s. Even then, the 70s half had a lot of great things to offer; I'm skreeonking annoyed when people lump the Showa series together as one thing.

I just wish people would respect the whole Showa Era instead of bashing it. I gotta agree with UltramanGoji and Mr Goji and Watch here.

[UltramanGoji]

UltramanGoji and GalacticPetey:

You guys do understand that the majority of the Showa films ARE cheap and crude, right?

Completely subjective statements. Don't try it, Anakin.

That was kind of the intent. And not just aesthetically: these movies were designed to be so in every regard: TO CATER TO CHILDREN. The professional team behind these films weren't trying to recreate Gojira or King Kong '33.

See, this kind of indicates to me that you have zero idea what you are talking about. You clearly don't know.

Sure, these films aren't trying to compete with the original, not at all. But...to cater to children? That's just blatantly wrong.

It's true that a majority of the later Showa films were made with some idea towards attracting the younger market (what with the Champion Matsuri edits and the redesign and mannerisms of the 70's Godzilla), but as a whole they most certainly are not exclusively for children.

King Kong vs. Godzilla's salaryman comedy will go completely over the heads of all children, Mothra vs. Godzilla's capitalistic message as well. Ghidorah's assassination plot is definitely not something to get the kiddies going. Even films like Godzilla's Revenge have themes of neglect and statements on latchkey children. These are just a few examples of stuff in the Showa series that are almost exclusively not for children.

So am I saying the Showa series is strictly an adult-only group of films? Absolutely not. The proper term might be "for all ages". There's something for everybody to enjoy. These films are competently made, they aren't like American science fiction films of the 50's where films were made with money and money only on the mind. To Ishiro Honda and Motoyoshi Oda, these films were art to them (Jun Fukuda has gone on record saying that he didn't enjoy his Godzilla films, but I like to believe he still put some effort and vision into them).

To say I am dismissing the efforts of the creative team is a bit brash.

Not in the slightest. There's no argument, it's what you're doing. It doesn't matter how you phrase it.

I am not so much displeased with the work of the team behind the films as much as I am the studio's decision to regurgitate Power Rangers movies year after year. If you bash the Star Wars prequels, DCEU movies, Jurassic Park sequels, Godzilla '98, you are placing full blame on the execs/studio, not the people working beneath them. The same thing is happening here.

Okay...now it's all about how much money the producers throw at the effects teams?

I'm sorry, see this how you will, but this isn't going anywhere and I refuse to continue this anymore. I've made more than enough statements to support why I think deriding the Showa series for it's effects is disrespectful and it's clear you won't understand it no matter how many ways I put it.

[Ryguy]

Well whatever. Just elitist fans being elitist fans I guess. I was stupid to think the late 2010's would allow humanity to eclipse the "getting offended about every petty, insignificant matter" thing that 13 year old girls do, but whatfuckingever

But I don't feel like getting a warning, so I'm gonna end that here, and I have way grander problems than something so stupid.

Anyway, back on topic. Rodan and Ghidorah need to have wings. That's a must

[KingKong2005]

How tall do you think Rodan should be? I think his height would be taken into account when designing his look. A 300 ft tall Rodan would make for a more muscular and thicker design, I like the idea of him being 300 ft tall when being bipedal but if he went quadruple his wings would be used as his arms much like Quetzocoatl as he's hunched

[BlankAccount]

Different strokes, different folks.

Oh my.

[vibramrunner]

How tall do you think Rodan should be? I think his height would be taken into account when designing his look. A 300 ft tall Rodan would make for a more muscular and thicker design, I like the idea of him being 300 ft tall when being bipedal but if he went quadruple his wings would be used as his arms much like Quetzocoatl as he's hunched

I like 300 feet from head to toe, big enough to knock Godzilla through a few buildings if he flew into him. Male MUTO but larger and less cutaways and I'm happy.

[KingKong2005]

How tall do you think Rodan should be? I think his height would be taken into account when designing his look. A 300 ft tall Rodan would make for a more muscular and thicker design, I like the idea of him being 300 ft tall when being bipedal but if he went quadruple his wings would be used as his arms much like Quetzocoatl as he's hunched

I like 300 feet from head to toe, big enough to knock Godzilla through a few buildings if he flew into him. Male MUTO but larger and less cutaways and I'm happy.

Exactly, same here!

