Kiryu and Godzilla:dead or alive?

[SpaceG92]

Remember, the bones are linked up to a DNA Computer which holds his memories. The computer is obviously is coded and displayed is in Japanese, since Gojira is Kiryu it's assumed since Kiryu has access to the computer data he understands and can transmit messages in Japanese.

At least that's how I understood it. If the above came out confusing, my bad :/

[20th Century Boy]

Remember, the bones are linked up to a DNA Computer which holds his memories. The computer is obviously is coded and displayed is in Japanese, since Gojira is Kiryu it's assumed since Kiryu has access to the computer data he understands and can transmit messages in Japanese.

At least that's how I understood it. If the above came out confusing, my bad :/

That makes sense, but it's still weird... Like something out of an anime.

[KaijuDuke]

What reason would Godzilla have to return? Other than his first appearance in GXMG he always returned to land because he was drawn to Kiryu's remains. Now they are both back underwater.

Remember, Godzilla's first attack at the beginning of Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla had nothing to do with the bones, they were brought to Japan later after his first attack (and it presumably took a long time to finish building a robot around the bones). The whole "Goji is attracted to the bones" concept was always a rather weak idea in my opinion, just something they came up with to justify forcing Mothra into the sequel (not that Mothra caring about Godzilla's bones makes much sense either). Also doesn't help that it diminishes the accomplishments and struggles of the characters from the first film, who worked hard to convince everyone that MechaG was their best bet of survival against Godzilla despite the risks of it going rogue, only for the sequel to reveal it was MechaG's fault for Godzilla's return (even though his first attack had nothing to do with the bones).

Also, even with MechaG gone, and plot issues aside, if more monsters were created/revived, Godzilla would probably return to reclaim his territory, and even if that weren't the case, the original Godzilla attacked Japan in 1954 without the need of skeletal remains or other monsters to attract him.

[cloverfan98]

What reason would Godzilla have to return? Other than his first appearance in GXMG he always returned to land because he was drawn to Kiryu's remains. Now they are both back underwater.

Remember, Godzilla's first attack at the beginning of Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla had nothing to do with the bones, they were brought to Japan later after his first attack (and it presumably took a long time to finish building a robot around the bones). The whole "Goji is attracted to the bones" concept was always a rather weak idea in my opinion, just something they came up with to justify forcing Mothra into the sequel (not that Mothra caring about Godzilla's bones makes much sense either). Also doesn't help that it diminishes the accomplishments and struggles of the characters from the first film, who worked hard to convince everyone that MechaG was their best bet of survival against Godzilla despite the risks of it going rogue, only for the sequel to reveal it was MechaG's fault for Godzilla's return (even though his first attack had nothing to do with the bones).

Also, even with MechaG gone, and plot issues aside, if more monsters were created/revived, Godzilla would probably return to reclaim his territory, and even if that weren't the case, the original Godzilla attacked Japan in 1954 without the need of skeletal remains or other monsters to attract him.

I think that having Godzilla stay underwater brings a decent end to the Kiryu saga but every point you mentioned is quite valid. Plus am I the only one who would pick MG over Mothra to protect me any day? I mean really? Godzilla Cyborg with lasers, big pacifist butterfly. Guess which one my money is on.

[Carthormerr]

Godzilla was wounded, but far from dead

How so? He was far from dead when he didn't have that large hole in his chest.

I doubt MechaG would have carried Godzilla to safety if he was already at death's door (otherwise he wouldn't have "hijacked" himself)...And I doubt Toho set up that ending with the lab unless it was meant to hint at a sequel in which Godzilla would face more oldschool monsters (which he did, just not in the same continuity unfortunately)

No sarcasm intended here, but you seem to have forgotten the point of the entire movie. Souls of the dead, returned to the sea. Now it could no doubt be debated whether or not G died, but in the context of "souls of the dead" and "returned to the sea", him dying makes perfect sense. And the end credits scene has nothing to do with G surviving that fight. That too, has to do with a theme. "Godzilla is a product of mankind's mistake, Kiryu was created from G" Now here at end credits you have them attempting to make something from G again... another mistake. Also, how would a bio-engineered opponent be old school?

[KaijuDuke]

Godzilla was wounded, but far from dead

How so? He was far from dead when he didn't have that large hole in his chest.

