GMK: Why so much love?

[TyrantGojira]

I think most fans like this movie because it best represents what Godzilla is about. They brought him back to his evil roots to represent the evils of mankind. And yes there are goofy moment in the movie, but what movie dosen't have those?

[eabaker]

Okay, this has been something that's bothered me for a while, and I genuinely want to know the answer from you guys. Why is GMK considered such a great movie? What about It do people love so much? I just can't understand the appeal of it. The story is ridiculous even by Godzilla standards (am I watching Revenge of Irys or a Godzilla movie?),

How so? What in the story merits ridicule? By drawing the comparison to G3, may I assume you're referring to the supernatural/mystical elements? Because those aren't ridiculous, just less sf and more fantasy than is typical for the series (although Mothra brought the mystical to Toho sf 40 years prior).

and I can't remember for the life of me any of the characters, because none of them were all that interesting.

I find General Tachibana and Yuri about as memorable and interesting as the typical leads in a kaiju flick. In the General's case, perhaps slightly more so. And a couple of the supporting performances from familiar Toho faces are entertaining.

I action scenes are okay, as are the special effects and the music, but the sheer amount of derailing of the monsters that had to be done in order to make this movie work is a slap to the face to the kaiju.

Well, that's not a criticism of the quality of the film.

Godzilla is completely altered, removing everything that made him who he was, in favor of some strange story about angry World War II veterans.

Except that the movie didn't remove anything, it simply added a new element. And I (a.) see nothing strange about the story, (b.) see nothing wrong with a script element being strange.

Baragon ditches his bestial origins to being an earth god,

True statement, but not a comment on the quality of the film.

and Ghidorah, who gets it the worst, goes from being a malevolent destroyer of civilizations into a generic dragon god. Really, movie? The worst part about this is that then the monsters had to wussified completely in order to make Godzilla look intimidating, which is just baaaaad.

Saying something is "baaaaad" does not actually equate to an argument. It is different, but different is not strictly bad.

But to me, the biggest flaws come near the end of the movie, represented by Ghidorah's demise, followed by Godzilla's death. They set up the guardian monsters as the only things that can beat Godzilla, but then at the end, they're all killed, so clearly that wasn't the case. Why set them up as the heroes of the story if you're just going to kill them all off? And then, in order to kill Godzilla, one of the guys swims into Godzilla's mouth, and fires a drill into his shoulder, which causes Godzilla to blow himself up with his nuclear breath. ... really? Did the director think that part through?

Even the most fierce defenders of the movie acknowledge that it falls apart to some degree in the third act. Lots of movies get by on the strengths of certain elements, despite the weakness of other elements.

Anyways, onto my question: Why is GMK so much more beloved than, say, Final Wars? Once you strip away GMK's fancier special effects and slightly less ridiculous story, they have the exact same problems at heart: Godzilla is too overpowered,

This is sooo far down on the list of problems with Final Wars.

his opponents, are way too underpowered,

As is this.

and the human characters are forgettable.

And I wouldn't say this about either movie.

So PLEASE, someone, tell me: WHY is GMK considered such a great Godzilla movie?

Well, because of a few things you mentioned here (good fight scenes, improved spfx), as well as some things you either didn't acknowledge, or treated as weaknesses. Thematically, it's one of the richest Godzilla films of recent years, it brings an interesting new concept to the table (spirits of the war dead), some of the character work is quite good, the cinematography is easily the best the series has seen since the 1970s, and there are a number of little moments (mostly involving Godzilla himself) that are both disturbing and beautiful.

[Dust_pan]

Yeah, but mystical elements just don't fit the Godzilla series for the most part. I don't particularly like Mothra in general BECAUSE she feels too fantasy-ish.

How do mystical elements not fit into the Godzilla series, exactly?

And as long as giant monsters and anti-monster weapons are impossible, Godzilla will always be a fantasy series.

