Is Final Wars Zilla REALLY that weak? (My 2 cents)

[Kaiju-Killer 751]

Okay, I know what you're thinking; this craptastic cgi bastard AGAIN? F*CK HIM! But here me out for a sec, will you kindly? Okay, yes, I know that it DID have to be done (Godzilla killing the '98 version in a parody char.) but, when you think about it, Zilla isn't QUITE as weak as you would imagine. For starters, his sheer size alone (which our KWC holds him at about 90 meters tall and weighing 35,000 tons) would probably allow for some extra toughness in tanking hits from, say, the military (the people who AREN'T supposed to kill Godzilla.) On that note, Zilla had been rampaging for a while at that point (destroying the Sydney Space Needle, causing massive destruction to several blocks that resulted in them going up in flames, vaporizing a few dozen people with his 'Acidic Firing Beam' or whatever the hell Kitamura called it.) And despite being stretched thin, the EDF and/or the UN must have sent SOMEONE to contain Zilla at one point, right? Well, either they didn't give a screeonk about Sydney (which is unlikely, even in Godzilla films) or, they DID send some guys to kill him...but they failed. At the very least he was dealing with the same resistance his design's precursor did, probably tanking it way better because he can't hide as well (he's HUMONGOUS compared to 98.) Furthermore, just when Zilla is about to try and devour those two guys, his tail smashes into the building as he's turning around, leveling the entire skyscraper with a SINGLE, FRICKING, TAIL WHIP. Not to mention the explosions going off around him as he's making the final lunge (could be the military trying to take him down, too.) Finally, FW Godzilla is, at least in a sense, the Composite Godzilla. He's super strong, gargantuan, quick reflexes, insane durability and regeneration, not to mention he has the Spiral Ray! He's among THE most powerful Toho Godzillas out there (next to Burning Godzilla, of course.) Keep in mind, he had similarly dispatched enemies in very short timeframes (Kamacuras, Kumonga, Ebirah, Hedorah, even his allies Rodan, Anguirus, and King Caesar) who had all shown to either be a threat for a little while to the King of the Monsters, or be strong enough for it to take an entire movie to finally kill them (or ally them.) Hell, Zilla needed a charged Atomic Breath (or it at least looked that way due to the extra amount of time he took preparing to fire) after being smashed into the Opera House which was like being thrown into a shed of dynamite (but then it's a Japanese Monster Film; everything blows up) from a tail whip to be killed. I'm not saying he's invulnerable, or that he could actually kill Godzilla. I'm just saying he's quite a bit stronger than I think people give him credit for.

Thank you for reading, and feel free to critique.

[Zarm]

That is a good point - honestly, the time that it takes to beat him down is used for the clearly intentional joke (which I appreciate), but it becomes much less significant considering that even lesser times are required to take down foes like Hedorah which, fan consensus seems to suggest is among the strongest social Godzilla ever faced. Final Wars unintentionally undermines itself and ruins its own joke by making everyone that vulnerable. Actually kind of funny how no one ever really noticed until now...

[Dawsbfiremind]

True. Most of the monsters were probably more powerful than the movie let on, but thanks to the "let's include every monster possible" outlook, they got so little screentime that they all looked like wimps.

[Spuro]

In a nutshell, we know most FW monsters are weaklings because:

Gigan: Was blown to tiny pieces because Mothra flew into him while on fire. That's the equivalent of exploding when you trip over a campfire. Dude must be made of gasoline.

Kamacurus: Impaled by an electric tower. I don't think I need to explain why that's pathetic.

Rodan: KOed by a mid-air collision with Anguirus. While this might not sound bad on its own, remember that Showa Rodan came out of a similar mid-air collision with a larger opponent, no worse for wear.

Anguirus: Rolled into a mountain.

King Caeser: Jumped into a mountain.

Ebirah: Mutilated by handheld weapons.

Hedorah: Killed by atomic breath (Showa was almost immune to it by his final form.)

Keizer Ghidorah: Decapitated by beams not even designed for dealing physical damage.

Mothra: Wing easily sliced off by terribly dull buzz saw, and then lit on fire by a rather unimpressive beam.

Only Kumonga and Zilla are up in the air. Zilla is generally assumed weak because, well, he's Zilla. Kumonga is considered weaker than his Showa counterpart because of the lack of barb and ineffective webbing.

