Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
- Mechagigan
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I will admit the hammy acting throughout the film is one of GMK's issues. There's a difference between the occasional comic relief, and making every single extra incredibly cheesy... and unfortunately, this movie didn't entirely grasp that. To be fair, I feel the Gamera series sometimes didn't, either.
However, GMK does have a Showa flair it isn't afraid to hide... and, based on that, perhaps this was completely intentional. As I've said, there's a difference between a movie being "realistic" and a movie being "dark". GMK is far from true to life, but it does have the ability to showcase it's monsters as actual, realistic beasts. It can do this while still having a more outlandish plot and cast, which is an attribute of the movie that gets muddled up a lot.
The SyFy tone seems to just be a poor side effect of the Millennium series' low budgets and very, very rushed schedules (which actually is part of the reason GMK is so impressive; they had the bare minimum of time to produce the film, yet they made four completely new high-quality suits - even with animatronic features, produced realistic and expansive sets, had shockingly acceptable CG... etc); GMK suffered this the least, but it's certainly still there sometimes.
However, GMK does have a Showa flair it isn't afraid to hide... and, based on that, perhaps this was completely intentional. As I've said, there's a difference between a movie being "realistic" and a movie being "dark". GMK is far from true to life, but it does have the ability to showcase it's monsters as actual, realistic beasts. It can do this while still having a more outlandish plot and cast, which is an attribute of the movie that gets muddled up a lot.
The SyFy tone seems to just be a poor side effect of the Millennium series' low budgets and very, very rushed schedules (which actually is part of the reason GMK is so impressive; they had the bare minimum of time to produce the film, yet they made four completely new high-quality suits - even with animatronic features, produced realistic and expansive sets, had shockingly acceptable CG... etc); GMK suffered this the least, but it's certainly still there sometimes.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
Kaneko's Gamera movies certainly have their share of hammy performances, but they mostly feel intentionally applied to one or two silly or over-the-top characters in each film. Even then, they're almost subtle in comparison to some of the acting and dialogue in GMK. It might also grate on me that GMK frontloads it -- the first half-hour of the film is a barrage of cartoonish performances, and for me that colors everything to come.Mechagigan wrote:I will admit the hammy acting throughout the film is one of GMK's issues. There's a difference between the occasional comic relief, and making every single extra incredibly cheesy... and unfortunately, this movie didn't entirely grasp that. To be fair, I feel the Gamera series sometimes didn't, either.
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Just going to bump this with a double-post because skreeonk the police.
I'm watching this again right now, or at least have it on in the background. I still have really mixed feelings on it. It's almost a great entry, but the ways in which it falls shot or contradicts its own tone are so frustrating.
The dialogue at the TV station in which Yuri's boss tells her they specialize in cheap sci-fi and she says they need to aim higher almost sounds like a mission statement for the film, but surrounding scenes are cluttered with exactly that kind of cheap sci-fi style, maybe intentionally so. There's the hammy acting and setups, the sci-fi stuff like the drill missiles, etc. I hate, hate that scene in which the motorcycle gang terrorizes the village mayor and his wife in the car. What are they doing alone in that parking lot that could possibly have led to them having the conversation they're having at that point? It's just thoughtless, cartoonish setup, which is fine only if you treat the it like a B-movie.
All of this movie's faults are present in other Godzilla films, of course, but most entries don't aim to take themselves seriously the way this does half the time. I wish it had fully committed to it. Kaneko seems to oscillate between two missions: a serious re-examination of Godzilla as a metaphor and exploration of social issues (stuff like the intro pointing out the JSDF has never really been in conflict outside this universe's single Godzilla encounter is interesting and sets up a compelling arc or the father character), and a tongue-in-cheek Showa homage (some of the B-level acting and incidental characters, the monster fights, and even the film's title and opening credit backdrops). I really wish he'd committed to one or the other.
I have no idea where I even rank this in the series, because I love half of what it's doing and it constantly undercuts itself. The feeling I most associate with it is frustration.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I like to think GMK Ghidorah is really a redeemed Yamata no Orochi and not a version of the King of Terror.
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- Mechagigan
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I personally see GMK as more of a Showa homage than anything else, especially not as a very serious or dark movie. They went for roughly the same tone as many earlier installments did, mainly the 60's era movies... some humor and more than a little pseudo-science cheese, but still the 'horror' and impending tone any good monster movie ought to have, at the time.
I think there's a big difference between the movie taking Godzilla seriously/literally, and the movie remembering to make him feared. Movies like RoG and G'14, maybe even G'98, fit the former; they see Godzilla as a real animal, and treat him with the same mix of majesty and awe that would be expected should he really appear. But movies like MvG, GtTHM, etc. portray Godzilla maybe not as accurately to real life as some would like, but they do show him as a scary, intimidating creature. He may not inflict any real shock, but you'll see him as a threat.
GMK captures the latter really, really well. GMK's Godzilla may have some aspects of metaphors attached to him here and there, but generally he's just a big, horrific character.