[KingKaiju]

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, but just my 2 cents, and then we can leave it at that.

1. I don't see how Legendary took anything away from Godzilla by taking liberties with his design. Yes, it's very different, but all the characteristics that make him Godzilla are still there. Godzilla, and other characters like him, have and will always change throughout the years. You will never get one static look, which isn't important. His characteristics and traits are what matters, which is what the '98 film failed to capture. It's like how people complained that Hugh Jackman wasn't a good Wolverine, because he wasn't 5' 2", or that Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm, The Human Torch, is the reason why they awful Fantastic Four movie failed. The truth is that, both of those actors played the character fine. They captures the core characteristics of those specific characters. In their cases, the height and ethnicity of the characters were what people questioned, but those have never been the defining characteristics. Godzilla is no different.

2. Yes, the showa films that came after 1965 were starting to be geared towards children. However, the original five to six films, while appealing to children, carried serious and dark themes, that with messages of nuclear war, destruction of the environment and earth, and overall consequences of negative human action. I would actually argue that the Heisei and Millenium series are MORE cheesy and geared for kids than those first five or six heisei films. Films like Rodan were straight up horror movies, hence why he didn't even need to show up until the last 30 minutes or so. I also think that's why, as I get older, I tend to appreciate the kaiju films from the early 50's and 60' more than the 90's and 00's. When I was a kid, those were the best, because they were newer and more visually appealing. But they lost a lot of the substance that those early films carried. In a way, those early films were really ahead of their time. Obviously, as they went on, it became about fitting with the times and simply bringing in dollars, which led to short cuts and decrease in quality. But the work and craft that went into them were anything but cheap, which is why guys like George Lucas and Spielberg have referenced Tsuburaya's work as an influence in their filming career. You just don't find the kind of craft and puppeteering today that you did back then, mainly because now we have advanced technology to rely on. But, for the time, the crafting that went into those designs and suits were amazing, not to mention the kind of details that you find with the sets. I've seen photos of Tsuburaya's sets, next to real photos of the cities during that time, and they're identical. That doesn't mean that they weren't cheesy, because they were. The fact is that those films didn't have the budgets to match the type the quality of American cinema, but who did? They did what they could with them, and they have had lasting effects. They're not for everyone, and that's fine. We all have different tastes, so it's whatever. I can't get mad if someone dislikes them. Who am I to tell anyone they're wrong? All film is subjective. The Fast and Furious series makes tons of money, but I think they're garbage. A lot of Star Wars fans hated "The Last Jedi", I think they're just complaining because Chewy didn't have enough speaking lines. Everyone has their own thing, nothing wrong with that. But, to my point, obviously, looking back it looks cheesy now, but it's all about context. I remember when I first saw Star Wars, and I thought, "The hell is this shit? It looks so cheap!" especially considering that I had seen films like Terminator 2 (which looks funny now, but still decent) and Jurassic Park (which still holds up well). It's all about context.

3. I want Rodan to be smaller than Godzilla, but not Heisei small. And I really do hope that the designs of Rodan and Ghidorah mirror that of the showa designs. Specifically, I really want them to play off the '56 Rodan look, and the '64 Ghidorah. I also hope that Ghidorah's chirp/roar is brought in somehow. I liked his heisei roar, but knowing that it's just a sped up Rodan roar (or reverse, I can't remember) just cheapens it for me. The showa roar was different and unique. Hell, give one head the showa roar, one head the heisei roar, and one hear the GMK roar. He's got three heads for a reason!

[KingKong2005]

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, but just my 2 cents, and then we can leave it at that.

1. I don't see how Legendary took anything away from Godzilla by taking liberties with his design. Yes, it's very different, but all the characteristics that make him Godzilla are still there. Godzilla, and other characters like him, have and will always change throughout the years. You will never get one static look, which isn't important. His characteristics and traits are what matters, which is what the '98 film failed to capture. It's like how people complained that Hugh Jackman wasn't a good Wolverine, because he wasn't 5' 2", or that Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm, The Human Torch, is the reason why they awful Fantastic Four movie failed. The truth is that, both of those actors played the character fine. They captures the core characteristics of those specific characters. In their cases, the height and ethnicity of the characters were what people questioned, but those have never been the defining characteristics. Godzilla is no different.

Yeah I am fine with Godzilla's design. Bigger dorsal fins would be good but I don't mind how it is now, the feet are fine and the head and gills and body are all fine.