Manda, on the other hand, might be the only FW monster, aside from Godzilla, who's actually as tough as the Showa version. Monster X has also shown to be decently durable, though his melee skills are pretty sub par.

[Kaiju-Killer 751]

In a nutshell, we know most FW monsters are weaklings because:

Gigan: Was blown to tiny pieces because Mothra flew into him while on fire. That's the equivalent of exploding when you trip over a campfire. Dude must be made of gasoline.

Kamacurus: Impaled by an electric tower. I don't think I need to explain why that's pathetic.

Rodan: KOed by a mid-air collision with Anguirus. While this might not sound bad on its own, remember that Showa Rodan came out of a similar mid-air collision with a larger opponent, no worse for wear.

Anguirus: Rolled into a mountain.

King Caeser: Jumped into a mountain.

Ebirah: Mutilated by handheld weapons.

Hedorah: Killed by atomic breath (Showa was almost immune to it by his final form.)

Keizer Ghidorah: Decapitated by beams not even designed for dealing physical damage.

Mothra: Wing easily sliced off by terribly dull buzz saw, and then lit on fire by a rather unimpressive beam.

Only Kumonga and Zilla are up in the air. Zilla is generally assumed weak because, well, he's Zilla. Kumonga is considered weaker than his Showa counterpart because of the lack of barb and ineffective webbing.

Manda, on the other hand, might be the only FW monster, aside from Godzilla, who's actually as tough as the Showa version. Monster X has also shown to be decently durable, though his melee skills are pretty sub par.

That is true; perhaps it was to make Godzilla even MORE god-like? Especially to please the fans who never liked a lot of the monsters on the roster?

[edgaguirus]

It's very likely the monsters look weak because of time constraints. Toho squeezed so many monsters and fights into this movie, but time constraints didn't allow for long fights. So the fights are short and to the point. The end battle last longer because it's the movie climax, and must be exciting to keep audience interest.

The FW Zilla seems more durable, but I don't see it as that much stronger than the 98 version. They're both agile and effective physical fighters, and that's about it.

[Omegamorph]

Does it really matter how weak he is

structurally speaking the character is a punchline and it serves its intended purpose

[Zarm]

That is true; perhaps it was to make Godzilla even MORE god-like? Especially to please the fans who never liked a lot of the monsters on the roster?

I mean, to me, it should have always been like it was with the Kamacaras, Ebirah, Biollante, Megaguirus, etc.; incredibly strong, super-powerful, impervious to human assault- but one atomic breath, maybe two, and they're toast. (Which is why I don't even think King Kong vs. Godzilla should be a thing). Unless there's a shield or specific counter-powers involved, it always felt to me like most kaiju should be taken out this easily by Godzilla. It's kind of like the Rock, or Muhamed Ali; they represent quite a challenge to any physical fighter, can overpower nearly anyone they come across, can't really be subdued by the average guy- but you bring out a gun, and bullets will still easily kill them. The atomic breaht is the kaiju equivalent of a gun, to my eyes; most of Godzilla's foes should last about .03 seconds. (Barring unsual circumstances; and even then, only justified ones; I can buy Orga's regeneration, Space-godzilla's forcefield, even King Ghidorah's biology ebing somehow resistant, because he's an alien. I don't honestly see any justification why, say, Rodan or Hedorah ought to be beam-proof, they just kind of 'are.')

So in a way- as I've said on other threads- Final Wars does embody that childhood 'Godzilla should have always been this powerful!' feel.

...And then, as Kaiju-King42 points out, they kind of wreck it by having almost NONE of the victories come from the atomic ray or Godzilla's physical feats (a.k.a. 'Godzilla is awesome!'), but instead by physical objects whose strength we already know (a.k.a. 'Nope, his foes are just made out of cardboard.')

Added in 3 minutes 47 seconds:

Does it really matter how weak he is

structurally speaking the character is a punchline and it serves its intended purpose

Agreed- but on a site where power-speculation and fantasy matches are rampant, accuracy is key. Plus, I understand it; I have no particular like of Zilla, but for his fans, it's a matter of reputation and honor- which both he and his similar-in-appearance 1998 counterpart are accorded very little of to begin with- so set the record straight. I'm the same way with, say Star Trek: The Motion Picture, or Star trek: Voyager, or Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, so I get what it's like to stand up for the unfairly-glossed-over good points of a much-maligned entity.