Okay, I remember the general to an extent, solely because he's the guy who went into Godzilla's mouth and killed him. I literally cannot remember anyone else.

Well then that's your problem. I thought the characters were all fairly memorable for a Godzilla film. They had notable personalities and they did quite a bit of work in the film's story.

Sure it is. If someone made a movie of a book and every character was acting out-of-character, you'd best believe that people would be angry. Same thing here with Godzilla and the others.

Just because an idea is unpopular with people doesn't always mean that it's a bad idea. I don't give a shit about how much they change Godzilla or any other famous characters. As long as the story is good and the characters are handled well, I'm totally fine with it.

I don't dislike the 1998 Godzilla film because the monster wasn't like Godzilla. I dislike it because it was a sucky movie.

The ghost idea is completely idiotic. Why would the ghosts possess Godzilla, and destroy their own homeland?

Unreasonable rage and vengeance can push a lot of people to do extreme things. Especially when they have a destructive giant monster to use.

And if I remember correctly, weren't those spirits supposed to be the ghosts of people who were killed by or because of the Japanese army? If that's the case, then it makes plenty of sense to me.

Okay, fine. You want to hear my argument against the monsters being wussified? It's EXACTLY what they did in Final Wars. They weakened the monsters severely and made them incredibly easy to defeat, in order to show that Godzilla was an all-powerful force of destruction. Seems bad, but sit down and look at this movie. So what did they do here? They weakened Godzilla's opponent's severely and made them incredibly easy to defeat to show that Gdozilla was an all-powerful force of destruction.

The monsters in GFW were just mindless beasts that everyone WANTED Godzilla to kill. The guardian monsters in GMK were underdog heroes that everyone rooted for. Big difference. And at least the guardians didn't die in only a few seconds. They actually put up a fight.

[JGAR]

Its by far one of the Best, sorry Corzak.

[Ligerzilla2014]

Its by far one of the Best, sorry Corzak.

I guess I'm a lone wolf on this. Oh well. To each his own, I guess. But may I ask you, what do you enjoy about the movie? What makes you consider it one of the best?

Gorgeous Godzilla suit, even better Baragon suit, pretty good cinematography, nice blend of special effects, good monster fights, Godzilla is evil again, good musical score, and a decent story. All of this stands out even more when you look at the movies surrounding this film.

[eabaker]

And if I remember correctly, weren't those spirits supposed to be the ghosts of people who were killed by or because of the Japanese army? If that's the case, then it makes plenty of sense to me.

Yes, they're the spirits of all the war dead (Japanese and otherwise) from the Pacific front. Basically, everyone who died as a result of the aggression of the Japanese leadership.

And, like most vengeful spirits, they're not exactly rational.

Sure it is. If someone made a movie of a book and every character was acting out-of-character, you'd best believe that people would be angry. Same thing here with Godzilla and the others.

People might be angry, but it wouldn't actually constitute bad filmmaking, just unfaithful adaptation. The movie, in and of itself, could still be excellent.

And I disagree with the cinematography statement, as plenty of the Heisei movies and the Kiryu movies had some pretty impressive shots too.

The Kiryu movies and most of the Heisei movies are noted for having extremely bland, flat lighting. The human drama in Okawara's Heisei movies tends to rely on very simplistic, medium-shot dominated sequences (though he had a few clever moments here and there, and showed great improvement in G2K, a fact which is largely attributable to his greater comfort in the wider aspect ratio), and I can't think of a single dynamic composition in any of the human scenes in either Kiryu flick.

[Dust_pan]

The guy who made this movie clearly still had his Gamera movies on the brains. The sheer amount of fantasy elements feel extremely out-of-place for a Godzilla movie. To me, the guardian monsters aren't the problem so much as it is what Gdozilla became in this movie,. He's basically a giant zombie! Why not just have it that a new Godzilla came out, or that the original completely healed after the oxygen destroyer bested him?