I doubt MechaG would have carried Godzilla to safety if he was already at death's door (otherwise he wouldn't have "hijacked" himself)...And I doubt Toho set up that ending with the lab unless it was meant to hint at a sequel in which Godzilla would face more oldschool monsters (which he did, just not in the same continuity unfortunately)

No sarcasm intended here, but you seem to have forgotten the point of the entire movie. Souls of the dead, returned to the sea. Now it could no doubt be debated whether or not G died, but in the context of "souls of the dead" and "returned to the sea", him dying makes perfect sense. And the end credits scene has nothing to do with G surviving that fight. That too, has to do with a theme. "Godzilla is a product of mankind's mistake, Kiryu was created from G" Now here at end credits you have them attempting to make something from G again... another mistake. Also, how would a bio-engineered opponent be old school?

I meant they could have used those DNA samples to clone many of the oldschool original kaiju, many of whom died in their original film appearances, like Baragon, Rodan, Varan, the Gargantuas, etc. And lets face it, if they had gone that rout, they would have brought back Godzilla to face them rather than do a film without him (and I don't think they would have shown Godzilla roaring on his way to the bottom of the sea & still moving if they intended to kill him off, they would have done it onscreen if he were seriously meant to die).

Cloverfan98 wrote:
I think that having Godzilla stay underwater brings a decent end to the Kiryu saga but every point you mentioned is quite valid. Plus am I the only one who would pick MG over Mothra to protect me any day? I mean really? Godzilla Cyborg with lasers, big pacifist butterfly. Guess which one my money is on.

Yeah, I gotta agree with you there big time, even though I don't quite buy MechaG as a good guy due to his antagonistic roots and being possessed by the spirit of the 1954 Godzilla (or at least inheriting his killer instincts due to his DNA computer), I'd still rather have a cyborg Big G on my side in a fight against Godzilla rather than Mothra XD. I mean, while Tokyo S.O.S. Mothra was beautifully done and kept her reflective scales, she was far from being the strongest Mothra ever and didn't really possess any attacks that could possibly subdue, drive off, or kill Godzilla (not saying she should be able to turn into millions of killer butterflies like in the Rebirth of Mothra movies or something, just saying she should have some manner of offensive weapon like GMK stingers or heisei beam antennae). I mean, I think its safe to say that if Mothra had tried to follow up on her threat of attacking Japan if they didn't return the bones to the sea, MechaG would have SLAUGHTERED her XD.

[cloverfan98]

Plus am I the only one who would pick MG over Mothra to protect me any day? I mean really? Godzilla Cyborg with lasers, big pacifist butterfly. Guess which one my money is on.

Which one goes berserk and malfunctions easily?

.......... HEY THE UPDATE PATCH IS COMING ALRIGHT? THE SERVERS WERE DOWN!

[KaijuDuke]

Plus am I the only one who would pick MG over Mothra to protect me any day? I mean really? Godzilla Cyborg with lasers, big pacifist butterfly. Guess which one my money is on.

Which one goes berserk and malfunctions easily?

.......... HEY THE UPDATE PATCH IS COMING ALRIGHT? THE SERVERS WERE DOWN!

Too many spam files saved to its hard drive, even DNA computers can only take so much

[The Falcon Mech Z]

I'd hate to think of such a beautiful ending, with Kiryu putting himself to rest and taking Godzilla with him, being ruined by having Godzilla survive. One of the nice things about the Millennium series constantly rebooting itself is that the filmmakers were free to actually have Godzilla die, without having to stick some silly Freddy Krueger bullshit at the end to suggest that he'll be back. For me, in the continuity of Against Mechagodzilla and Tokyo S.O.S., both monsters bite it at the end. Closure is so rare in these movies.

Spot on

Bullseye!!!

[kpa]

I prefer to think Godzilla survived, the movie's ending certainly gave no indication that he was dead or dying, especially since it set itself up for a sequel that never came sadly (Final Wars taking its place instead).

But Toho wasn't setting up a sequel, and FINAL WARS didn't take the place of a planned third Kiryu film.

Repeating an old post...

Toho always hoped the 50th anniversary Godzilla film would get an international theatrical release. That meant a standalone story that international audiences could easily follow, not a part 3 wrapping up two other movies that weren't widely released or seen outside Japan by 2004. Obviously FINAL WARS failed to deliver what Toho hoped for, but that was the plan.

