Why are older fans so concerned?

[RedZillaKing]

Well I lived through it and I'm stoll willing to give the film a shot.

[gatorzilla]

Seems to me that the "optimists" who are going after the "pessimists" for having an opinion are taking up a larger percentage of the discussion. Again, look how out of control the "script detail" thread got after Dunkun gave his opinion. It was a good two pages of people telling him he was an idiot.

I dont know the guy but when someone says they are going to turn in their fan card if the movie doesnt specifically meet their demands and then goes and brags about how he can write the ULTIMATE Godzilla film then yeah that will be the subject of criticism.

I think any fan who lived through the consistent failure to get an American Godzilla going through the '80s and then the disastrous almost decade-long GINO nonsense in the '90s has every right to worry and over-analyze the production of this movie. Americanization of Godzilla has a strong history of outright failure. Maybe people who lived through all of that know better...?

Thats more opinion than fact. What are you basing this failure on? Are you referring to American Godzilla films? Or anything American Godzilla in general? American Godzilla films yes I will agree. However anything else American Godzilla no i will not agree. We have had toys, books, comics, magazines, cartoons etc. America was actually the first one that created a piece of Godzilla merchandise with the Aurora model. So films yes but anything else no it has not been a failure.

And people aren't allowed to continue to use what happened in the past to form an opinion of what might happen in the future?

The thing is though you have to look at what are people forming these opinions on? I am just as concerned because of how I was let down with GINO and GFW. The opinions I am seeing from the percentage of fans is they are blaming America saying America cant do Godzilla and its not the real Godzilla unless Toho does it etc. They seem to be under the impression that Toho does no wrong when they clearly did with GFW. Godzilla's 50th anniversary film had the chance to help clean up what GINO did and help Godzilla go out with a bang. Instead they brought on someone who no more of a fan or respected the material than Devlin or Emmerich. If it was Toho doing this film I would be just as concerned based on the way the 50th anniversary film was handled. So let's see if America cant get it right and then let Toho do it again too.

To be fair, "young fans," we older fans have been through the "following the creation of Godzilla movies through the Internet" spiel before, so generally we know what we're talking about. Admittedly, it's made some of us bitter because the Millennium series wasn't exactly a golden age for Godzilla. But, you need an experienced voice, even at times a glass half-empty perspective, to have any kind of discussion about what is happening over the course of the next year and a half because it may give you a "light bulb" moment, that instant of realization where "ooo, I didn't think of that, that's a great point." Bear with us as we are bearing with you.

And I agree with you BUT there is a fine line though when all you hear out those people is "sinking ship" "doomed production" and doom and gloom and nothing positive or discussion of the positives.
This is a project that needs to be looked at from both perspectives. There will be ups and downs. Just because it wont be perfect does NOT mean that the sky is falling and everyone needs to realize that. This movie will need to be looked at as a fan and through a critical standpoint.

I was born in the early 90s so I may be technically a young fan but Ive grown up on Godzilla my whole life and I have done my research on the franchise as a whole and the American production failures.

[RedZillaKing]

Legion please don't lie down with dogs. You sticking up for Donkun leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It should be more than obvious why we jumped on the little bastard. It certainly wasn't because he dared to have an opinion. At least not in my caee.

[RedZillaKing]

People put way too large an emphasis on the importance and influence of the "fanbase".

This I agree with. Of course the fans are somewhat important, but the casual moviegoers are the most important factor by far.

[The_Olden_Thing]

I find the attitudes around here...highly disconcerting. Its one thing to be realistic and hold down expectations in order to minimize disappointment (quite a natural defense mechanism), but the nigh hyperbolic pessimism and aura of negativity, while hardly unique, really makes me shake my head in shame.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

I find the attitudes around here...highly disconcerting. Its one thing to be realistic and hold down expectations in order to minimize disappointment (quite a natural defense mechanism), but the nigh hyperbolic pessimism and aura of negativity, while hardly unique, really makes me shake my head in shame.

I find the blind optimism equally, if not more, nauseating.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

Can we hold off the negativity, optimistic, utopian predictions about this film?

I highly doubt it, man. This has been going on for months. Quite frankly, I'm fucking sick of it all. And usually, it starts because one poor poster says something that triggers a gigantic debate which, usually, consists of a bunch of "Nuh uh!" and "Yuh huh!"

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

Which is why I put a tiny "Who am I kidding?" at the bottom. T.T

I know. I was just adding my own comment.

