Final Wars: Why all the Hate?

[Dust_pan]

To the haters: We are allowed to enjoy the movie all we want. You are free to hate it, but it would be nice if you got off your high horse and stopped acting like we're all immature or lesser than you because we express honest positive opinions about a mediocre film.

Fixed.

When did I ever say anything mean or demeaning to you about your honest positive opinions about the film?

I respect positive opinions about the film. What I don't respect is your tendency to be very pushy about how everyone should follow your example of not hating on the film.

[Captain Aktion]

^*nods*

Agreement here, CD.

[goji89]

Well are we not all entitled to our opinions on this film. Why does it have to be "It sucks" and "No it doesn't" crap. It tried too hard to be what it wasn't, a mediocre goji film with just too much human on mutant on alien orgy rather than kaiju banging their brains out. I hated it but not enough to put down anyone for it, just rip on them a little but not insult a person.

[Gojira1963]

You were using "art" for argument earlier, let me try this: Say you're given two different paintings. One by Normal Rockwell (Take your pick of which), and a drawing of a dinosaur by a five year-old. Which is better?

What you're asking me to do is to make a vlaue judgment on the two works of art. I no longer do that. It is possible toenjoy each within their context and not make a value judgment.

The mind likes to thinking in simplistic dichotomous thinking and things are either good or bad. That is an example of all-or-nothing thinking which in cognitive therapy we call congitive distortions. It happens when our thinking is totally one side or another (black or white) and there is no shades of gray.

It seems that people are getting angry because I will not engage in those cognitive distortions!

In your analogy between a Rockwell painting and a drawing by a five year old you want me to make value judgements based on assumptoions. You're assumming that the five-year-old is the inferior artist, I have seen some child prodigies...or the five-year-old could be close to me personally so their drawing may have more value because of that factor.

But you see what my point is? We have a choice in our thinking and we do not have to make black-or-white value judgments all of the time. Sure, there are times when that is appropriate and wisdom comes in knowing when to make those types of judgments but I do not think the enjoyment of art is one of those times.


Cimmerian Dragon Philosophers have been debated the objectivity vs subjectivity of art for centuries. There are those that follow the school of thought that deals with metaphysical idealism and there are 4 types. metaphysical objectivity, epistemological objectivity and metaphysical subjectivity, epistemological subjectivity. Each can find art that is either subjective or objective based on reference points and social-constructs and context. Just because I agree with a metaphysical subjectivity, epistemological subjectivity point of view does not mean I am being anti-intellectualism or snobbish.

If anyone can support the metaphysical and epistemological objectivity point of view I am open to the information.

I will also say, again, just because I do feel art is subjective it doesn't close the door to discussing the quality of any art.

I am not dismissing criticism what i do dismiss is when people act as if their opinion on FW is an authoritative one and should be treated as they are spaking for everyone instead of just for themselves. It is difficult to adress a universalized opinion. Or as Immanuel Kant would say, people's opinions are deliverd as universal maxims and that their opinions are to be treated as objective principle of actions that are to become a universal law.

[Gojira1963]

You dont have to reply to every person who says GFW is shit with "well, some people like it."

Just saying. Things would go so much more smoothly.

Do you think that is all I say?

[Legionmaster]

I saw somewhere back there that peeps were disagreeing whether or not GFW qualified as art. This would be a good time to bring Vivian Sobchack back into TK discussion. The filmic medium, as an experience, is fundamentally understood as constructing meaning. Even disregarding words or specific images, the very haptic nature of watching a film thrusts the viewer into a visceral conversation of meaning between the auteur(s), the work, other viewers, and themselves. To even ask the question, "Is this art?" is to cede that there is the possibility that it is. To cede this possibility is to already begin to construct meaning. Thus, the act of asking the question is its own answer. Film, by any standard, is, by its many-tiered relational nature with man, fundamentally art.

And that, folks, is a very basic explanation of the phenomenology of film spectatorship.

[Gojira1963]

One of the ways we evaluate art is through our emotional and intellectual reactions. That is the function of art - to elicit an emotional response. In our subjective evaluation of whether or not the artist was successful in relating their intent (whatever that may be) when they created the response are there aspects of that creation that can be meassured objectively? I think there can be. We do have an innate understanding of quality at some level but it becomes difficult to quanitify.

For example, we may say Beethoven 9th symphony is of a better quality than Three Six Mafia's song Ass and Titties, but is Beethoven 9th symphony of a better quality than Piano Concerto No. 9, Jenamy, by Mozart? That is when things get difficult to quantify.

Except for Gojira the majority of Godzilla movies have not always done well with the critics. So how can you quantify quality within a genre that many feel is crappy to begin with?

For the majority of G-Fans, Final Wars elicits a negative emotional response. Why is that? It did not meet the expectations of the fan base. Why is that? Godzilla himself does not have a lot of screen time and the monster battles, which are the bread and butter of these movies, are too short and done in a style that does not take them seriously. The human story is too long and derivative of other sources. The acting for some of the actors is stiff and wooden and the dialoge is often cheesy.