[KingKaiju]

Yeah I am fine with Godzilla's design. Bigger dorsal fins would be good but I don't mind how it is now, the feet are fine and the head and gills and body are all fine.

I'm with you. It's not my favorite design, but I like where they took it. I'm all for trying new things, as long as you don't stray away from what makes him Godzilla.

[Ryguy]

Godzilla 54 is a kids movie? News to me...

Also, yes it is certainly premature to call older films outdated just because they're old; I agree with you there. But let's admit it, and you can feel free to wish me whatever kind of hell you please, but a lot of the Showa movies have aged horribly. The first film is still beautiful, but do you watch Godzilla's Revenge, Godzilla vs whatever the fuck, or Son of Godzilla and think "Wow, what flawless masterpieces these are"? I don't think many people do.

I mean, kaiju talking (Minya in the English version of Godzilla's Revenge is the fucking worst), Godzilla flying, Godzilla acting like a human father? Really? Is this the kind of thing I'm supposed to "respect" after daikaiju history was painted elegantly in 54? You can't shit on Godzilla 98 but praise such lunacy, because at least it didn't taint the franchise with such obsurdity (stupid as that movie is, come on, admit it). Yes, those movies provided groundwork for what was to come later, but they were arguably "less Godzilla" than 98 was. Because as far as I'm aware, Godzilla didn't talk, interact with other monsters like a human, or fly in 54.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

...Because times change? It was a different Godzilla individual? Oh no Godzilla's displaying personality- what a horrible choice!

Literally all Godzilla eras have shown "obsurdiy"- like Miki lifting that table up like the Force in Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla.

[Maritonic]

). Yes, those movies provided groundwork for what was to come later, but they were arguably "less Godzilla" than 98 was.

I cannot believe I just read these words. Wow.

[GalacticPetey]

Godzilla 54 is a kids movie? News to me...

Also, yes it is certainly premature to call older films outdated just because they're old; I agree with you there. But let's admit it, and you can feel free to wish me whatever kind of hell you please, but a lot of the Showa movies have aged horribly. The first film is still beautiful, but do you watch Godzilla's Revenge, Godzilla vs whatever the fuck, or Son of Godzilla and think "Wow, what flawless masterpieces these are"? I don't think many people do.

I mean, kaiju talking (Minya in the English version of Godzilla's Revenge is the fucking worst), Godzilla flying, Godzilla acting like a human father? Really? Is this the kind of thing I'm supposed to "respect" after daikaiju history was painted elegantly in 54? You can't shit on Godzilla 98 but praise such lunacy, because at least it didn't taint the franchise with such obsurdity (stupid as that movie is, come on, admit it). Yes, those movies provided groundwork for what was to come later, but they were arguably "less Godzilla" than 98 was. Because as far as I'm aware, Godzilla didn't talk, interact with other monsters like a human, or fly in 54.

I actually do consider Son of Godzilla one of the all time best Godzilla films. Probably in my Top 10. I say that because I like the human characters, the setting, Minya, Kumonga, and some genuinely sweet moments between Godzilla and his son, particularity at the end in the snow.

Godzilla is a character with no strictly defined origin, personality, or power set. He's a fluid character who can take on many roles depending on what services the story.

Because of this, most of my distaste for Godzilla 98 comes less from the design, and more from many unlikable characters, a dreary visual look to the film, a plot that drags, and the overall sense of disregard for the source material from the creative team.

But getting back to the thread's topic. I would much rather Ghidorah be a biped. Never been a fan of the wing walking look for him. With Rodan I can maybe get behind it just because he's already sort of just a big pterodactyl (grossly simplifying), but I feel like if they want to keep Ghidorah imposing and feel otherworldly if they do go with the alien origin, I would say keep in the bipedal stance.

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

But let's admit it, and you can feel free to wish me whatever kind of hell you please, but a lot of the Showa movies have aged horribly.

Speak for yourself, nobody has to "admit" anything.

The first film is still beautiful, but do you watch Godzilla's Revenge, Godzilla vs whatever the fuck, or Son of Godzilla and think "Wow, what flawless masterpieces these are"? I don't think many people do.

Who said anything about Son of Godzilla being a masterpiece? Just because people think some of the more lighthearted sequels are good, well made films (because by objective metrics, they mostly are) it doesn't mean they consider them to be masterpieces.