[The_Olden_Thing]

I find the attitudes around here...highly disconcerting. Its one thing to be realistic and hold down expectations in order to minimize disappointment (quite a natural defense mechanism), but the nigh hyperbolic pessimism and aura of negativity, while hardly unique, really makes me shake my head in shame.

I find the blind optimism equally, if not more, nauseating.

I've yet to see a truly disgusting example thereof on these forums. Just a lot of wishful thinking, which is perfectly natural and not deserving at all of the dismissivness and meanness directed at it.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

I find the attitudes around here...highly disconcerting. Its one thing to be realistic and hold down expectations in order to minimize disappointment (quite a natural defense mechanism), but the nigh hyperbolic pessimism and aura of negativity, while hardly unique, really makes me shake my head in shame.

I find the blind optimism equally, if not more, nauseating.

I've yet to see a truly disgusting example thereof on these forums. Just a lot of wishful thinking, which is perfectly natural and not deserving at all of the dismissivness and meanness directed at it.

I don't know how you've missed it. They're far more outspoken. You don't see the people who try not to have high expectations constantly commenting on or making threads dedicated to subjects like "Why are [insert group of fans here] so [insert term here]?" Several members are frequently downright hostile with their optimism. They belittle people for their reservations. I would name names if I was confident that it wouldn't start shit. But I know it would.

[The_Olden_Thing]

I don't know how you've missed it. They're far more outspoken. You don't see the people who try not to have high expectations constantly commenting on or making threads dedicated to subjects like "Why are [insert group of fans here] so optimistic?" Several members are frequently downright hostile with their optimism. They belittle people for their reservations. I would name names if I was confident that it wouldn't start shit. But I know it would.

I've seen the exact opposite happening for the better part of the two years I have consistently lurked here. Only recently have I seen any militancy, and only as a defensive response toward the inappropriate hostility toward those who like to speculate and be wishful thinkers. Which I believe has been justified, given what I have seen over the long term.

Wishful thinking and speculation are harmless, and not deserving of the ridicule and hostile attitudes directed toward them. Its fun for these people, its fun to be excited by the thrill of the mystery, and let the imagination roam. As long as it doesn't replace reality, it is fine, and barring a couple extreme examples, that hasn't occurred here.

Dismissing that is harmful. Expressing a venomous attitude and being a proverbial "wet blanket" is not a good thing. Being reserved and neutral, as demonstrated by Jomei and Chris55, is the right way. Derisively throwing about snide remarks is not.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

When did I say anything about wishful thinking? I would agree that many people are attacked for speculating or mentioning something they would like to see. However, I was talking about a particular group which demonstrates something else entirely. Blind, and often hostile, optimism expressed by those few to belittle people with reservations or who mention something that they're worried about is every bit as venomous and repulsive as the people who belittle members for being excited. The former is also every bit as numerous as the few assholes we have here who jump on other member's backs for having fun.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

*sips coffee as spectacle unfolds*

How bout this.

Both side of the "glass full or empty spectrum" have assholes.


How's that?

*goes back to coffee*

That's what I was saying to begin with...

[The_Olden_Thing]

When did I say anything about wishful thinking?

You didn't. However, a lot of the supposed "blind optimism" that is attacked is simple wishful thinking. Apologies for not clarifying.

However, I was talking about a particular group which demonstrates something else entirely. Blind, and often hostile, optimism expressed by those few to belittle people with reservations or who mention something that they're worried about is every bit as venomous and repulsive as the people who belittle members for being excited. The former is also every bit as numerous as the few assholes we have here who jump on other member's backs for having fun.

See, I don't see that. I see a few individuals belittling and posting in a rather haughty manner against others, and in response a few have become militant. But its a defensiveness, not an offensive, belligerent manner. Its a response, and I consider them justified in that response. And when not responding, I don't see them quashing more balanced, realistic opinions that aren't directed at any group in particular. I find the backlash against the more positive individuals to be, well, misguided at best, reprehensible at worst.

If people weren't being attacked for their wishful thinking and speculation in the first place, or more politely disagreed with, versus the more curmudgeonly attitudes demonstrated, this really wouldn't be a problem. But at least part of solving a problem is dialouging about it and acknowledging that it exists.

[HeiseiGodzilla117]

^Per your first point, no apology is necessary. I should have realized what you meant.

However, I'll still have to insist contrary to what you suggest. I've seen several level-headed members attacked for posting something 'negative' who did not take any jabs at members being 'positive.' But I'll leave it at that. You might see some more of what I'm talking about soon. I might not be wording my points well enough. So that's on me.

I also hope our discussion has not led you to believe that I am one of the assholes we've been talking about. As I've said to other members, I understand online discussion might not reflect the intended tone of voice.

