Toho Kingdom

three wrote:And why does this matter? People have been complaining that we as America's took the creature from the land it hand meaning to and made it a tool for profit. At least now there's a tie in to a major event in American history that makes Godzilla both a threat and relevant to our culture, which it arguably was not before.

It matters because the nuclear age, and the new dangers that it introduced to the world, are universally applicable. Japan may have been the primary victim of humanity's nuclear excess, something that was well-represented in the original film as well as some others, but Godzilla has an international relevance precisely because the threat of annihilation posed by the instruments forged during the atomic age has the potential to effect all mankind. The fear of a nuclear holocaust may be one with which Japan is most intimately acquainted, but all the world has feared it at one time or another.

Further, considering past us - Cuban relations, it does have a bit of a nuclear theme.

The connection between the destruction of the Maine and the Cuban Missile Crisis is a tenuous one at best, conditional on all sorts of events in the US, Cuba, and elsewhere that were only tangentially related, if at all, to the actual sinking.

Living Corpse wrote:

HannibalBarca wrote:But the dawn of the nuclear age is almost universally the starting point.

He became more active in the nuclear age.

For me, Godzilla's importance derives from his relationship to humanity and, perhaps more importantly, human civilization as a whole. Godzilla, within the context of his "standard" origin story, had no significant interaction (or any at all, really) with human civilization at large until the beginning of the nuclear tests in the Pacific proving grounds. Godzilla's ambiguous appearance as a figure in Odo Island folklore strikes me as being relatively unimportant.

Personally, I think a lot of the "impact" of the story is taken away by reducing humanity's role in the origin of Godzilla and other similar monsters from an "active" one of awakening them with nuclear bombs to a "passive" one of simply leaving nuclear submarines and power plants and, I dunno, microwaves lying around; it makes human civilization seem more like a victim of the monsters than irresponsible actors in need of punishment. But, you know, that's just my interpretation. I'm sure everyone has their own.

Can't believe you're still discussing something so irrelevant.
We need more sequel news.

Sorry, Manticore, I didn't know we needed to clear every discussion with you first. I'll be sure to do that next time.

Let them fight.

HannibalBarca wrote:
It matters because the nuclear age, and the new dangers that it introduced to the world, are universally applicable.

i understand this, but much of the criticism is that the connection between Godzilla and his nuclear weapons history is ignore. what is important to note that it was not missed, but rather it cannot so easily be related to by everyone. that is because not everyone was faced with the destruction wrought by atomic weapons the japanese were. in short, the universality of the threat is there, but the representation that is Godzilla is not relatable to us in any way. giving him relevance via historical influence is the next best thing in that regard leading up to his revalation that the threat is not just universal, but that we will all experience it (which the movie did well).

Japan may have been the primary victim of humanity's nuclear excess, something that was well-represented in the original film as well as some others, but Godzilla has an international relevance precisely because the threat of annihilation posed by the instruments forged during the atomic age has the potential to effect all mankind. The fear of a nuclear holocaust may be one with which Japan is most intimately acquainted, but all the world has feared it at one time or another.

yes, and this is demonstrated through the destruction and attacks by the MUTO on our weapons, waste, and nuclear plants. to clarify: there is absolutely no reason to assume that Godzilla's origin must begin at the dawn of the nuclear age. it's a matter of opinion.

The connection between the destruction of the Maine and the Cuban Missile Crisis is a tenuous one at best, conditional on all sorts of events in the US, Cuba, and elsewhere that were only tangentially related, if at all, to the actual sinking.

that's ok, because that wasn't meant to stand as any major point. the point it Godzilla has major historical significance to us and a basis for our seemingly unjustified military provocation of the monster. when he first appeared is entirely subjective and will vary viewer to viewer.

Living Corpse wrote:

iRaMs wrote:Let them fight.

I'm Rodan.

Can I get your Herbie Hancock?

So defensive guys, save your sarcasm. You know what I mean (seriously, one second in the opening titles, are we discussing the cavemen paintings next?), but like you said, it's not like you need my permission or anything.

Chris55 wrote:

gatorzilla wrote:
Heisei Godzilla is supposed to be a force of nature but yet Godzillasaurus outright kills American soldiers? Where is the outrage over that? Or is just because Toho did it that makes it ok?

I will admit that that section of the movie always pissed me off.

you're serious?

^ wow. i never really took the scene personally, but this is something that in discussion with Rodan i would have liked to have known. a great example of the "america vs. japan" sentiment in the film.

three wrote:^ wow. i never really took the scene personally, but this is something that in discussion with Rodan i would have liked to have known. a great example of the "america vs. japan" sentiment in the film.