With the exception that the anniversary film would be targeted for international sales, Toho never plans out the Godzilla movies years in advance. They did the series one movie at a time, so GODZILLA AGAINST MECHAGODZILLA wasn't even conceived as part 1 of a 2 part story (let alone the start of a trilogy). Producer Shogo Tomiyama said Toho was originally planning another standalone Godzilla movie with Mothra for 2003, but director Masaaki Tezuka pitched a story treatment treatment for a direct sequel featuring Mothra and Kiryu. The producers liked it so that's what they decided to do. Both Tezuka and Tomiyama also said in 2003 that the second Kiryu film would conclude the story.

Quotes from an interview with Tomiyama, conducted May 1, 2003 (while TOKYO SOS was in production)...

At the beginning of this year, we were thinking of including Mothra, a "Plus Alpha" [a popular box office and merchandising] character, if another Godzilla film went into production. I had a chance to see Tezuka's plot idea for the film and it was really interesting. His concept eventually became an impulse to move the project ahead.

In this production of GODZILLA X MOTHRA X MECHAGODZILLA: TOKYO SOS, the battle between Godzilla and Mechagodzilla will come to an end. That will conclude the story. I'm also thinking next year's 50th anniversary of Godzilla's birth. I intend to make the anniversary film into a sort of conclusion to all the Godzilla movies ever made.

First, the decision to do the 50th anniversary commemoration project is not mine to make. Even if we don't start the film quickly under the best of conditions, I really hope it doesn't turn out bad. When we do the 50th anniversary project, I want to search thoroughly for talent both in and out of our studio, and we could turn up with as many as 10,000 potential cast and crew members. That is a very good thought.

The closing shot of TOKYO SOS was intended to show that mankind has not learned from the Kiryu incident(s), not that the next film would show the results of their folly.

I doubt MechaG would have carried Godzilla to safety if he was already at death's door (otherwise he wouldn't have "hijacked" himself)

The main thrust of the story was about respecting life and returning the original Godzilla's bones to the sea. That's what inspired Kiryu's actions, which would have been pointless if he left the second Godzilla behind in Tokyo. Whether Godzilla lived or died, Kiryu's actions made sure his body was out of mankind's reach.

Godzilla's fate at film's end is ambiguous and open to interpretation. But Toho never intended to continue this story, so assuming Godzilla must have lived because he would be back for a direct sequel doesn't hold up.

Remember, Godzilla's first attack at the beginning of Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla had nothing to do with the bones, they were brought to Japan later after his first attack

That's incorrect. GxMG begins in 1999, and the opening scene of the film shows the JSDF's anti-monster unit completing the recovery of the original Godzilla's bones... they load their discovery into some military vehicles and move out. That night, Godzilla comes ashore at the exact same spot.

Shortly after Godzilla's rampage, top scientists are recruited for the Kiryu project and shown Godzilla's bones. The film then jumps to 2003 as Kiryu is completed. Godzilla returns as Kiryu is activated for his first public demonstration.

[gatorzilla]

That's incorrect. GxMG begins in 1999, and the opening scene of the film shows the JSDF's anti-monster unit completing the recovery of the original Godzilla's bones... they load their discovery into some military vehicles and move out. That night, Godzilla comes ashore at the exact same spot.

Shortly after Godzilla's rampage, top scientists are recruited for the Kiryu project and shown Godzilla's bones. The film then jumps to 2003 as Kiryu is completed. Godzilla returns as Kiryu is activated for his first public demonstration.

Wow I did not know any of that! Especially the bolded part! That is very cool to learn!
Now I need to go re-watch the movie

[KaijuDuke]

That's incorrect. GxMG begins in 1999, and the opening scene of the film shows the JSDF's anti-monster unit completing the recovery of the original Godzilla's bones... they load their discovery into some military vehicles and move out. That night, Godzilla comes ashore at the exact same spot.

Shortly after Godzilla's rampage, top scientists are recruited for the Kiryu project and shown Godzilla's bones. The film then jumps to 2003 as Kiryu is completed. Godzilla returns as Kiryu is activated for his first public demonstration.

Wow I did not know any of that! Especially the bolded part! That is very cool to learn!
Now I need to go re-watch the movie

If that's true why would they recover Godzilla's bones at all if they weren't planning to build MechaG though? Was it just a happy coincidence that someone realized they could use their Goji remains to build a cyborg after Godzilla's first attack in decades?

