Talkback: Godzilla 2000 Millennium (1999)

[Godzilla The King]

No, no. No need for that prologue, I think a franchise being born from this film wouldn't need a prologue. Part of what made this film so great was that it didn't bother with giving us a backstory, it gave us all we needed, Godzilla has been around for a while and he's a threat. This film leaves a lot open and that's what I love about it, there could be stuff beforehand and after and they leave that to the audience to decide.

[edgaguirus]

The lack of prologue was a help for the film. Instead of explaining Godzilla and why he's attacking, it inserts you right into the story.

[Mechagigan]

I love that G2K assumes you know Godzilla... frankly, more movies should've. We don't need a huge backstory for the monster, we want to see what he does to warrant a story.

[Gojira18]

This was actually the VERY first Godzilla movie I EVER watched when I was 3. I was BLOWN AWAY (As any little kid would be), and while not on my top 10 favorites, it's definitely an "honorable mention".

[Vatarian]

^ It was my first Godzilla movie as well, and, having seen every other Godzilla film, it's still one of my top three favorites, and my favorite overall on some days.

[Rodan]

This was among the earliest I saw too, though I had a couple of Showa VHS tapes as a kid.

It's still a top five for me, and the best modern execution of the franchise's most enjoyable tropes outside maybe vs. King Ghidorah. (And it's a tighter film than that one, though Ghidorah actually has points to make.)

[Goji]

I wish I could like this movie as much as everyone else seems to, but it just always falls flat for me..The Sony version is fun, and definitely improves a lot, but it's not enough to save it for me. My opinion on it has improved a bit since that initial theatrical viewing 16 years ago, but it's honestly kind of low on my list of favorites. For what it's worth, I really like the characters, and I do think it's definitely one of the better ones from this era.

[Mechagigan]

I agree with Goji. It's got a really great cast, a good grasp on making an actually 'cinematic' movie, and a creative plot, but it fails in a lot of other categories.

The dub improves heavily on some of what the original version of the film had issues with, such as awful sound design and the fluctuating tone, but even then it's still a little flimsy; not to mention, the infamously bad effects.

It's still on the higher end of the Millennium run and, to be fair, is hardly that bad, but it's nowhere near my top ten.

[eabaker]

I wish I could like this movie as much as everyone else seems to, but it just always falls flat for me..The Sony version is fun, and definitely improves a lot, but it's not enough to save it for me. My opinion on it has improved a bit since that initial theatrical viewing 16 years ago, but it's honestly kind of low on my list of favorites. For what it's worth, I really like the characters, and I do think it's definitely one of the better ones from this era.

I agree with Goji. It's got a really great cast, a good grasp on making an actually 'cinematic' movie, and a creative plot, but it fails in a lot of other categories.

The dub improves heavily on some of what the original version of the film had issues with, such as awful sound design and the fluctuating tone, but even then it's still a little flimsy; not to mention, the infamously bad effects.

It's still on the higher end of the Millennium run and, to be fair, is hardly that bad, but it's nowhere near my top ten.

I totally get what you guys are saying. It's my second-favorite Millennium movie, but that's not saying a whole lot, since I hold most of that era in pretty low regard. It doesn't crack my top ten list, but it does hover somewhere around position 12 or 13 (I don't have a hard and fast order of preference). Basically, it's a movie that does its job well enough to keep me engaged and entertained for the duration, and I walk away with no complaints, a few moments that stand out as really fun, and a wish that I could have seen more of a few characters.

I'm curious how either of you guys (or anybody else on the board, obviously) would respond to this statement: I consider G2K the best Godzilla movie directed by Takao Okawara.

[godzillalives88]

I'm curious how either of you guys (or anybody else on the board, obviously) would respond to this statement: I consider G2K the best Godzilla movie directed by Takao Okawara.

I think I'd narrowly give it to Mechagodzilla II, just because I think it's a competently made, straightforward (if occasionally dull) action movie. However, G2K's definitely my favorite. It's his best film as far as human characters and cinematography go, but it's also severely helped by its American edit. In fact, going off of Japanese versions, I think G2K and Megaguirus are a lot closer in terms of quality.

[Mechagigan]

I'd give it more to Destoroyah than G2K. Destoroyah had some really great effects, a pretty clean and undoubtedly entertaining story, and honestly not many things to complain about beyond the occasional out of place homage or (surprisingly) more choppy effect.