I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would have been for the Japanese to see Americans bombarding Godzilla on Japanese soil in Mothra vs Godzilla if they didn't cut that scene.

Dinozaurus wrote:

three wrote:^ wow. i never really took the scene personally, but this is something that in discussion with Rodan i would have liked to have known. a great example of the "america vs. japan" sentiment in the film.

I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would have been for the Japanese to see Americans bombarding Godzilla on Japanese soil in Mothra vs Godzilla if they didn't cut that scene.

very, but maybe the japanese are also afraid to face the reality of that war as well.

Living Corpse wrote:

HannibalBarca wrote:But the dawn of the nuclear age is almost universally the starting point.

He became more active in the nuclear age.

Now if anything I don't like is no Tokyo attack. It just takes something away from him, like Superman without the Krypton destruction or Batman without dead parents. Yeah it'd be ridiculous to cover up the Tokyo attack from 1954, but it's just ridiculous that half the people in GMK think it's all faked. Then again some people think the Holocaust was faked so maybe a cover up of a 1954 Tokyo attack isn't so hard.

Living Corpse wrote:

HannibalBarca wrote:Personally, I think a lot of the "impact" of the story is taken away by reducing humanity's role in the origin of Godzilla and other similar monsters from an "active" one of awakening them with nuclear bombs to a "passive" one of simply leaving nuclear submarines and power plants and, I dunno, microwaves lying around; it makes human civilization seem more like a victim of the monsters than irresponsible actors in need of punishment. But, you know, that's just my interpretation. I'm sure everyone has their own.

Oh don't get me wrong, it does make downplay our responsibility a bit, but it's still there. It's just now it feels less like we made Godzilla and more like we attracted a space monster that eats toxins because we pollute ala Hedorah.

I totally get where you're coming from, my friend and I even said in our review that the whole anti-nuke thing seems lightly brushed on and not really a main plot point so much as an afterthought.

And I still feel like Godzilla losses something by not attacking Tokyo in 1954 as a response to the nuclear tests, or in this case, assassination in the Pacific. I know it'd be asinine to say the world governments covered that incident up but hey this is fantasy and it's not like GMK never tried having people forget/not believe in it.

I didn't like how they didn't incorporate the 1954 attack on Tokyo into the G14 backstory either.
It would be cool if they retconned a bit in the sequel and reveal the events of Gojira did happen, but was covered up and forgotten.
Maybe it involved the 108m Godzilla we see in the 2014 film or another 50m Godzilla that was awoken by the atomic bombs used in the attempt to kill the 108m Godzilla that would later re-surface in 2014.

Jesus, I make a thread pointing out something I find interesting, and it gets turned into a warzone.

I just thought it was a kinda interesting thing pointing out how much impact his simple existence has on the human race.

G2000 wrote:Jesus, I make a thread pointing out something I find interesting, and it gets turned into a warzone.

I just thought it was a kinda interesting thing pointing out how much impact his simple existence has on the human race.

Ha!

I wish it was that simple of a discussion.

I'm all for the idea of giant monsters being "behind the scenes" and triggering key events throughout history, whether it makes logical sense (a la the Atomic Age) or not (this whole Maine discussion). But what I find funny is that giant monsters have been around for much longer than we have. Yet here are the cave paintings, recorded history by mankind, depicting this colossal monstrosities. My question is, why are they even there to begin with? Because pre-Industrial Age/Atomic Age man had nothing to deal with atomic power, but here are giant monsters running amok and influencing history. Perhaps the only way to justify the Big G in the Spanish-American War may lay in where uranium pockets lie (obviously this requires geography lessons ). Or the presence of other giant monsters. Take your pick.

I personally don't see a problem using monsters for old tragedies like past wars, historical tragedies (Hindenburg, Titanic, etc). Part of the problem is how it offends people who are related to the people who died; which is why it is extremely distasteful to make funnies out of 9/11 or the Dark Knight shootout, it's too recent and there are still people affected by it. But as long as the only people who are offended by it are long dead it's okay cuz I'm sure they won't care at all, you know, cuz they're dead.

As much as I find it weird that Godzilla had some involvement in this war, one has to remember that in Awakening, Serizawa pulls out paintings and things that clearly depict Godzilla.

I think it opens the door to more monsters/kaiju in further potential movies. Maybe they assigned the War to Godzilla, when it might've been another monster they couldn't identify.

I also remember someone in another thread mentioning how Ghidorah could end up being the what the Greeks called the hydra, the mythical multi-headed sea serpent. Maybe when Ghidorah flew off into space, the Greeks thought he had been seized up by the gods or something. That would be a cool way to link that back-story to this world.