[Omegamorph]

wait


you're telling me there are people that dislike Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow?



What a terrible world we live in

[Zarm]

Not sure if that is sarcasm (that's the most frustrating thing about internet communication; the lack of tone! Event he most earnest of statements can seem as if they're steeped in sarcasm, and vice-versa!)... but yes, quite a few.

I am definitely not among them; that's the only film I've ever seen 5 times in the theater. Just made me feel completely like a kid again every time I watched it- and I love the score! (Having a pre-existing fondness for old movie serials during childhood probably helps...)

Anyway, sorry- I don't mean to derail an excellent thread... it's actually one of the most substantive discussions on Final Wars that I've seen here. Carry on!

[Spuro]

I don't honestly see any justification why, say, Rodan or Hedorah ought to be beam-proof, they just kind of 'are.')

Same reason they're bullet/missile/bomb proof? Enhanced durability.

[Zarm]

I don't honestly see any justification why, say, Rodan or Hedorah ought to be beam-proof, they just kind of 'are.')

Same reason they're bullet/missile/bomb proof? Enhanced durability.

I guess I just don't get how 'enhanced durability' translates to 'not harmed by a stream of solid radiation and/or atomic heat ray, (depending on your scientific understanding of this not especially understanding phenomenon).' Like I said, I get that a tougher hide might render them invulnerable to human weaponry; to me, the atomic heat ray is on a whole different level. Radioactivity tends to just slice straight through things- and based on the effect we see it having, its destructive capacity seems to be orders of magnitude beyond human munitions. Hence why I used the analogy with famous fighters and bodybuilders. Their physique may allow them to shrug off punches. It doesn't repel bullets, because the two aren't comparable. I tend to see Godzilla's ray in a similar way.

Anyway, this is again hijacking the thread. So, sorry again.

[Kaiju-Killer 751]

That is true; perhaps it was to make Godzilla even MORE god-like? Especially to please the fans who never liked a lot of the monsters on the roster?

I mean, to me, it should have always been like it was with the Kamacaras, Ebirah, Biollante, Megaguirus, etc.; incredibly strong, super-powerful, impervious to human assault- but one atomic breath, maybe two, and they're toast. (Which is why I don't even think King Kong vs. Godzilla should be a thing). Unless there's a shield or specific counter-powers involved, it always felt to me like most kaiju should be taken out this easily by Godzilla. It's kind of like the Rock, or Muhamed Ali; they represent quite a challenge to any physical fighter, can overpower nearly anyone they come across, can't really be subdued by the average guy- but you bring out a gun, and bullets will still easily kill them. The atomic breaht is the kaiju equivalent of a gun, to my eyes; most of Godzilla's foes should last about .03 seconds. (Barring unsual circumstances; and even then, only justified ones; I can buy Orga's regeneration, Space-godzilla's forcefield, even King Ghidorah's biology ebing somehow resistant, because he's an alien. I don't honestly see any justification why, say, Rodan or Hedorah ought to be beam-proof, they just kind of 'are.')

So in a way- as I've said on other threads- Final Wars does embody that childhood 'Godzilla should have always been this powerful!' feel.

...And then, as Kaiju-King42 points out, they kind of wreck it by having almost NONE of the victories come from the atomic ray or Godzilla's physical feats (a.k.a. 'Godzilla is awesome!'), but instead by physical objects whose strength we already know (a.k.a. 'Nope, his foes are just made out of cardboard.')

Sure, that definitely stands as truth, there's no argument (ie Godzilla's atomic breath is incredibly destructive). But, that takes out the entire fun of a kaiju battle, right? I mean, all Godzilla has to do is stand there and fire his atomic breath at whoever the hell comes close to him. No more grappling, no more trading blows, no more exciting beat the snot out of each other action! Hell, if Godzilla did that in most of his movies (firing his atomic breath and one-two shotting almost anyone who came at them) what fun would there be? Sure, Godzilla is meant to be a nearly-indestructible force, but he needs to still have a challenge when he fights. If there's no challenge, then there's no character, no story, just a bland reptilian laser cannon.

