Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

[GodzillaDude]

I find myself enjoying most (key word here) Heisei characters more then the Showa characters.

Suit yourself. I put the human characters in the first film, KKvsG through Son of Godzilla and even a few '70s films far, far, FAR above just about any character in any Heisei film. I seriously don't understand this appeal that the '90s human characters have for some fans. It seriously doesn't make sense to me.

Well I'm not gonna argue your opinion. We all have them. We all have different tastes and that is what I think it obviously comes down to.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

There were fifteen Godzilla films made in the Showa era, compared to the two made in the 80's, five in the 90's, and six in the 2000's (though technically G2K is a "90's" film). With 15 films under their belt made within only a 16 time span, not all of the Showa films were going to blow your mind with their characters, especially after things got super outlandish in the 70's.

When you have that many films in a series, some of the later ones are bound to suffer in quality. Most (key word here) of the Showa films still have the best characters in the entire series. Most of the characters seen in the 90's were extremely forgettable, outside of Colonial Shindo (who was played by a Showa veteran, mind you).

I find myself enjoying most (key word here) Heisei characters more then the Showa characters. But to be honest none of the Godzilla films exactly "blow our minds" with their human characters just some were/are better than others.

Then I would suggest you rewatch Mothra vs. Godzilla, Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep, Son Of Godzilla and Terror Of MechaGodzilla and focus specifically on the characters and how they're written.

Honestly, all four of those films show just how well human characters can be written for monster films. Compared to the Heisei characters, the Showa characters are written better in just about every conceivable way. Hell, even at the worst of the Showa era, I would still gladly take their characters over the bland, dull and one-dimensional characters of Heisei era. Give me Rex Dart: Eskimo Spy over Miki Sageusa any day.

[GodzillaDude]

There were fifteen Godzilla films made in the Showa era, compared to the two made in the 80's, five in the 90's, and six in the 2000's (though technically G2K is a "90's" film). With 15 films under their belt made within only a 16 time span, not all of the Showa films were going to blow your mind with their characters, especially after things got super outlandish in the 70's.

When you have that many films in a series, some of the later ones are bound to suffer in quality. Most (key word here) of the Showa films still have the best characters in the entire series. Most of the characters seen in the 90's were extremely forgettable, outside of Colonial Shindo (who was played by a Showa veteran, mind you).

I find myself enjoying most (key word here) Heisei characters more then the Showa characters. But to be honest none of the Godzilla films exactly "blow our minds" with their human characters just some were/are better than others.

Then I would suggest you rewatch Mothra vs. Godzilla, Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep, Son Of Godzilla and Terror Of MechaGodzilla and focus specifically on the characters and how they're written.

Honestly, all four of those films show just how well human characters can be written for monster films. Compared to the Heisei characters, the Showa characters are written better in just about every conceivable way. Hell, even at the worst of the Showa era, I would still gladly take their characters over the bland, dull and one-dimensional characters of Heisei era. Give me Rex Dart: Eskimo Spy over Miki Sageusa any day.

I would disagree with you here. Although some of the films you mentioned do have some decent characters. Still I think it really comes down to personal taste or maybe even your particular mood.

[Killswitch]

IMO, the human characters are better in the Showa series. That includes the lower budget films of the 70's.

[Tim85]

Captain Gordan was my Dad's favorite character in the movie. I still hear him laugh whenever he says certain lines.

I really enjoyed the Xilian Controller, I don't know why. He's the little kid who gets the keys to the car(taking control of the invasion) and crashes it horribly (Godzilla). This is why I use him as my main villian in my stories. He's arragance gets the better of him and he pays the price.

[shinmattiathekaiju]

IMO, the human characters are better in the Showa series.

Meh, i kind off agree.

[GodzillaDude]

IMO, the human characters are better in the Showa series. That includes the lower budget films of the 70's.

If you prefer somewhat cheesy somewhat overacted characters then yes they are better. But I think what it really comes down to is personal taste. For the most part the Showa characters are campy, kid friendly characters and have a kid friendly attitude/personality while most of the Heisei and Millennium characters are serious.

Key phrase: most of

[GotengoXGodzilla]

IMO, the human characters are better in the Showa series. That includes the lower budget films of the 70's.

If you prefer somewhat cheesy somewhat overacted characters then yes they are better. But I think what it really comes down to is personal taste. For the most part the Showa characters are campy, kid friendly characters and have a kid friendly attitude/personality while most of the Heisei and Millennium characters are serious.

Key phrase: most of

There's nothing "cheesy" or "campy" about the characters in the Showa series. Hell, most of them aren't even kid friendly. Just look at Godzilla vs. Hedorah or Invasion Of The Astro-Monster. Almost all of the characters in those films are taken very seriously, with little to no joking around.

What you're saying now really isn't making much sense anymore.

[GodzillaDude]

IMO, the human characters are better in the Showa series. That includes the lower budget films of the 70's.

If you prefer somewhat cheesy somewhat overacted characters then yes they are better. But I think what it really comes down to is personal taste. For the most part the Showa characters are campy, kid friendly characters and have a kid friendly attitude/personality while most of the Heisei and Millennium characters are serious.

Key phrase: most of

There's nothing "cheesy" or "campy" about the characters in the Showa series. Hell, most of them aren't even kid friendly. Just look at Godzilla vs. Hedorah or Invasion Of The Astro-Monster. Almost all of the characters in those films are taken very seriously, with little to no joking around.