Not to mention the stylistic choices, the use of the enemy monsters, the general tone... I could ramble on and on.
I think there's a big difference between the movie taking Godzilla seriously/literally, and the movie remembering to make him feared. Movies like RoG and G'14, maybe even G'98, fit the former; they see Godzilla as a real animal, and treat him with the same mix of majesty and awe that would be expected should he really appear. But movies like MvG, GtTHM, etc. portray Godzilla maybe not as accurately to real life as some would like, but they do show him as a scary, intimidating creature. He may not inflict any real shock, but you'll see him as a threat.
GMK captures the latter really, really well. GMK's Godzilla may have some aspects of metaphors attached to him here and there, but generally he's just a big, horrific character.
Not to mention the stylistic choices, the use of the enemy monsters, the general tone... I could ramble on and on.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
Thanks for that post, Mechagigan! Reading this thread lately, and not having watched the movie in a couple of years, I was actually finding myself starting to doubt my own affection for it. You reminded me of a lot of what I really do dig about it!
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
Was definitely not my intent to make any question their affection for this movie! I think I've been at odds with most of the fandom's take on it since my first viewing.eabaker wrote:Thanks for that post, Mechagigan! Reading this thread lately, and not having watched the movie in a couple of years, I was actually finding myself starting to doubt my own affection for it. You reminded me of a lot of what I really do dig about it!
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
It's nice to have a balanced critical reading of the film that isn't too quick to praise it or attack it, considering this movie has had it's fair share of reviews that lean too far this way or the other. I still have strongly mixed feelings on it.
I used to be a lot more optimistic and outgoing, believe it or not. I used to actually be passionate about this stuff.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I think, in general, even its most ardent defenders are becoming more comfortable talking about its flaws. Some of its detractors, though, still just seem rabid to me. But maybe that's because I'm viewing the matter more from the defenders' camp.JVM wrote:I still have strongly mixed feelings on it.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I honestly enjoy GMK, but I don't think its perfect either, though it probably is the best film of the millennium era, especially in terms of its special effects quality & the tone it sets, really playing up Godzilla as something to be afraid of, and for good reason. The comedy moments don't really bother me, & I like how as the monsters emerge from out of the woodworks the jaded human characters either change their tunes as the legends prove real or else suffer the consequences for their foolishness. I do wish they had utilized the originally planned Varan and Anguirus instead of Ghidorah and Mothra, BUT I will admit there are aspects of said creatures I enjoy. I like Ghidorah's special attacks and avian like feet, though I'm not too crazy about his more benign behavior and stumpy heads, and as for Mothra (who is far from my favorite monster), GMK features my fave Mothra design besides Mothra Leo, and I like its stinger attack & would like to see it return in place of eye or antennae beams in the future. Baragon was my fave of the Guardian Monsters, & I wish he had kept his heat breath attack, though it was interesting see the fight play out between him and Godzilla given the size difference between them.
Baragon's performance in the film actually makes me curious as to how he could be utilized in the future...I know he's traditionally one of the smaller kaiju, but I must admit I often wonder how a "Godzilla vs Baragon" movie might play out if the tunneling dinosaur regained his taste for human flesh and was given a size boost to better compete with Godzilla, sea monster vs land monster as it were. What do you guys think? It would be something fresh and new at least instead of another Godzilla vs Ghidorah or Mothra rematch.
Baragon's performance in the film actually makes me curious as to how he could be utilized in the future...I know he's traditionally one of the smaller kaiju, but I must admit I often wonder how a "Godzilla vs Baragon" movie might play out if the tunneling dinosaur regained his taste for human flesh and was given a size boost to better compete with Godzilla, sea monster vs land monster as it were. What do you guys think? It would be something fresh and new at least instead of another Godzilla vs Ghidorah or Mothra rematch.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I think the problem with doing a Godzilla vs. Baragon movie - besides the fact that two saurian monsters sharing the focus might seem a little bland - is that Toho has pushed Godzilla to the point that he's so strong and quick to recover that his opponents have to be made increasingly EXTREME to have any real impact.KaijuDuke wrote:Baragon's performance in the film actually makes me curious as to how he could be utilized in the future...I know he's traditionally one of the smaller kaiju, but I must admit I often wonder how a "Godzilla vs Baragon" movie might play out if the tunneling dinosaur regained his taste for human flesh and was given a size boost to better compete with Godzilla, sea monster vs land monster as it were. What do you guys think? It would be something fresh and new at least instead of another Godzilla vs Ghidorah or Mothra rematch.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
While that is true, Megaguirus wasn't exactly an "extreme" Kaiju but her fight with Godzilla was fun and entertaining and wasn't reduced to two beam spamming tanks bumping into each other. While her movie isn't the greatest, Megaguirus herself provides a breath of fresh air after several movies of massive "extreme" kaiju.
If they played to Baragon's strengths and agility, I think a Godzilla vs. Baragon could work.