I mean, kaiju talking (Minya in the English version of Godzilla's Revenge is the fucking worst),

Revenge mostly takes place in a child's dream, and the film makes it ridiculously clear. It's not asking you to take it too seriously.

Godzilla flying, Godzilla acting like a human father? Really? Is this the kind of thing I'm supposed to "respect" after daikaiju history was painted elegantly in 54?

Whether you like it or not, they're just as important to Godzilla as the original film. They've made their impact on the series.

You can't shit on Godzilla 98 but praise such lunacy, because at least it didn't taint the franchise with such obsurdity (stupid as that movie is, come on, admit it).

False equivalent. Godzilla 1998 destroyed the franchises market value in the West. It was a critical failure and huge financial disappointment. The sillier Showa sequels were just dismissed by critics (who praised the effects anyways) and were ultimately harmless.

Yes, those movies provided groundwork for what was to come later, but they were arguably "less Godzilla" than 98 was. Because as far as I'm aware, Godzilla didn't talk, interact with other monsters like a human, or fly in 54.

Fake news. Godzilla 1998 didn't even share the core components of the character. It looked nothing like the original nor did it act like it. Just because you don't like some of the Showa films, it doesn't mean they were bad or they somehow diverted farther away from the original than Godzilla 1998.

Besides, why are we using the original 54 as some gold standard? It's objectively the best film in the series, but outside of Shin Godzilla nothing comes close to how well it portrays the directors themes or how strongly it uses Godzilla to drive said themes. It's silly to constantly use 54 when most of the sequels don't come close and probably never will again. Especially not one from Americans lol

Man I wish I knew what it was about the MonsterVerse section of this forum that brought out so many hot takes.

[Maritonic]

False equivalent. Godzilla 1998 destroyed the franchises market value in the West. It was a critical failure and huge financial disappointment. The sillier Showa sequels were just dismissed by critics (who praised the effects anyways) and were ultimately harmless.

SAY IT LOUDER FOR THOSE IN THE BACK!

Seriously, this is verging on trolling. Personal taste in film is awesome, and encouraged. But to imply that ALL the Showa films (save for Gojira) are garbage is an opinion I never thought I'd hear a "Godzilla fan" utter. Even the films I don't particularly love, I still respect because they're part of the legacy and worthy of recognition as such. I've disagreed with a lot of people's opinion of what makes a good or bad Godzilla film, but at the end of the day it's still Godzilla and it's a character we love.

As I said, this is just starting to come across as trolling.

[Relair]

So I guess somebody not taking a liking towards some crudely-designed and clumsy dragon constructed in the 60s and animated with cheap costumes and wiring while stomping on cardboard suddenly makes them less credible? Ok.

Wow. The original KG is the only one that hasn't looked like crap. The wings actually flapped gracefully, the necks flailed around realistically, etc. In 91 it was a joke, he was a big wooden looking glider. They have yet to top the original in design or execution. And this coming from someone who thought Final Wars Mothra and G14 Godzilla are the best incarnations, its not a rose tinted glasses situation.

Fake news. Godzilla 1998 didn't even share the core components of the character. It looked nothing like the original nor did it act like it. Just because you don't like some of the Showa films, it doesn't mean they were bad or they somehow diverted farther away from the original than Godzilla 1998.

Besides, why are we using the original 54 as some gold standard? It's objectively the best film in the series, but outside of Shin Godzilla nothing comes close to how well it portrays the directors themes or how strongly it uses Godzilla to drive said themes. It's silly to constantly use 54 when most of the sequels don't come close and probably never will again. Especially not one from Americans lol

Thats kind of an ironic statement though. Shin didnt act or look like the original either. He was even more of a freakish deviant than 98. Just because thematically the movie was similar to the original, it doesn't give the monster design a free pass. He was a freaking jelly filled tadpole that turned into armless jerky that turned into a thing with a face that splits open like the Predator with people growing off his tail that shoots laserbeams from every orifice. Tell me thats not more of a deviation than being a thinner, faster, less tough giant lizard.

[vibramrunner]

Showa Godzilla movies to me are like a nice, warm pillow on a cold day. It's difficult to quantify "good," but there's a lot that's really endearing -- they're strange, unique and absolutely original, and of course have been endlessly imitated and referenced in pop culture. Most everything "dated" about these movies, to me, fall into the "so bad it's good" category: I wouldn't have it any other way. And "dated" =/= "low budget" btw.