I do think that that would have been a better idea. But the ghosts still worked for the film's premise, whether you liked them or not.

The only thing that I didn't like about the ghosts was that the movie didn't really explore their part of the story much. They apparently wanted revenge on Japan and so they possessed Godzilla's body and... that's about it. After only a short while it felt like the ghosts were just completely forgotten.

Fantasy and Sci-fi are similar, but they have different tropes in them. Godzilla is primarily Sci-fi, so something like this is extremely jarring and feels out-of-place with the rest of the franchise.

When sci-fi is taken to completely ridiculous levels, as in the Godzilla films, I consider it fantasy. Because that's what it is.

Well, he's the only one I remember because he's the only one who did anything noteworthy. Normally, if I like a character I'd remember them. But I can't remember any of them.

A matter of opinion, then. There are plenty of popular/famous characters that I wind up forgetting/not caring for.

If someone has a bad idea and no one likes, it's still a bad idea.

"HEY GUYS!!! LET'S ALL KILL OURSELVES BY JUMPING OFF THIS THOUSAND-FT TALL CLIFF!!!"
"OH MY GOD LET'S DO IT! IT'LL BE SO AWESOME!"
"I AGREE!"
"Um, Guys, I don't think that's a very sensible thing to do."
"SHUT UP AND JUMP! WE'RE RIGHT BECAUSE WE OUTVOTE YOU!"

Yeah, except that any rooting you do is ultimately in vain, since Godzilla completely obliterates every single one of them. For characters toted as the heroes of the movie, all they ultimately did was get killed by Godzilla to show off how powerful he was.

Many heroes have died in battle for a cause. The guardian monsters were no different from them, in that sense. And besides, they still got together in the end to help take down Godzilla.

[JGAR]

Its by far one of the Best, sorry Corzak.

I guess I'm a lone wolf on this. Oh well. To each his own, I guess. But may I ask you, what do you enjoy about the movie? What makes you consider it one of the best?

Well, the story yes its a bit ridiculous but doesn't it is the same with every other Godzilla movie? All I felt throughout the first half was nothing but suspension rising and kept into the story while characters were developing. I can promise you, whenever I think of a Godzilla character, Yuki is among one of the top ones that come to mind (not the top one, but one). I can tell you that this film's characters were NOT forgettable, each one served a purpose in the Story, with the exception of some supporting characters.

Aside from the impressive visuals and special effects, I love how they handled Godzilla in this movie. He being a metaphor for the dead soldiers of WW2 served as an allegory of forgetting our errors and mistakes, only to repeat them. Like in the 1954, he was brought back as an evil merciless punishment, though his death was something I really hate, becuase we didn't feel emotions for Godzilla. Being evil is not the reason, otherwise why did we cry for him in Gojira? They could've worked on that a bit more.

Among the negatives of this film, Toho just had to ruin part of the film by forcing Ghidorah and Mothra as Guardian Monsters and replacing Varan and Anguirus. This, like you said, disrespected Ghidorah's role as the franchise's Principal Villain, that's like putting the Joker as a cop who chases down Batman.

[Dust_pan]

Among the negatives of this film, Toho just had to ruin part of the film by forcing Ghidorah and Mothra as Guardian Monsters and replacing Varan and Anguirus. This, like you said, disrespected Ghidorah's role as the franchise's Principal Villain, that's like putting the Joker as a cop who chases down Batman.

That is only a personal opinion. It does not affect the quality of the film at all.

In fact, I like GMK Ghidorah.

[Demon Lord Gira]

My my my, isn't this a little one-sided? I will agree, I enjoy GMK, but even I see that it has some flaws to it. As a movie, it's good... but as a GODZILLA movie... erm. Corzak does bring up a lot of valid points about this move. To me, it's more like a bad Godzilla fanfict than something you'd expect from the series. Possessed by the souls of those who died in the Pacific War? Ghidorah as a good guy that is pathetically weak? yeah... there's some problems here, people. Now, I still see it better than the likes of GxM and FW... but still. as for "no dynamic human scenes in Kiryu movies"... WHAT?!? I didn't find those movies to be boring as hell... I actually enjoy them the most out of all the Millenium series BECAUSE they focus more on the humans and try to balance between Godzilla action and th ehuman plot. The scene with Akane and the little girl talking about death especially still stick out in my mind. Not so much for GMK...

