Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
I'd say human size animatronics could mean we are getting Minya.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
Same. Unfortunately, that's not how movie studios look at it. See: entire history of big budget filmmaking.MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote: I totally agree! To me its about the quality of the film rather than desperately wanting to make a ton of money.
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Yes, he will team up with the Power Rangers and the vampires.Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:I'd say human size animatronics could mean we are getting Minya.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
I think rubber suit and animatronic shots mixed with CGI shots would look wonderful and more realistic than 100% if executed right. I don't think suits will be used though.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
I'm not saying KotM should use suits, Baragon. I'm saying that practical effects (be they suits, puppets, or animatronics) HAVE worked in the past in shots that hold up as well as modern CGI.BARAGONBREH wrote:Kaiju-King42 wrote:GINO[...] later two Gamera films[...] great effect
Look, I never said a shot of a foot or the tip of a tail couldn't work. But this talk of suits, big puppets, miniature cities... it's just lulz-worthy and reaffirms how delusional (some of) this fanbase can be at times.
Just because some of us can see their benefits, (and when done well including on a kaiju scale) doesn't make us "delusional."
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
Static images really don't count when discussing how effective things look onscreen in movies. Yeah, the images you posted look nice... as images. Seeing them in motion, not so much. And you may not be specifically talking about suits, but many other people in this thread are. The fact of the matter is monster suits are clunky and sacrifices have to be made in order to use them. The Heisei Gamera movies exemplify this perfectly, actually. They look great in stills, but they can barely goddamn move. In order to pull off kaiju battles like what we got in G'14, KSI, or PR, you HAVE to go full CG. Suits simply aren't capable of moving like that while still looking halfway decent. They either have to look good while sacrificing functionality (see: Heisei Godzilla and Gamera) or be able to function at the cost of looking like ass (see: most Ultraman series). CGI has no such restrictions. And of course that's not even touching on the restrictions on body shape and proportions that suits inherently require simply by needing to be worn by a human which obviously don't exist with CGI.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
They're giant monsters, they're gonna be cumbersome. Hell they purposely made some of them so in the CGI films. Okay since motion was brought up, with CGI you constantly have to readjust the lighting & shading every time a CGI character moves so they are interacting with it realistically, with a practical effect you don't have to worry about that because a puppet, animaltronic, prop or whatever is actually there and interacting with the lighting & shading. The heisei Gamera suits looked fine in motion to me, other than a few odd scenes, so if that's bad then I don't ever wanna have good taste.Inferno Rodan wrote:Static images really don't count when discussing how effective things look onscreen in movies. Yeah, the images you posted look nice... as images. Seeing them in motion, not so much. And you may not be specifically talking about suits, but many other people in this thread are. The fact of the matter is monster suits are clunky and sacrifices have to be made in order to use them. The Heisei Gamera movies exemplify this perfectly, actually. They look great in stills, but they can barely goddamn move. In order to pull off kaiju battles like what we got in G'14, KSI, or PR, you HAVE to go full CG. Suits simply aren't capable of moving like that while still looking halfway decent. They either have to look good while sacrificing functionality (see: Heisei Godzilla and Gamera) or be able to function at the cost of looking like ass (see: most Ultraman series). CGI has no such restrictions. And of course that's not even touching on the restrictions on body shape and proportions that suits inherently require simply by needing to be worn by a human which obviously don't exist with CGI.
In the end it doesn't really matter because Legendary is gonna use both practical and digital and they probably know what they are doing, they are hiring people in the industry who have years of experience with pulling off certain FXs and are bringing them together. That's all that really matters, can they pull them off so that match and don't clash with each other.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
There's a difference between relying on CGI as a go-to, and assuming that someone that actually wants to use practical effects in the mix is going to lose box office because of it. The latter is an unfounded conclusion from the former.BARAGONBREH wrote:Then go explain your reasoning to every single Hollywood film studio that has relied either heavily or exclusively on CGI for "giant monsters" for the last couple decades. You may not believe there's any basis for it, but the people who matter clearly do.Zarm wrote:There is an assumption that somehow, box office numbers would be sacrificed. I don't think there's any basis for that.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
Wasn't the Golden Gate Bridge a giant practical effect in G14? The road bed and railing at least with the cables and Godzilla incorporated as CGI.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
On the contrary, the shot of Gamera as seen from inside the jeep looks best in motion--and looks easily as convincing as any of the shots that were done similarly with CGI in Godzilla 2014. Also, the suit effects from the scene in Gamera 3 posted here look great in motion and still hold up really well.Inferno Rodan wrote:Static images really don't count when discussing how effective things look onscreen in movies. Yeah, the images you posted look nice... as images. Seeing them in motion, not so much.