If you can't appreciate movies like this, I would recommend watching Brixby Bear with Kyle Mooney and Mark Hamill. That really captures how I feel about nostalgia sci-fi in general.

[KingKaiju]

“Mothra vs. Godzilla” is still my gold standard for all Godzilla films, except the original of course. But I still think that that film stands out on its own, just being a different type of film.

Back on topic though, how would you all feel about Rodan having a similar body type to Sauron, from The X-Men. Obviously, Rodan isn’t a humanoid, so it wouldn’t be EXACTLY the same. But the idea for a bipedal flying creature is what I’m thinking.

[Gawdziller1954]

So I guess somebody not taking a liking towards some crudely-designed and clumsy dragon constructed in the 60s and animated with cheap costumes and wiring while stomping on cardboard suddenly makes them less credible? Ok.

Wow. The original KG is the only one that hasn't looked like crap. The wings actually flapped gracefully, the necks flailed around realistically, etc. In 91 it was a joke, he was a big wooden looking glider. They have yet to top the original in design or execution. And this coming from someone who thought Final Wars Mothra and G14 Godzilla are the best incarnations, its not a rose tinted glasses situation.

Fake news. Godzilla 1998 didn't even share the core components of the character. It looked nothing like the original nor did it act like it. Just because you don't like some of the Showa films, it doesn't mean they were bad or they somehow diverted farther away from the original than Godzilla 1998.

Besides, why are we using the original 54 as some gold standard? It's objectively the best film in the series, but outside of Shin Godzilla nothing comes close to how well it portrays the directors themes or how strongly it uses Godzilla to drive said themes. It's silly to constantly use 54 when most of the sequels don't come close and probably never will again. Especially not one from Americans lol

Thats kind of an ironic statement though. Shin didnt act or look like the original either. He was even more of a freakish deviant than 98. Just because thematically the movie was similar to the original, it doesn't give the monster design a free pass. He was a freaking jelly filled tadpole that turned into armless jerky that turned into a thing with a face that splits open like the Predator with people growing off his tail that shoots laserbeams from every orifice. Tell me thats not more of a deviation than being a thinner, faster, less tough giant lizard.

Well, let's see:

Traditional Godzilla is a massive prehistoric reptile awakened and mutated by nuclear energy. It stands upright with large, pillar-like legs that end in massive claws. The body is massive and -fat- bolky.The arms are malformed and twisted, but not useless. It can fire a beam of ionized radiation from it's mouth or a flurry of beams from it's back and belly. The dorsal plates are maple leaf shaped. It has a black, twisted, and scarred hide reminiscent of a nuclear burn. Godzilla is immune to most military weaponry. Gdzilla usually moves quite slowly. It's motives range from revenge to defender of humanity. Though it's gender is usually never stated, it is generally accepted that Godzilla is a male.

GINO is a green iguana that somehow found it's way from the galapagos to French Polynesia. Here, as an egg, it was hit by nuclear raidiation. The creature is similar to a tyrannosaur in posture, being horizontal. It is thin with a tapering tail and almost deformed upper torso. massive scutes line the dorsum, almost like stalagmites. GINO can run up to 200 MP/H. It has no atomic powers whatsoever and is extremely easy to kill with just conventional weaponry. Though it is referred to as an "asexual male", GINO is almost certainly female, as basic science dictates that lizards such as iguanas can only asexually reproduce via Parthenogenesis, in which a female lizard creates multiple fertile eggs on it's own. GINO's motives are to breed and propogate it's species.

Shin Godzilla is a marine reptile that was mutated by nuclear energy. It mutates over and over to combat threats, eventually ending up as a massive 389 foot tall behemoth.Shin stands upright, like traditional Godzilla, and has feet that end in large curved claws. The body is massive and large, larger at the hips and tapering to the chest. Shin Godzilla can fire a photon beam from it's mouth, a spray of photon beams from it's back, or a beam from it's tail. The plates are irregular but shaped like maple leaves.The skin is made of a new element that appears burnt and charred. Shin Godzilla is immune to all but the strongest of military weaponry, and even those were only able to slightly injure him.. Shin is usually very slow until it feels threatened. Shin is usually accepted as male.

So, yeah, im telling you it's less of a deviation.