However, in the context of Godzilla movies, this movie can still be enjoyed when viewed from a different perspective. First of all I think if fans are open to accepting and enjoying this movie they need to let go of the anger and disappointment they felt at not getting the 50th anniversary movie they wanted. You don't have to. You can choose to hang onto it if you'd like.

There are elements of all the Godzilla movies tossed into this film. Alien invasions, Godzilla fighting other monsters and people trying to overcome adversity, prejudice and other obstacles. There are some Godzilla movies that are quite cheesy overall or have cheesy moments in them. Godzilla's Revenge, Son of Godzilla, Hedorah, Gigan, Megalon, Space Godzilla just to name a few. My personal opinion is that from a quality perspective I think Final Wars is on the same level as these others movies. In other words you can find many of the same elements. I can enjoy a cheesy movie as well as a movie that is of better quality.

[Gojira1963]

GFW has a bunch of typical Godzilla plot elements, true, but does it perform well with those elements? That's the key issue.

I honestly think it is hit or miss. Take the Kaiju battles. I think some are well done while others are not so good. I like how Rodan shows up in NY. The stereotypical cop and pimp scene aside I like the special effects when Rodan shows up. I like the destruction he causes and he looks pretty good.

I like when the mutants fight Ebirah. You get a good sense of his scale and he is destructive and I like how the mutants defeat him.

When we first see Gigan as a mummy those effects shots are done well in my opinion. He looks ominous and you get a good sense of scale with those scenes. That is not often common in Godzilla movies.

kaiser ghidorah looks like crap and is embarassingly done in a bad way.

[Gojira1963]

Well what about the plot itself? I find it a barely stitched together mess with characters that are hardly endearing to the audience. We know so little about them, why should we give a crap about whether they live or die? And then the acting is either really boring, or so over the top it's hilarious.

I like the premise, the story and the plot although the execution of it is a bit sloppy and hit or miss. I like Don Frye's character even though he is wooden at times. I do admire people who can stand up to authority figures when it is the right thing to do. Some Japanese movies have been accused of being anti-American (even parts of this film) so even though Gordon was a stereotype he was portrayed positiviely overall.

Yeah, the main alien villain is over the top and for me that is what makes it enjoyable. I can relate to Ozaki's story arch and what he has to learn in the movie. So in that scense I did care about those characters and what happened to them.

[Eunectes]

Well I pretty much loved GFW because it made most of the Showa designs better and more believable.

[Gojira1963]

Well I pretty much loved GFW because it made most of the Showa designs better and more believable.

I never cared for Gigan in the Showa series and I like his design, power and speed in this movie.

[LiquidG]

Well I pretty much loved GFW because it made most of the Showa designs better and more believable.

I never cared for Gigan in the Showa series and I like his design, power and speed in this movie.

Excuse me what ? I might understand speed but POWER??? Oh yeah him getting his head blown off in mere seconds of fighting Godzilla and then getting it cut off by his OWN BLADES sure shows off how much power he has doesn't it, you want power go watch Vs Gigan, he beat Godzilla to a bloody mess in that movie

[Gojira1963]

Excuse me what ? I might understand speed but POWER??? Oh yeah him getting his head blown off in mere seconds of fighting Godzilla and then getting it cut off by his OWN BLADES sure shows off how much power he has doesn't it, you want power go watch Vs Gigan, he beat Godzilla to a bloody mess in that movie

Well, you're right. He has the apperance of being powerful in the movie, or threatening, but doesn't actually do anything with that power.

I still like this design of him over the Showa design. He just looks fat and dumpy in the Showa movies.

[Captain Aktion]

And Showa Gigan ran like a girl as soon as things didn't go his way.

[Goji]

For me, the plot isn't the issue. We've had similar plots in Godzilla films before, and for how "out there" some of them can be/have been, it's not really a valid complaint. it's the style that Kitamura was going for that ultimately rubs me the wrong way. Whether or not that's the issue most fans have with it, I'm not sure, but that seems to be the case for some people in this discussion.

I've seen a lot of complaints about the SPX over the years, but that's really the least of the film's problem. A lot of them are actually pretty solid, (the traditional/analog effects involving the monsters, at least), but (IMOHO) they're hampered by the other problems I have with this movie.

This desire that Kitamura had to make the movie as 'hip' as possibly is ultimately what kills it for me. The action scenes between the mutants are some of the most mind numbing action sequences in any Toho film. They're just so devoid of anything..special. Not to mention they take up far too much of the movie, and a lot of it (like the bike chase, for example) stick out like a sore thumb, and make you ask yourself "What the fuck am I even watching?". I actually have very few complaints about the scenes with the monsters, and except for a couple of things (like the absolutely awful effect of Rodan spiraling into the mountain side) the suits, and the staging of the action is fine. Godzilla's 'goalie' moment is funny to me in the same way that the Shie jig on Planet X, and Godzilla's tail slide are. It's a wink to the more anthropomorphic Godzilla of the '70s, and what's why it doesn't, and hasn't ever bothered me.