[eabaker]

as for "no dynamic human scenes in Kiryu movies"... WHAT?!? I didn't find those movies to be boring as hell... I actually enjoy them the most out of all the Millenium series BECAUSE they focus more on the humans and try to balance between Godzilla action and th ehuman plot. The scene with Akane and the little girl talking about death especially still stick out in my mind. Not so much for GMK...

The point was that there is no dynamic photography to the human scenes in the Kiryu movies. The lighting, the compositions, and the cutting never rise above the level of functional.

That said, those movies totally put me to sleep due to what I find to be dullness in all aspects of their execution. Yes, conceptually the balance between human and monster elements is good - on paper they seem like they should be above-average Godzilla flicks. But in practice, almsot none of that potential is realized.

[eabaker]

and I can't think of a single dynamic composition in any of the human scenes in either Kiryu flick.

This statement couldn't be more wrong. The human characters in the Kiryu movies are some of the best in the whole franchise. Hell, I felt more for the damn ROBOT than anyone in GMK.

And this has exactly what to do with photography?

[eabaker]

This statement couldn't be more wrong. The human characters in the Kiryu movies are some of the best in the whole franchise. Hell, I felt more for the damn ROBOT than anyone in GMK.

And this has exactly what to do with photography?

Nothing. Why does photography matter at all? If the movie's good, the movie's good.

A.) Photography matters because you were responding to a statement about photography. You just changed the subject completely and phrased it as a reply.

B.) Photography is a huge element of what makes a movie good or bad, albeit in ways that most of the audience is nto conscious of.

[Dust_pan]

My my my, isn't this a little one-sided? I will agree, I enjoy GMK, but even I see that it has some flaws to it. As a movie, it's good... but as a GODZILLA movie... erm. Corzak does bring up a lot of valid points about this move. To me, it's more like a bad Godzilla fanfict than something you'd expect from the series. Possessed by the souls of those who died in the Pacific War? Ghidorah as a good guy that is pathetically weak? yeah... there's some problems here, people.

Again, those points are all just personal opinions.

I LIKE GMK Ghidorah, and the underdog qualities of the guardian monsters, and the use of mystical elements in the story (Even though they aren't utilized to their fullest).

So Warhammer 40K is fantasy and not Sci-Fi because it has demons?

I don't know anything about Warhammer. Except that it apparently has demons in it.

Completely irrelevant statement. You implied that the underdog idea can be good, and I said that isn't necessarily true. Where did this come from?

You said that if an idea isn't liked by everyone, then it is a bad idea. I think my little cliff-jumping thing is a relevant response.

Sure, they've died, but they don't usually completely fail at their entire purpose at existing. Usually they do SOMETHING important before they die. What did any of the guardians do?

As far as I can tell, nothing against Godzilla. But their roles are what set them apart from the GFW monsters. The guardian monsters are treated as tenacious defenders and martyrs for a cause. The GFW monsters are basically like the jackass victims of a slasher villain.

[eabaker]

But fancy shots aren't going to make a movie better just because they're better quality shots. Even with all its "cinematography", the movie itself still falls flat to me.

It's not about "fancy," it's about emotionally evocative. There is a tendancy to think of style and substance as two separate factors, but that's only the case in movies where style is misapplied, or where there is not sufficient substance on which to hang a style. Stylistic elements should mirror and enhance thematic and narrative elements, convey feelings and ideas that dialogue and events do not. Good photography absolutely does make a movie better, the same way that good dialogue, good performances, good production design, and good music do. Does that mean that a well-shot movie will therefore be a good movie? Absolutely not. Does that mean that a movie where the photography complements the narrative will work for everyone? No. You dislike the movie's substance, and thus photography that suits that substance will not improve the movie for you.