G2K does better at being an actual 'film', and I think the fact it was made during G'98 - a Hollywood production, of course - may have inspired some of the visual techniques and styles. It's just barely not good enough; replace some weird silent moments, cut some shots short, overhaul the effects, and it could easily be his best G movie. Destoroyah's just got the upper hand for being a fair bit more consistent.

[Mr. Xeno]

I really love Destoroyah, but G2K feels like a very different movie. The first was a deeply emotional sendoff that almost double-billed as a horror film. The second was just a very well shot, standard Godzilla movie that, almost ironically, had that very eerie tone to it. I actually really like the more horror-related tone a lot of G2K has, such as the scene where the woman tries to turn off the computers. I'd say G2K is easily Okawara's best made movie, by far, but Destoroyah is probably better overall.

[Rodan]

I'd give it more to Destoroyah than G2K. Destoroyah had some really great effects, a pretty clean and undoubtedly entertaining story, and honestly not many things to complain about beyond the occasional out of place homage or (surprisingly) more choppy effect.

Do you think Destroyah outdoes 2000 in terms of special effects?

I ... don't know if I can agree with that. Look closely at the miniature work in 2000. It's some of the best in the series, and it's complimented by lighting and angles for maybe the first time in four movies.

I think this is easily Okawara's best film in the series, both in terms of his direction and the script he's given, though that's probably not a surprise after expressing my fondness for it last page.

Story-wise my biggest gripe with Destroyah is that it functionally has no characters after about the forty-minute mark.

[Mechagigan]

Monster-wise and (of course) CG wise, I'd say Destoroyah tops G2K - but I will agree the miniature work and most of the other effects looked better in G2K.

I kinda see Destoroyah as a very successful popcorn film. Characters are a little sloppy and unimportant, but it's very good at entertaining and, at least in my opinion, doesn't really do much exactly wrong. Poorly, maybe, but not terrible.

[eabaker]

To me, Destroyah is a movie with some very ambitious themes, and a pretty effective tone, but a badly muddled story structure that gives the characters almost nothing to do. Yes, a few characters make key decisions, but we don't really get a clear indication of what compels them (other than, "Young characters are all about the internet, America, and killing monsters by any means necessary, while old people go along with all the same decisions, but feel kinda bad about it").

2000 is less ambitious, but it does a better job with all of its elements. It's fun; the story is pretty tight; and the characters work to propel the action not by plot necessity, but because of who they are and what they believe, and I'm genuinely interested in them.

I like Destroyah more than most fans seem to, and the two movies are really difficult to compare because their respective stories and tones are so different. They both sit just outside my top 10 (around the same level as Gigan and Terror of Mechagodzilla).

I do put them both well ahead of Mechagodzilla II. I get a lot of what people like about that movie, but I don't feel like it ever really commits to anything tonally or thematically, and most of the characters fall totally flat for me.

[Mechagigan]

MG2 I enjoyed for similar reasons as to why I did Destoroyah; call it either well-intended apathy or the movies just seeming better next to the ones surrounding them (which, considering those would be Mothra and SpaceGodzilla, may be very possible), but I liked that at the very least both movies knew the vast majority of audiences wanted monsters, with some storyline (even if said storyline wasn't always very steady). And, in my opinion, the Heisei fights were usually very entertaining and well done (although less so, occasionally, in Destoroyah) anyways. MG2's characters were simplistic and a little cartoony, and Destoroyah's weren't all that 'utilized', but both get high marks from me for the fun factor.

[eabaker]

I will admit that I really dug MG2 when it first came out, and even now it's not like I dislike it or anything. It's just that these days I tend to kinda tune out everything except the monster scenes.

With G2K, I'm on board for monster scenes and human drama.

[Goji]

I'm curious how either of you guys (or anybody else on the board, obviously) would respond to this statement: I consider G2K the best Godzilla movie directed by Takao Okawara.

I..actually don't disagree with this! Though to be fair, Okawara is probably my third least favorite director (though he'd be the second if SpaceGodzilla didn't exist). There's just something so lifeless about his movies that I can't quite put my finger on. Trust me, during the days when I'd scour local comic conventions looking for new Heisei bootlegs on VHS, I loved Okawara's Mechagodzilla and Destoroyah, but I'm definitely not all that fond of them now. I do think GvMG is pretty decent, and might actually be his best G film, but I also think G2K is deserving of that title. I don't know..I really need to rewatch both. I bought the Blu-Rays, but I don't I actually ever watched them, and I haven't seen either in a while.