And that animatronic head and torso from Godzilla 1998? The effects scenes using that one--and those that used other actual physical props, including puppets and *gasp* a man in a suit--hold up way better than the majority of the CGI, especially in motion. Most of the miniatures are not so successful, honestly, but that's largely because they lit them like the film was taking place in Tim Burton's Gotham.
First of all, that isn't because they're men in suits. It's because the series has always been mocked for being men in suits. There's an inescapable stigma around that as a result.Ryguy wrote:But giant monsters, in today's day and age, need to be heavily computer generated in order to look good on the screen. Why don't y'all go approach a random stranger and ask what they think about some of the Toho films prior to Shin Godzilla, VFX-wise? They are going to say it looks cheesy.
Also, there are people who would tell you that any effects that aren't modern Hollywood CGI are cheesy or that they don't watch black and white movies. Some people just refuse to accept anything that isn't modern.
I'm curious where you get the idea that any suits they used (if they even use any) would not be "tampered with" in post-production. They absolutely would be.Ryguy wrote:Suits don't cut it anymore in daikaiju films, not without post-production tampering (as what was done with Shin Godzilla).
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
I do find this entire thread surreal, as Star Trek fandom/message boards across the internet is having almost-literally the exact same conversation regarding aesthetics and designs for the new prequel series... particularly the 'this is the 21st century, no one would accept X' vs. the 'X still works well and could be executed even better with modern technology than it was in decades past' debate. (That's why I did a double-take when I first saw this thread). Apparently, some things are universal to nerd-dom.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
We'll just have to see. I don't think it's going to be a lot of what people are hoping for.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
There you go again saying things when you don't know the actual definitions of the words you're using. Cumbersome means awkward and unwieldy because of great weight. The kaiju in G'14, KSI, and PR are anything but awkward and unwieldy. They all have a great sense of mass, yes, but they do so without being cumbersome. That was literally my entire point regarding suits vs CGI.Living Corpse wrote:They're giant monsters, they're gonna be cumbersome. Hell they purposely made some of them so in the CGI films.
That's not how it works. The animation is done first, then lighting and shading are added after the fact. And it doesn't have to be adjusted every time the model moves either. The animator places light sources at the appropriate points in the scene, and the software handles it from there. Computers are magical things.Okay since motion was brought up, with CGI you constantly have to readjust the lighting & shading every time a CGI character moves so they are interacting with it realistically, with a practical effect you don't have to worry about that because a puppet, animaltronic, prop or whatever is actually there and interacting with the lighting & shading.
They only look decent in motion because they can barely move. Again, this is literally my entire bloody point. The final battle in G3 starts off with a great aerial dogfight sequence that is largely CG, and then once they touch the ground and switch completely to suits it turns into an utter snoozefest of a battle that consists of a lethargic shoving contest followed by what amounts to an extended staring contest.RandomDeinonychus wrote:On the contrary, the shot of Gamera as seen from inside the jeep looks best in motion--and looks easily as convincing as any of the shots that were done similarly with CGI in Godzilla 2014. Also, the suit effects from the scene in Gamera 3 posted here look great in motion and still hold up really well.
The only man-in-suit effects in G'98 were of the babies, IIRC, which again is an entirely different subject. And I never once disputed the fact that the scenes with animatronics or props held up better than the fully CGI ones. Practical effects abso-goddamn-lutely still have a place in modern big-budget giant monster movies. I'm only saying that suitmation as the main method of bringing the giant monsters themselves to life does not.And that animatronic head and torso from Godzilla 1998? The effects scenes using that one--and those that used other actual physical props, including puppets and *gasp* a man in a suit--hold up way better than the majority of the CGI, especially in motion. Most of the miniatures are not so successful, honestly, but that's largely because they lit them like the film was taking place in Tim Burton's Gotham.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
No, your point was that the suits / puppets in the examples look fine in stills, but not in motion. I was pointing out that that wasn't true, and now you've changed to "they look fine because they barely move." That's not what you said originally, first of all, and second of all, "they can barely move" isn't even true!Inferno Rodan wrote:They only look decent in motion because they can barely move. Again, this is literally my entire bloody point.RandomDeinonychus wrote:On the contrary, the shot of Gamera as seen from inside the jeep looks best in motion--and looks easily as convincing as any of the shots that were done similarly with CGI in Godzilla 2014. Also, the suit effects from the scene in Gamera 3 posted here look great in motion and still hold up really well.
Wow, I'm not even a fan of Gamera 3 and that doesn't describe the scene at all.The final battle in G3 starts off with a great aerial dogfight sequence that is largely CG, and then once they touch the ground and switch completely to suits it turns into an utter snoozefest of a battle that consists of a lethargic shoving contest followed by what amounts to an extended staring contest.
You're dead wrong there, boyo.The only man-in-suit effects in G'98 were of the babies, IIRC, which again is an entirely different subject.