But it is good photography which suits the narrative well, and thus enhances the experience of watching the movie - again, for most of the audience, subconsciously.

You asked why other people like the movie? Cinematography is one of the factors.

[Tohosaurus]

If this is stuff that's already been said, sorry!

The story is ridiculous even by Godzilla standards (am I watching Revenge of Irys or a Godzilla movie?), and I can't remember for the life of me any of the characters, because none of them were all that interesting.

Not really. It's a more fantasy/supernatural Godzilla origin, and that's about it. We've had ancient monsters before in Godzilla movies. I'm not sure what about this is more off-putting. The spirits within Godzilla? Biollante had a spirit subplot to it too, just one compared to many in GMK. Gamera 3 did not introduce the first supernatural monster origin, and despite both being directed by Kaneko I can't think of many similarities in either aside from the darker tone of the film and said supernatural elements to the monsters' stories and goals.

That aside, I would agree with you that characters aren't a notable part of those film, and would be part of the downsides IMO. But daikaiju films are hardly known for this, and few do it very well.

I action scenes are okay, as are the special effects and the music, but the sheer amount of derailing of the monsters that had to be done in order to make this movie work is a slap to the face to the kaiju. Godzilla is completely altered, removing everything that made him who he was, in favor of some strange story about angry World War II veterans. Baragon ditches his bestial origins to being an earth god, and Ghidorah, who gets it the worst, goes from being a malevolent destroyer of civilizations into a generic dragon god. Really, movie? The worst part about this is that then the monsters had to wussified completely in order to make Godzilla look intimidating, which is just baaaaad.

Ironically, my position on GMK has been high praise yet dislike for KG taking a dive in grandeur and strength relative to Godzilla. Baragon lost his fire breath but otherwise was fine. It's not like Baragon had a great origin story in FCtW back in the 1960s that should have never been touched. Mothra already was often regarded as a protector with some fantasy aspects so that was fine (and I think the best Mothra design). It's really KG that to me was the error in size and power; yes, KG was not fully grown (I think, it's been a while lol) but I digress. Baragon in the Showa era would surely stand little or no chance against Godzilla, and the same was true for the GMK interpretation of the monsters. Mothra and KG are a better argument.

But to me, the biggest flaws come near the end of the movie, represented by Ghidorah's demise, followed by Godzilla's death. They set up the guardian monsters as the only things that can beat Godzilla, but then at the end, they're all killed, so clearly that wasn't the case. Why set them up as the heroes of the story if you're just going to kill them all off? And then, in order to kill Godzilla, one of the guys swims into Godzilla's mouth, and fires a drill into his shoulder, which causes Godzilla to blow himself up with his nuclear breath. ... really? Did the director think that part through?

That could be more of a dialogue thing, like the hope of the characters, not necessarily a fact. It'd be more like a surprise, I suppose not unlike the results of Godzilla versus two Mothra larvae back in the 1960s. The hole made perfectly fine sense to me, taking advantage of an opportunity afforded by KG.

Anyways, onto my question: Why is GMK so much more beloved than, say, Final Wars? Once you strip away GMK's fancier special effects and slightly less ridiculous story, they have the exact same problems at heart: Godzilla is too overpowered, his opponents, are way too underpowered, and the human characters are forgettable. So PLEASE, someone, tell me: WHY is GMK considered such a great Godzilla movie?

Detail, the improvement in effects, the story, etc. There are many things about GMK that I like. The spirit aspect of Godzilla's makeup was a different direction than what we had before, but I think within the movie it worked just fine. Kaneko had a new origin with 1995's Gamera: The Guardian of the Universe, taking Gamera from a prehistoric animal to a creation of a lost civilization. It worked there as well. Changes in the origin of a character can work if they're sensible and done right (obviously highly debatable).