Destoroyah frustrates me a bit nowadays. I think the last 25-30 minutes are gripping, and after 20 years, it still pulls me in, but everything before that is kind of a slog. The music is incredible, of course, and Godzilla looks great, but I wish that the characters were more interesting, and that Emiko had a bigger role. Can you imagine if they had gotten Akira Takarada back to reprise his role, and the two of them had more screen time? Who knows if that even would have helped anything, since Okawara is a pretty unremarkable filmmaker IMOHO, but it's a fun thought, anyway.

[eabaker]

Okawara is probably my third least favorite director (though he'd be the second if SpaceGodzilla didn't exist).

Well, now I'm dying to know who else is in that group! Oda? Tezuka? Kitamura? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say probably not Kitamura, so I'm guessing it's one of the other two...

I just realized, in listing the directors in my brain, I initially forgot Koji Hashimoto even existed... But I don't think you're gonna say Hashimoto...

[Zarm]

I am... very confused, having just watched Millennium on blu-ray, Japanese Edition. And... I know I love this movie, but... that was not so great. And I don't want to say it, because it feels heretical, but... I think this may be the extremely rare instance where the American cut is... better.

So, the thing about this film is, it seems to be really good when it's night time, and loses something during the daylight. Odd, that. But the opening (to me) is really tight, the ending fight is fantastic in the mode of vs. Biollante- short but brutal, accomplishing what it wants to without repeating itself, and avoiding falling into excess. But the middle section kind of... it doesn't exactly 'plod'- it just fails to gel.

Okay, the elements. The effects in Godzilla 2000 are uneven at best, moreso than any Mothra films, and some of the bluescreening of Godzilla is really dodgy (especially with strange blurs and mismatched grain). It's a bold choice, to really put him 'into the real world,' although it only pays off every now and then. That said, even with some of the less-successful effects, one thing this film communicates well is a sense of scale and power. The opening, with the lighthouse, and Shinoda's close encounter, are really effective and fantastic; the car driving alongside with Godzilla in the distance, etc. Likewise, both Godzilla and the UFO's beams slamming into each-other, the explosion of the building and alien shockwave, and the impact of the half-UFO with Godzilla's head, really carry an impression of force that some kaiju movies can fail to communicate.

On the other hand- and even though I mention these last, typically, they affect the film so much they bear mentioning here- the true villain of Godzilla Millennium, at least in the original Japanese version, is the soundtrack. Seriously, I get why people talk about the redone American audioscape as the key feature.

Don't get me wrong- I like the new Godzilla theme and the Millennian theme well enough. But the soundtrack just undercuts the film at every opportunity, using languid or no music at all the key moments, and really removing the threat and tension from a ton of scenes. It's almost painful, as a video editor, to see how many moments could have been amazing if a different composer had chosen to score them in a new way. (In a month or two, I'll be checking out the American version again to see the difference). A lot of the failing I perceive in the middle is due to that, I think (well, and some dodgy effects in the river sequence, and also bad continuity- why does Godzilla charge up his nuclear breath, then never fire it, then do it again a second later? Why throw that sequence in there?)

One thing I do like about the Blu-ray... while a number of the scenes seem too light (which may not be doing the SFX any favors), it is clear that, like Biollante, these are fresh subtitles from the original source, not dubtitles. It's wonderful to know that I'm actually seeing the original dialogue intent (though I noted that they very obviously chose to keep 'Oh-guh-ny-zuh G-1' as 'Regenerator G-1,' which I think is a much better name, but it is jarring when it is so clearly different in the dialogue. (And does that mean the lead villain kaiju should be named 'Regen' instead?)

Speaking of which... as a floating rock, the Millennians are pretty cool. Even as a partially-exposed saucer, it's great. Once the full saucer comes out... well, the design isn't bad, but just like in the Mothra trilogy, I really feel the urge to pat the movie condescendingly on the head and note sagely, "I don't think the CGI is ready for that yet, honey." Just... not so great.