[The_Olden_Thing]

However, I'll still have to insist contrary to what you suggest. I've seen several level-headed members attacked for posting something 'negative' who did not take any jabs at members being 'positive.' But I'll leave it at that. You might see some more of what I'm talking about soon. I might not be wording my points well enough. So that's on me.

I highly doubt that. I've been a consistent lurker at these forums every day for the better part of two years. I've seen and read just about everything here. But I'll leave it at that.

I also hope our discussion has not led you to believe that I am one of the assholes we've been talking about. As I've said to other members, I understand online discussion might not reflect the intended tone of voice.

You've gone to great lengths to articulate yourself, so no, I don't consider you an "asshole" for your views here. In fact, I have found a few of your opinions to a refreshing breath of intelligence on occasion (i.e., the relevance of nuclear issues). I am simply expressing my exasperation at what I consider tantamount to bullying, enough to break my long streak of lurking, with the hope that doing so may cause some change.

[RedZillaKing]

So let me ask you Legion... in a completely non combative way.... what keeps you coming back? I mean it's absolutely clear that you're opposed to the idea of this film. So what's the point of a long debate? I honestly can't see a single thing wrong with overly optimistic people. So what if they're gonna be disappointed? Who honestly cares? No one will change their outlook, and aggravation is all that can be caused. There's the section for the past films, there's the toy section.... etcetera.

What's the point? Distance yourself from it and save pointless aggravation.

[gatorzilla]

Okay I am going to break this down-

The people who are wary of this upcoming film (and even those who just outright don't care if it even gets made) are for the most part backing up how they feel by speaking from experience. A lot of people I know who aren't thrilled about any of this remember the '80s, when it seemed like we heard about a new Godzilla project that never got made every year. They also remember that entire stretch between 1992 and 1998 when the Sony Godzilla was on again and off again, getting new stories, new scripts and new directors until what we finally got a steaming hunk of crap. These people are aware that even Toho doesn't know how to handle Godzilla. They're not sure if Americans handling Godzilla is a good idea in the first place, and they're well enough aware of Godzilla's mainstream popularity vs what the general audience prefers vs what fans expect. It's not a pretty picture.

-You make the claim that people who are wary or in your words "don't care if it gets made" are speaking from past experience. I do completely understand being wary on the project because of past experiences I get that I really do.

-Now why anyone couldn't care if it gets made is beyond understanding. The success of this movie could be so beneficial to every fan. It could allow for more merchandise to be sold by small business collectors there by increasing their business sales. It will introduce more people to the franchise and could turn them towards things like G-fan and G-fest there by bringing in more money to help support these events and allowing them to continue and expand for future generations. This also allows potential for G-fest to actually get out there and become well known. This would also show other American studios that Godzilla IS worth investing in. By simply saying "i dont care if this movie gets made" or "I hope it fails" when this movie could have a potential huge positive impact for everyone is beyond reasoning. Look at the bad impact GFW had. How many of these online collectors shops and websites closed after it? This film has the potential to restore all of it BUT I'm fully aware it can have the reverse effect too.

-Now to the last part of your paragraph. You say the fans claim to know that Toho doesn't know how to handle Godzilla anymore BUT that they don't think America handling him is a good idea. Why? Why not have America do a series? You have to look at the bigger picture and how powerful America's film industry is internationally not just domestically. This could prove a massive boost to the franchise finacially and critically and have a positive impact on the fanbase.
Now I don't undersant this part...

they're well enough aware of Godzilla's mainstream popularity vs what the general audience prefers vs what fans expect.

The general expectation of a Godzilla film is this
1.) Godzilla looks like himself
2.) Godzilla cant be killed
3.) Godzilla destroys cities and the military
4.) Godzilla fights other monsters
5.) Godzilla is the product of man's mistakes and nuclear weapons
That is what both the general audience and fanbase expect from a Godzilla film. Outside of that everything else is up to people's opinions. Just add a great story and characters to the 5 things above and it will be a great film. Simple as that.
As for Godzilla's popularity. He may not be the "IT" thing right now or super popular but he is popular and well known still or else Legendary wouldnt be investing all this time and money to make an excellent film.

The blind optimists, as I've said earlier, are far too deep inside this fan bubble where Godzilla is far too awesome to be anything other than next's year's biggest blockbuster.

So in your opinion anyone who is positive or very excited about this film is a blind optimist whos in a fan bubble? You seem to have the opinion that anyone who is positive on the film is an ignorant fan but people who are down on the film are logical?
Who says Godzilla can't be one of the biggest blockbusters that year? What are basing this on?