The issue isn't 'The human element takes up too much of the film', it's that that human (mutant?) element isn't engaging enough for most people to take interest in it, regardless of it being a "turn your brain off and just roll with it" kind of movie (which isn't any kind of proper defense, by the way). Yes, of course there's Takarada, Mizuno, and Sarada..but frankly, they really don't have a lot of screen time, and the characters that take up the most of it are either hilarious because of how awful they are (Don Frye), or just plain uninteresting in their performances (most of the Japanese leads save for the mutant leader).

So, yeah, elements of FINAL WARS work, but as a whole, it's simply not for me. The (mostly) grating music, ugly color filters, severe lack of scenes involving our star, and this forced 'cool' approach to basically everything is just too much for me, and ruin what could have otherwise been a pretty stellar Godzilla movie. Had it been directed by someone who was focused on making a respectable tribute, and not focused on trying to get Hollywood's attention, it could have been something truly special.

[LiquidG]

And Showa Gigan ran like a girl as soon as things didn't go his way.

To me that only makes GFW Gigan look even more pathetic, even with Showa Gigan being a coward he still manages to outdo GFW Gigan in both his fighting abilities and his Badassness

[Captain Aktion]

I hate when people say stuff like, "Kitamura wanted it to be..."

Toho wanted GFW to be hip. Toho wanted there to be kung-fu fights. Toho wanted there to be a UFC dude in the film. Toho wanted Godzilla to be overpowered. Toho wanted this film.

Kitamura didn't script it, didn't produce it, and wasn't the one who made the major decisions. Toho did all of that.


EDIT: And Kitamura wasn't trying to get Hollywood's attention any more than ANY director is trying to gain a little recognition. Fact is, if anything, it was Toho trying to get Hollywood's attention, or, at the very least, Toho was trying desperately to get ANY attention.

[Gojira1963]

For me, the plot isn't the issue. We've had similar plots in Godzilla films before, and for how "out there" some of them can be/have been, it's not really a valid complaint. it's the style that Kitamura was going for that ultimately rubs me the wrong way. Whether or not that's the issue most fans have with it, I'm not sure, but that seems to be the case for some people in this discussion.

I've seen a lot of complaints about the SPX over the years, but that's really the least of the film's problem. A lot of them are actually pretty solid, (the traditional/analog effects involving the monsters, at least), but (IMOHO) they're hampered by the other problems I have with this movie.

This desire that Kitamura had to make the movie as 'hip' as possibly is ultimately what kills it for me. The action scenes between the mutants are some of the most mind numbing action sequences in any Toho film. They're just so devoid of anything..special. Not to mention they take up far too much of the movie, and a lot of it (like the bike chase, for example) stick out like a sore thumb, and make you ask yourself "What the skreeonk am I even watching?". I actually have very few complaints about the scenes with the monsters, and except for a couple of things (like the absolutely awful effect of Rodan spiraling into the mountain side) the suits, and the staging of the action is fine. Godzilla's 'goalie' moment is funny to me in the same way that the Shie jig on Planet X, and Godzilla's tail slide are. It's a wink to the more anthropomorphic Godzilla of the '70s, and what's why it doesn't, and hasn't ever bothered me.

The issue isn't 'The human element takes up too much of the film', it's that that human (mutant?) element isn't engaging enough for most people to take interest in it, regardless of it being a "turn your brain off and just roll with it" kind of movie (which isn't any kind of proper defense, by the way). Yes, of course there's Takarada, Mizuno, and Sarada..but frankly, they really don't have a lot of screen time, and the characters that take up the most of it are either hilarious because of how awful they are (Don Frye), or just plain uninteresting in their performances (most of the Japanese leads save for the mutant leader).

So, yeah, elements of FINAL WARS work, but as a whole, it's simply not for me. The (mostly) grating music, ugly color filters, severe lack of scenes involving our star, and this forced 'cool' approach to basically everything is just too much for me, and ruin what could have otherwise been a pretty stellar Godzilla movie. Had it been directed by someone who was focused on making a respectable tribute, and not focused on trying to get Hollywood's attention, it could have been something truly special.

The style of the movie and attempts to be hip did turn me off at first. After seeing some other examples of movies in a similar style I understood more what the director was aiming for so in that context it bothered me less.

For myself the style then became part of its charm. The style does remind me of less serious showa Godzilla movies such as Hedorah, Gigan and Megalon movies. FW takes those styles and turns the volume up a notch or two.

When you say that the a a "turn your brain off and just roll with it" is not a proper defense, what do you mean by that? A defense of what, whether or not the movie is good or bad or a defense in how people can enjoy the movie?

[Goji]

@Aktion-And that's supposed to change one's opinion of the movie, how, exactly? Toho. Kitamura. Whatever. The final product was not satisfactory for a lot of people, and whomever was ultimately responsible for the way it turned out is really a moot point. It's just grasping as straws. A common problem with this topic.


King Ghidorah and Gigan "ran like girls" in many of their appearances, and yet they're still incredibly popular. Funny how that works.

[Captain Aktion]

^It's not about changing one's opinions, it's about laying blame where it deserves to go. Kitamura did exactly what Toho hired him to do.
The point is, it wouldn't have mattered who directed the film, it still would've probably ended up incredibly similar to the final product. A common problem with this thread absolutely IS people misinterpreting or putting the wrong value on simple discussion. Discussion is not "straw-grasping".