Funny, though- I totally recognized the Indiana Jones, Terminator, and Aliens ripoffs in the Heisei era, and the very clear Matrix ripoffs later in Final Wars- but it took me until now, 16 years after I first saw it, to realize how heavily the arrival scene and gawking crowds ripped off Independence Day.

Once the Millennians take shape- and the idea that they existed in a liquid or gaseous state is one the English dub never made clear, which I like- I *really* like the initial, radiator-grille-mouth form; I want to see more of that guy. Even the CGI of the era works, giving it a sort of ethereal, otherworldly quality. Not that I dislike Orga, mind you, but I really dig that little guy. The invisible tentacles absorbing energy are a great effect, too.

When it comes to Orga, I like his initial form best. When he's clubbing Godzilla upside the head with those drug-knuckles of his, he really seems to have the potential for doing some brawling damage (something that, sadly, Godzilla never seems at any real risk of). His energy canon works well (a nice echo of the mothership), and his remote control of the UFO makes him a treacherous opponent. The leap-frog bit is a little unnecessary, but even so- his arsenal, his bulk, and his regenerative abilities make him a pretty intimidating foe. And heck, when he emerges, scarred and flaking, eyes rolled up, from behind the flames, that demonic-looking, unkillable monstrosity seems to me 10 times the 'ultimate foe' that Destroyah or King Ghidorah does. That's an intimidating presence, man. (And of course, one of my favorite Coup-de-graces ever, right up there with Godzilla 2014 and the original vs. Mechagodzilla!)

As for the Big G himself, I dig the redesign. It is probably my third favorite look, next to the general Heisei design and the original 1954 look. I like the spiky spines, the body proportions- I'm not as crazy about the triangular head, but still... I'll take it! The updated spines and nuclear breath effect works really well for me, too, and while I won't be sad to see ti go back to classic blue, I think it fits this film's aesthetic well.

Godzilla's implacability and strength are showcased well, he is shown to be a canny strategist as well as tending to dive right into battle. Regenerator/Organizer G-1 fills in a perfect missing piece to the nature of Godzilla that's clearly been there all along, and explains a lot (Shinoda is lucky that Bio-major never found out he had those G-cells; no telling how many volcanoes they might have blown up to keep them out of Saradian hands!) And as much as it too probably falls under the category of 'dodgy effect,' I love the scene of him swimming underwater.

That leaves us with the humans. To me, Shinoda and Io are one of the more likable protagonist sets in the Millennium era, and in the G-canon in general, and while Yuki is a bit too broadly-comical and whiny for me most of the time (were they trying to spin a romance with Shinoda in there during the microscope scene? And certainly trying to position her as a more serious character when she turns around to rescue Shinoda, after which she basically drops out of the movie completely), she was passable comic relief.

On the other side, Miyasaka is a passable morally-ambiguous, line-straddling character, with a bit of a sense of wonder but also lacking a bit of a spine at times. Katagiri makes a fairly effective villain, not completely two-dimensional, but clearly believing he's doing the right thing at first (even making a better case than Shinoda, in some ways), but slowly becoming ore and more fanatical and driven to the point of utter amorality... and in the end, I think, recognizing it and choosing sepuku as penance. Overall, I find this to be one of the most memorable human casts in a G-film, at least for me, personally; definitely in my top 5.

At least, in the Japanese dub, the 'a little Godzilla in all of us' nonsequiter makes a bit more sense- in the context of the discussion, Shindoa means more that the potential to create Godzilla lies in all of us, and that the responsibility for him is, in some small part, in everyone; it is a caution that the possibility of abusing science with irresponsible use is there for anyone, and thus vigilance must be exercised by all. (To put it into clumsy words). At least the gist of it is clear, as opposed to the straight-up nonsense that it was in the US dub. (Still, the Star Trek: The Next Generation Season 1-style ending wrap-up moralizing is getting very, very silly in 90s/2000s kaiju films.)

And that's Godzilla: Millennium. A lot of pieces that work, cut together (and scored) in a way that often fails them. The effects overreach themselves, but also try some very neat new things that take Godzilla off the miniature sets in a way that is appreciated (especially when it actually succeeds). I will be very interested in revisiting it soon and seeing if the US cut really does save the elements of this film and place them in a package befitting the fond memories I have... or if that's just nostalgia and this was always an overrated film. Either way, I see a lot I want to like here, and a lot of potential- plus an opening and ending set of sequences that are very, very strong (and lots of fun, to boot!)