[Zarm]

Sure, that definitely stands as truth, there's no argument (ie Godzilla's atomic breath is incredibly destructive). But, that takes out the entire fun of a kaiju battle, right? I mean, all Godzilla has to do is stand there and fire his atomic breath at whoever the hell comes close to him. No more grappling, no more trading blows, no more exciting beat the snot out of each other action! Hell, if Godzilla did that in most of his movies (firing his atomic breath and one-two shotting almost anyone who came at them) what fun would there be? Sure, Godzilla is meant to be a nearly-indestructible force, but he needs to still have a challenge when he fights. If there's no challenge, then there's no character, no story, just a bland reptilian laser cannon.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree- heck, I'm not the one who gave him the heat ray! I'm not saying that would make for a great movie, necessarily, just that that's the way it always seems it ought to work, based on the weapon that they'd already given him. I think there's some situations where that would actually make for good filmmaking- the battle with Biollante works mostly that way, and it is certainly not lacking in any grappling or action. It's short and sweet- it doesn't wear out its welcome, and while we may wish for it to go on a little longer, it's in the 'always leave them wanting more, mode that is not actually dissatisfying. Conversely, SpaceGodzilla has plenty of reason to resist the beams and the battle goes on forever- and that's not necessarily a good thing. Megaguirus is not one of my favorite Kaiju battles, but it works on the agility principal- the rat will be instantly fatal, but landing that blow is the hard part. The battle with Orga is one that I enjoy a bit more, and once again, it uses the beam as spectacularly fatal, but the challenge is in the healing factor angle. So, I think that there is some potential in the use of that killer-beam approach- it's just a lot more limited and requires a lot more creativity.

(And I suppose I am biased in that direction- as I don't always enjoy the showa-style physical scrapping or find it that exciting; I am more Beam Wars kind of guy.


But, that's just me. And I know that a lot of the great fights in Kaiju history wouldn't happen by adhering to this principle. It would severely limit our options. I'm just saying that based on the way his ray is presented, that always seems the way things ought to happen, whether that would make for a good story or not. So I never really bought it when a kaiju without any particular reason for beam immunity give Godzilla a hard time; heck, it's why I have trouble taking Mothra vs. Godzilla (as a matchup, not the movie with that title) seriously, because it feels like Mothea should basically be the same as Megaguirus in terms of taking one hit and bursting into flames. That doesn't mean that this not happening doesn't make for a much better movie! It just always seemed to be cheating in order to actually give us a better movie.

While Final Wars plays by what seems like 'the rules,' the way the atomic ray ought to work, and consequently, yeah, none of the bottles were all that good except for the final one where the guy had beam immunity.

[Kaiju-Killer 751]

Sure, that definitely stands as truth, there's no argument (ie Godzilla's atomic breath is incredibly destructive). But, that takes out the entire fun of a kaiju battle, right? I mean, all Godzilla has to do is stand there and fire his atomic breath at whoever the hell comes close to him. No more grappling, no more trading blows, no more exciting beat the snot out of each other action! Hell, if Godzilla did that in most of his movies (firing his atomic breath and one-two shotting almost anyone who came at them) what fun would there be? Sure, Godzilla is meant to be a nearly-indestructible force, but he needs to still have a challenge when he fights. If there's no challenge, then there's no character, no story, just a bland reptilian laser cannon.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree- heck, I'm not the one who gave him the heat ray! I'm not saying that would make for a great movie, necessarily, just that that's the way it always seems it ought to work, based on the weapon that they'd already given him. I think there's some situations where that would actually make for good filmmaking- the battle with Biollante works mostly that way, and it is certainly not lacking in any grappling or action. It's short and sweet- it doesn't wear out its welcome, and while we may wish for it to go on a little longer, it's in the 'always leave them wanting more, mode that is not actually dissatisfying. Conversely, SpaceGodzilla has plenty of reason to resist the beams and the battle goes on forever- and that's not necessarily a good thing. Megaguirus is not one of my favorite Kaiju battles, but it works on the agility principal- the rat will be instantly fatal, but landing that blow is the hard part. The battle with Orga is one that I enjoy a bit more, and once again, it uses the beam as spectacularly fatal, but the challenge is in the healing factor angle. So, I think that there is some potential in the use of that killer-beam approach- it's just a lot more limited and requires a lot more creativity.

(And I suppose I am biased in that direction- as I don't always enjoy the showa-style physical scrapping or find it that exciting; I am more Beam Wars kind of guy.