What you're saying now really isn't making much sense anymore.

Most of the Showa series at least from Son of Godzill and on were/are meant to be campy and kid friendly for the most part.

What I say makes sense it is just another POV.

[TokyoVigilante]

It's a baseless generalization and it's based on this dumb misconception that the Heisei films weren't the same general audience "kid friendly" pablum as the seventies films.

Unless you can explain how the nineties films were heavy dramas for a more sophisticated audience, otherwise everything your saying doesn't make sense.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

There's nothing "cheesy" or "campy" about the characters in the Showa series. Hell, most of them aren't even kid friendly. Just look at Godzilla vs. Hedorah or Invasion Of The Astro-Monster. Almost all of the characters in those films are taken very seriously, with little to no joking around.

What you're saying now really isn't making much sense anymore.

Most of the Showa series at least from Son of Godzill and on were/are meant to be campy and kid friendly for the most part.

What I say makes sense it is just another POV.

I don't see any Godzilla film, especially Son Of Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Hedorah, Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla and Terror Of MechaGodzilla as "campy" or "kid friendly". Hell, no Godzilla film as a whole is "campy" or "cheesy". There are a few moments that are like that, like Godzilla flying or Godzilla dancing, but not the entire film. Also, first you were talking about the characters and the acting being "cheesy" and "campy", but now you're talking about the entire films. You need to stay consistent.

Like TV said, the Heisei series is just as kid friendly as the Showa series.

[GodzillaDude]

I never said that the Heisei films were/are only viewed by a more sophisticated audience what I meant was it generally took itself more consistently seriously than Showa.

[TokyoVigilante]

I never said that the Heisei films were/are only viewed by a more sophisticated audience what I meant was it took itself more consistently seriously than Showa.

Except they don't? They're the same grade of adventure story archetypes that the Showa films have. Explorers, reporters, military types, scientists, etc. Aside from "Godzilla 1985" and "Godzilla vs. Destroyah", there is no straight serious Godzilla film from the Heisei era.

[GodzillaDude]

I never said that the Heisei films were/are only viewed by a more sophisticated audience what I meant was it took itself more consistently seriously than Showa.

Except they don't? They're the same grade of adventure story archetypes that the Showa films have. Explorers, reporters, military types, scientists, etc. Aside from "Godzilla 1985" and "Godzilla vs. Destroyah", there is no straight serious Godzilla film from the Heisei era.

I admit that the Heisei films still had that same kind of stuff in it but even the monster fights didn't have something like Godzilla flying or dancing.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

I never said that the Heisei films were/are only viewed by a more sophisticated audience what I meant was it took itself more consistently seriously than Showa.

You've yet to present evidence that proves this point.

And I would make the point that almost the entire Showa series takes itself very seriously. Films like Mothra vs. Godzilla, Son Of Godzilla, Ghidorah, The Three-Headed Monster, Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep, not to mention Godzilla, all talk about issues that concerned the filmmakers at the time of the film's release. The rise of corporate power, the growing size of world hunger, the threat of China, rebellion from the youth, and the fear of nuclear warfare are all themes that are present in these films, and reflect what was happening in the real world. The filmmakers took their work seriously enough to add in themes from the real world to these films.

If people like Ishiro Honda and Jun Fukuda didn't take their work more seriously than the filmmakers of the Heisei era, then we probably wouldn't be talking about the Godzilla films right now.

I admit that the Heisei films still had that same kind of stuff in it but even the monster fights didn't have something like Godzilla flying or dancing.

So suddenly, because the Showa series has one or two moments of being funny, moments which only last a few seconds mind you, that means that the entire Heisei series is more serious than the Showa series?

That doesn't make any sense.

[GodzillaDude]

They were strange enough moments and more strange than anything Godzilla did in the Heisei series. The main point is the Heisei series never at any point did anything as over the top or funny/kid friendly as having Godzilla dance and fly.

[TokyoVigilante]

They were strange enough moments and more strange than anything Godzilla did in the Heisei series. The main point is the Heisei series never at any point did anything as over the top or funny/kid friendly as having Godzilla dance and fly.

You're using two instances that last only seconds to generalize 15 entire films. It doesn't matter that the Heisei films never went as extreme in those two instances, that doesn't excuse them as being the exact same tone and use the same grade of character archetypes as the Showa films.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

They were strange enough moments and more strange than anything Godzilla did in the Heisei series. The main point is the Heisei series never at any point did anything as over the top or funny/kid friendly as having Godzilla dance and fly.

...Moments like that in the Showa series are few and far between. They don't dwell on them. They just happen, the audience has a good laugh, and then it moves on. That doesn't mean that the Showa series is less "serious" (or "strange" now, since you've changed your wording) than the Heisei series. As I said, the Showa series managed to work in fears and problems from the real world into their films, which means that they take what they have to say seriously. Little to none of the Heisei films do that.

[GodzillaDude]

Both of you guys have good points and I seem to have lost this debate but I guess I just find myself taking the notable films of the Heisei series more seriously than the notable films of the Showa series (except Gojira is more serious than any of them). Just in case any of you wondered this...I really do like the Showa series.

Back on topic...I actually really liked Final Wars I thought it was very entertaining with both it's humans and monsters. I even enjoyed the human talking scenes and fights even though they were obviously based on Matrix stuff. Personally I liked the score too and thought Godzilla's suit was good.

[Killswitch]

I find the human characters in the Heisei series to be forgettable. Boring and generic.