If they played to Baragon's strengths and agility, I think a Godzilla vs. Baragon could work.
I can't believe that Godzilla was the only surviving member of its species, but if we continue conducting nuclear tests, it's possible that another Godzilla might appear somewhere in the world again.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I mean, I definitely think it could work as an entertaining movie. I just don't think it would be the kind of movie Toho has worked to see the Godzilla IP as representing in recent years.GalacticPetey wrote:While that is true, Megaguirus wasn't exactly an "extreme" Kaiju but her fight with Godzilla was fun and entertaining and wasn't reduced to two beam spamming tanks bumping into each other. While her movie isn't the greatest, Megaguirus herself provides a breath of fresh air after several movies of massive "extreme" kaiju.
If they played to Baragon's strengths and agility, I think a Godzilla vs. Baragon could work.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I've come to enjoy the film in repeat viewings, but for a period after I had seen it for the first time, I had disliked it, and the strong defense of the film, which seemed composed of mostly blind defense with little critical reasoning behind it, intensified the dislike and of course made it harder to grasp what made the film great. It also caused me to magnify the negatives in my head purely because it felt as if those flaws were being denied, therefore making them seem more glaring for existing. I don't know how much of that reaction was me and how much of it was the people I was encountering, but that was how I felt, and my actions reflected that perception of the film's critical response.eabaker wrote:I think, in general, even its most ardent defenders are becoming more comfortable talking about its flaws. Some of its detractors, though, still just seem rabid to me. But maybe that's because I'm viewing the matter more from the defenders' camp.JVM wrote:I still have strongly mixed feelings on it.
I do think that, on a personal level, I did not and only recently have really began to fully understand the background for Godzilla's behavior in the film, in regards to Japan's treatment of the Pacific War, although I recall there being significant disagreement back in the day about whether the film's explanation was adequate, and even some about whether or not the American and Japanese films use the same explanation. Obviously having difficulty grasping the concept harms the film to some degree, reducing Godzilla from a return to his symbolic and metaphorical roots os just being teh evilz.
That's all in the past. I've rewatched the film and found much more to like about it, and while many of the same flaws still exist to me, nonetheless the movie has largely redeemed itself in my eyes. I don't dislike it outright, and respect what it tries to do, whether it succeeds or fails.
I think both sides have matured, and the defenders in particular are a lot more willing, as you mentioned, to critically evaluate it's positives and negatives, but I also think the detractors are fading back in turn, though far from overnight.
I used to be a lot more optimistic and outgoing, believe it or not. I used to actually be passionate about this stuff.
- Mechagigan
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I will admit I definitely wasn't a fan of GMK for some good time; it's a bit calm with its plot and perhaps mundane to the viewer looking for more classic Kaiju fun.
I do think, too, GMK is absolutely best for 'fans' or those knowing the genre. It's a very good film, and probably one of the (if not the second or third) top choices for a 'quality' Godzilla installment, but I have no doubt that a lot of my love for it can source from more personal or specific to the subject qualifiers.
I do think, too, GMK is absolutely best for 'fans' or those knowing the genre. It's a very good film, and probably one of the (if not the second or third) top choices for a 'quality' Godzilla installment, but I have no doubt that a lot of my love for it can source from more personal or specific to the subject qualifiers.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I've found that there is a certain class of non-fan who respond really well to it; it feels "classier" than most other Godzilla movies, more something a "respectable audience" might enjoy.Mechagigan wrote:I do think, too, GMK is absolutely best for 'fans' or those knowing the genre. It's a very good film, and probably one of the (if not the second or third) top choices for a 'quality' Godzilla installment, but I have no doubt that a lot of my love for it can source from more personal or specific to the subject qualifiers.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
Well, stylistically I felt it was almost like a spiritual successor to the 90s Gamera trilogy, which were pretty well recieved even outside Kaiju fandoms iirc.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
I'm interested in upgrading my Sony DVD to the 2-pack Blu Ray with Against Mechagodzilla. Does anyone know if it still has dubtitles? Or is it a new translation?
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
Still dubtitlesUltramanGoji wrote:I'm interested in upgrading my Sony DVD to the 2-pack Blu Ray with Against Mechagodzilla. Does anyone know if it still has dubtitles? Or is it a new translation?
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
They're minimally altered from the first release -- I think a handful of lines were tweaked -- but they're largely the same as the first set of dubtitles.UltramanGoji wrote:I'm interested in upgrading my Sony DVD to the 2-pack Blu Ray with Against Mechagodzilla. Does anyone know if it still has dubtitles? Or is it a new translation?
They'll get you through the film, and 90% of the time they're not far off from what's being said, but it's not exact.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)
Do the subtitles still have them saying "good" and "got him" when they accidently shoot Ghidorah?
I can't believe that Godzilla was the only surviving member of its species, but if we continue conducting nuclear tests, it's possible that another Godzilla might appear somewhere in the world again.