But, that's just me. And I know that a lot of the great fights in Kaiju history wouldn't happen by adhering to this principle. It would severely limit our options. I'm just saying that based on the way his ray is presented, that always seems the way things ought to happen, whether that would make for a good story or not. So I never really bought it when a kaiju without any particular reason for beam immunity give Godzilla a hard time; heck, it's why I have trouble taking Mothra vs. Godzilla (as a matchup, not the movie with that title) seriously, because it feels like Mothea should basically be the same as Megaguirus in terms of taking one hit and bursting into flames. That doesn't mean that this not happening doesn't make for a much better movie! It just always seemed to be cheating in order to actually give us a better movie.

While Final Wars plays by what seems like 'the rules,' the way the atomic ray ought to work, and consequently, yeah, none of the bottles were all that good except for the final one where the guy had beam immunity.

Precisely, my good friend. Perhaps the Atomic Breath should be used as an ultimatum for battles as the finishing blow after a battle.

[TitanoGoji16]

My only problem with your train of thought concerning Godzilla's ray, Zarm, is that plenty of monsters can shoot beams or fire or heat rays or acid of some kind. Why should Godzilla's be the only one to insta-kill its targets? Or, if you're suggesting that this should be the case for EVERY monster's beam weapon, then that would result in a dead Godzilla very quickly, as enemy monsters usually hit Godzilla with their weapons long before he hits them with his.

[Zarm]

I just see a ray of pure radioactivity chaneled into aparently-concussive or heat-generating form- especially one that has been shown to have the effect that it does on its surrounding environment- as inherently more destructive than an acid or fire. Certainly there are some other kinds of rays- the corona beam, the gravity beams- which are in theory likewise strong (even if neither of those weapons ever seemed as powerful to me as the radioactive ray.)

But anything that can, say, melt those steel towers like wax, as he does in the early showa movies, just seems inherently more powerful than almost any of the weapons that he runs up against.

And those other weapons that are at the same level are usually directed against Godzilla has a specific regeneration factor to deal with it. Godzilla, with the most powerful of weapons- based on a property that in real life is particularly hard to block or shield and just straight-up destroys living tissue- as its ammo, so he seems inherently stronger, and has a weapon inherently stronger than any of his foes'.

Which, admittedly, makes it difficult coming up with a challenge for him that is believable- but that's kind of the problem inherent in the creature and weapon they chose to portray.

To me, at least.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

Keep in mind, he had similarly dispatched enemies in very short timeframes (Kamacuras, Kumonga, Ebirah, Hedorah, even his allies Rodan, Anguirus, and King Caesar) who had all shown to either be a threat for a little while to the King of the Monsters, or be strong enough for it to take an entire movie to finally kill them (or ally them.)

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but Final Wars is in its own separate continuity so feats from other movies don't necessarily apply to Final Wars' versions. Still, it doesn't change the fact that everyone aside from Godzilla and Monster X was dispatched just as quickly.

[Fyrstorm]

I'd say it's less of Zilla/the other Final Wars kaiju being really weak, and more of Final Wars Godzilla being obscenely overpowered (which, honestly, was kinda to the detriment of the film. An invincible protagonist breezing past everyone in 30 seconds or less isn't fun to see-- that's why I like the Monster X fight so much). Against another version of Godzilla, with producers who didn't feel like showing their vendetta against the American film (bit of a hyperbole), FW Zilla may have had a better showing. Maybe.

[CheetoKamper]

I have a hard time thinking the Godzilla was super beefed up in Final Wars is an actual thing. If you really think about it the only monsters he dispatches REALLY QUICKLY are Zilla (who gets killed by missiles so I mean yeah he kinda is that weak compared to the rest),Kumonga, Gigan the first time, and Kamacurus. Hedorah and Ebirah are kind of wildcards in my book as we joined a fight in progress there and it kept going on in the background for a bit so I don't really count that fight as anything. But then you had Rodan, King Caeser, and Anguirus who gave him one hell of a time for a bit and yeah I get it was a 3 on 1 but he never really did anything crazy in terms of strength there. I mean he kinda threw KC but he also was just using his momentum against him. So I don't really think he was crazy strong, with the exception of Gigan most of the monsters we saw him fight for more than 3 seconds (not Hedorah and Ebirah) were monsters that aren't exactly the toughest guys on the block.