There's this delusion to some of these fans that the mainstream audience has this awareness of the franchise that's just not there, that Godzilla merchandise sell better than it actually does, that Godzilla as a character is somehow comparable to big American franchises, that what the fans want is somehow going to override what needs to be done to appease the mainstream and we'll get something that does the monster justice.

What are you basing the claim that Godzilla merchandise does not sell well? The SH MonsterArts seem to be disputing that claim right now.
Godzilla has lasted 60 years now with the longest running film franchise in history. It may not be on the level with Star Wars, Marvel, Star Trek or DC but it is comparable to some big franchises here.

There are so many "huh?" moments out of the blindly optimistic fans. When I read some of the things they say (the movie is not going to crack a $billion, or even come close, sorry) I think to myself that no matter what happens, there's going to be a lot of seriously disappointed fans in 2014.

The billion dollar is just wishful thinking on a lot of our parts. All of us are just hoping for a good movie that is critically and finacially successful.
What is the theres going to be a lot of seriously disappointed fans in 2014 comment mean? What would we be disappointed about?

Keep in mind I am not attacking you have your opinion like I have mine but I do have questions to some of your claims and I'm also trying to explain why being positive is not a bad thing at all.

[The_Olden_Thing]

Why, to me, the blind optimism is worse than the cautious pessimism,

Not when a few of the so-characterized "cautious" people are practical bullies about it. A balanced, realistic perspective is one thing, but there is too much in the way of a spiteful, hateful negativity that needs to be put out, like a foul-smelling pit of filth.

There should always be hope, no matter what. Giving that up and persecuting it is the worst thing one can do to another.

The people who are wary of this upcoming film (and even those who just outright don't care if it even gets made) are for the most part backing up how they feel by speaking from experience. A lot of people I know who aren't thrilled about any of this remember the '80s, when it seemed like we heard about a new Godzilla project that never got made every year. They also remember that entire stretch between 1992 and 1998 when the Sony Godzilla was on again and off again, getting new stories, new scripts and new directors until what we finally got a steaming hunk of crap. These people are aware that even Toho doesn't know how to handle Godzilla. They're not sure if Americans handling Godzilla is a good idea in the first place, and they're well enough aware of Godzilla's mainstream popularity vs what the general audience prefers vs what fans expect. It's not a pretty picture.

You really shouldn't let that knowledge quash hope. The things that make people fearful of this project happen to every single movie ever. The system of making movies, no matter what budget or what country, are full of hoops to jump through, problems and issues. It is hardly a problem unique to the Godzilla franchise, and to act as if this franchise is some special case of awfulness belies a blind ignorance of the reality, an ignorant that blocks the ability to hope, and turns a person foul and disgusting, a modern day Scrooge.

The blind optimists, as I've said earlier, are far too deep inside this fan bubble where Godzilla is far too awesome to be anything other than next's year's biggest blockbuster. There's this delusion to some of these fans that the mainstream audience has this awareness of the franchise that's just not there, that Godzilla merchandise sell better than it actually does, that Godzilla as a character is somehow comparable to big American franchises, that what the fans want is somehow going to override what needs to be done to appease the mainstream and we'll get something that does the monster justice. There are so many "huh?" moments out of the blindly optimistic fans. When I read some of the things they say (the movie is not going to crack a $billion, or even come close, sorry) I think to myself that no matter what happens, there's going to be a lot of seriously disappointed fans in 2014.

Then let the wishful thinkers alone, leave the immature to grow up and let reality teach them, and the truly stupid to stay that way, because that last one will never change. Bringing in something more than mere caution, but a poisonous dismissivness clouded in an obviously dated disconnect, is not a good thing. Some have been able to express a more balanced perspective. Those who are belligerent toward the wishful thinkers and speculators are tantamount to bullies, to that spiteful teen who tells a bunch of kids that Santa isn't real, instead of letting the parents or maturity teach it to them naturally.

[Gojira1963]

I want to put my $.02 in as a "blind optimist." That is a pajorative term I would not use to describe myself. If someone can be cautiously pessimistic then someone can equally be cautiously optimistic?

I am cautiously optimistic because I know what I like. I do like eye candy as in great special effects so I am pretty certain this movie will have great special effects. I am one who likes a lot of Godzilla movies, including GINO and Final Wars so a movie has to go a long way to disappoint me.

There are things I dislike in every movie that I end up liking as well as liking things in movies I end up not liking. With liking movies it is never an all-or-nothing circumstance for me.