Also, if Tokyo S.O.S. wasn't planned in advance as part of a duology, then the idea of Godzilla being drawn to the bones still doesn't add up (because as you said they were originally planning to do a Godzilla vs Mothra movie apparently rather than another Goji/MechaG film...Which is strange cuz I heard originally they were gonna have the sequel involve Godzilla, Mothra, and Titanosaurus instead, but cut Titan in favor of Mothra to cash in on her popularity).

[Godzillian]

^Can you source the titano thing?
It's possible that the bones were taken out of the bay simply to be studied by scientists with no intention of using them for a robot. I'm sure the bones of Godzilla would be a pretty tempting thing to study for the anti-kaiju force or any scientific field in general.

[kpa]

If that's true why would they recover Godzilla's bones at all if they weren't planning to build MechaG though?

In the timeline for the film, monsters have appeared/attacked multiple times. The JSDF has a special anti-kaiju unit, and the government is keeping biological materials for study and to devise newer, more effective weaponry against the monsters. If Godzilla's remains were found it would have been invaluable for their purposes and certainly worth recovering.

Was it just a happy coincidence that someone realized they could use their Goji remains to build a cyborg after Godzilla's first attack in decades?

They were thinking along those lines already since it would have made an effective weapon against daikaiju. Once their top weapons proved ineffective against Godzilla they stepped up those plans.

Also, if Tokyo S.O.S. wasn't planned in advance as part of a duology,

TOKYO SOS was planned as a sequel to GxMG, but GxMG wasn't made with a sequel in mind. The Millennium Series was intended as a series of one-shot movies and, in any case, Toho has never planned the Godzilla films years in advance. They make a movie, and based on how it performs they decide what to do next. They've never made a Godzilla movie with the intent it would start a 2 or 3 part story.

then the idea of Godzilla being drawn to the bones still doesn't add up

Sure it does, but the idea was expanded on in TOKYO SOS. In GxMG, Godzilla first attacks on the day the bones are recovered, and he surfaces at the same area where the bones are brought ashore. He doesn't appear again until Kiryu is put into action. When he is confronted by Kiryu he doesn't attack but instead stands still while Kiryu attacks him, then turn around and leaves. Godzilla's actions are motivated by the bones/Kiryu.

When Masaaki Tezuka had his idea for a sequel, he fleshed out what was in GxMG by stating that Godzilla is angered by the disrespect of his ancestor's remains.

(because as you said they were originally planning to do a Godzilla vs Mothra movie apparently rather than another Goji/MechaG film...Which is strange cuz I heard originally they were gonna have the sequel involve Godzilla, Mothra, and Titanosaurus instead, but cut Titan in favor of Mothra to cash in on her popularity).

Masaaki Tezuka and Shogo Tomiyama were both interviewed in the months before TOKYO SOS' release. I've met both of them, and am friends with people who worked on the films like Shinichi Wakasa and Tsutomu Kitagawa. I've never heard anything from them about plans to bring Titanosaurus... the monster isn't that popular in Japan and Toho was trying to stick to their biggest draws at that time. That's why they kept using Mothra, King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla, why Angilas and Varan got bumped from GMK, and Kamoebas was just a cameo as a corpse in TOKYO SOS. I can't imagine they were thinking Titanosaurus would be bring in the audience they wanted.

[Godzilla Lover101]

I can't imagine they were thinking Titanosaurus would be bring in the audience they wanted.

Still would have been cool to see a monster from the original series revived after decades.

[Desghidorah]

Either he went into hibernation to try and recover from the injuries he sustains (note this Godzilla doesn't seem to have the amped up healing factor the others did, i.e. he still having that scar) or died from his wounds..... Or he was asleep for about a decade before getting a call from Legendary pictures about what Japan did with those kaiju samples

[three]

at the end of the movie? dumped into the ocean to sleep again.

[GodzillaFan1992]

I could be wrong, but I heard from somewhere that Godzilla was confirmed to be dead.

[edgaguirus]

Confirmed by whom? Godzilla looked weakened and defeated, but not dead.

[KaijuDuke]

Confirmed by whom? Godzilla looked weakened and defeated, but not dead.

agreed