How much of it was actually used in the final film is hard to say, so I'm not claiming that it made up the majority of the final FX shots, but I have a feeling there are a lot more of them that were just the suit enhanced with CGI than you might think at first.
Suitmation is not the only method, no, and I highly doubt anyone has any intention of doing any of the MonsterVerse films that way. But it's ridiculous to act like it can't be a major method because CGI exists.And I never once disputed the fact that the scenes with animatronics or props held up better than the fully CGI ones. Practical effects abso-goddamn-lutely still have a place in modern big-budget giant monster movies. I'm only saying that suitmation as the main method of bringing the giant monsters themselves to life does not.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
So, Gamera and iris' fight is a stare contest? Huh...
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
As silly as this picture is, that's actually really cool. Had no idea there was an actual suit involved in G '98, even if it was only for a couple scenes. Leads me to believe it wouldn't be such a bad idea for Legendary Goji to adopt this.RandomDeinonychus wrote:
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
So far, this is the best resource I've found on the practical/suit side of '98...
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-tell-me-a ... zilla-1998
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-tell-me-a ... zilla-1998
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
Well, this thread has turned into quite the debate.
I think they're only going to use practical effects if (when edited as with Shin Godzilla) they look as good as or better than CGI. Some shots will probably have to be tampered with more than others.
I doubt they'll do practical effects with Godzilla (other than maybe a foot or hand) in order to keep his look consistent.
Ghidorah is probably a little too complex to look good with practical effects.
Rodan and Mothra are the real possibilities here, especially a Mothra Larva. Actually, come to think of it, I bet they'll do an Mothra egg-hatching scene with practical effects!
I think they're only going to use practical effects if (when edited as with Shin Godzilla) they look as good as or better than CGI. Some shots will probably have to be tampered with more than others.
I doubt they'll do practical effects with Godzilla (other than maybe a foot or hand) in order to keep his look consistent.
Ghidorah is probably a little too complex to look good with practical effects.
Rodan and Mothra are the real possibilities here, especially a Mothra Larva. Actually, come to think of it, I bet they'll do an Mothra egg-hatching scene with practical effects!
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
I agree. A number of the Gamera Heisei effects look way better than anything in G14.RandomDeinonychus wrote:On the contrary, the shot of Gamera as seen from inside the jeep looks best in motion--and looks easily as convincing as any of the shots that were done similarly with CGI in Godzilla 2014. Also, the suit effects from the scene in Gamera 3 posted here look great in motion and still hold up really well.Inferno Rodan wrote:Static images really don't count when discussing how effective things look onscreen in movies. Yeah, the images you posted look nice... as images. Seeing them in motion, not so much.
And that animatronic head and torso from Godzilla 1998? The effects scenes using that one--and those that used other actual physical props, including puppets and *gasp* a man in a suit--hold up way better than the majority of the CGI, especially in motion. Most of the miniatures are not so successful, honestly, but that's largely because they lit them like the film was taking place in Tim Burton's Gotham.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
ehhh let's not get carried away....BooLugosi wrote:I agree. A number of the Gamera Heisei effects look way better than anything in G14.RandomDeinonychus wrote:On the contrary, the shot of Gamera as seen from inside the jeep looks best in motion--and looks easily as convincing as any of the shots that were done similarly with CGI in Godzilla 2014. Also, the suit effects from the scene in Gamera 3 posted here look great in motion and still hold up really well.Inferno Rodan wrote:Static images really don't count when discussing how effective things look onscreen in movies. Yeah, the images you posted look nice... as images. Seeing them in motion, not so much.
And that animatronic head and torso from Godzilla 1998? The effects scenes using that one--and those that used other actual physical props, including puppets and *gasp* a man in a suit--hold up way better than the majority of the CGI, especially in motion. Most of the miniatures are not so successful, honestly, but that's largely because they lit them like the film was taking place in Tim Burton's Gotham.
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Re: Practical Effects in the Monsterverse!
It's my opinion and I stand by it. I don't think all of the shots with the suits look just as good. That's why I said a number of shots look better. I think suits could blend seamlessly with CGI(And animatronics) and look 100% better than full CGI with the right amount of work and money.morgoth wrote:ehhh let's not get carried away....BooLugosi wrote:I agree. A number of the Gamera Heisei effects look way better than anything in G14.RandomDeinonychus wrote: On the contrary, the shot of Gamera as seen from inside the jeep looks best in motion--and looks easily as convincing as any of the shots that were done similarly with CGI in Godzilla 2014. Also, the suit effects from the scene in Gamera 3 posted here look great in motion and still hold up really well.
And that animatronic head and torso from Godzilla 1998? The effects scenes using that one--and those that used other actual physical props, including puppets and *gasp* a man in a suit--hold up way better than the majority of the CGI, especially in motion. Most of the miniatures are not so successful, honestly, but that's largely because they lit them like the film was taking place in Tim Burton's Gotham.