As a film, my opinion is that GFW tried to do too much. In a movie that's about the monsters just as much if not more than the people in the movie, the balance might be a bit trickier. For example, Cloverfield didn't have this complexity since, although it's a monster movie about a monster showing up, it's centered around the people. Godzilla movies are not (or arguably should not) be set up that way, at least if it minimizes how much of the "monster action" that the audience can view. GFW had a LOT going on with the human, mutant, and alien parts of the story. The main character and his Keizer superpower was incredibly rushed with almost no backstory to the character, and there was potential there. Don Fry is the only character highlight. I have problems with a number of the monsters personally, and the battles between Godzilla and all but Monster X/Keizer Ghidorah were quick and in some cases elicit a "What?", such as the Godzilla versus Kumonga scene. I didn't think the score fit either, for what that's worth. It just tried to do so much and 125 minutes was insufficient to do much with anything there. GMK is a far superior film IMO, but that is just my opinion at the end of the day.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Because GMK is by far the most impressive and well-rounded Godzilla film since the Showa era.

Everything that I enjoy about Godzilla films is here. The characters are relatable yet interesting, the story has enough mystery and intrigue going on to keep it from getting stale, the monster designs are unique but great to see (especially Godzilla and Mothra), the music is suspenseful and atmospheric, the fight scenes are some of the best I've ever seen in a kaiju film (especially Godzilla vs. Baragon) and there is a genuine sense of love, heart and care put into this work that I appreciate everything that Kaneko is his fellow filmmakers did with this film.

Is Godzilla overpowered? Are the Guardian monsters weak? Maybe, but I don't particularly care. You can have overpowered or underpowered monsters and still have a well-made and awesome monster fight. Look at Godzilla vs. Baragon. There is no way that Baragon compares to Godzilla. No chance in hell that Baragon could do anything to Godzilla...and yet the fight is still great. The absolute power of a monster really only shows up in Fantasy Matches, not overall enjoyment. If we were going by absolute power, then Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla and Rebirth Of Mothra 3 would have the best monster battles...except that most of their battles suck.

As for comparing GMK to GFW, here's the thing that sets the two films apart: You can tell that Kaneko cared for Godzilla and his friends. They are the central focus of the film, there are scenes devoted specifically to them, there is a deep and enriching atmosphere that is unique to a post-Godzilla '54 world and the battles are fleshed out and all different from one another. Kaneko respects the characters in GMK. And for that, I can respect Kaneko and GMK.

Kitamura, on the other hand, has no respect for Godzilla in GFW. In a film that is over two-hours long, and is the 50th anniversary "celebration" of Godzilla, there is only 12 minutes of screen time for Godzilla. The monsters are shoved aside so that Kitamura can tell his own story, which happens to look and feel a lot like a Matrix rip-off. That paints the image to look like Kitamura doesn't care at all about Godzilla and would have ultimately thrown him out of the film entirely if he could have. As such, I have zero respect for Kitamura and GFW.

[20th Century Boy]

I didn't like that chick getting smashed in the hospital though. She was already messed up in traction and on top of that, had really messed up teeth. Poor thing.

I thought that was great dark humor. You're shocked by her death, but you're also laughing at the absurdity of the situation. I love it when movies do that--it's not such a black and white scene (i.e. only laughter or only disturbing).

[eabaker]

I didn't like that chick getting smashed in the hospital though. She was already messed up in traction and on top of that, had really messed up teeth. Poor thing.

I thought that was great dark humor. You're shocked by her death, but you're also laughing at the absurdity of the situation. I love it when movies do that--it's not such a black and white scene (i.e. only laughter or only disturbing).

Back around 2002, I had an extensive email debate with J.D. Lees about that scene; he thought it was terribly ill-conceived, and I thought it was a brilliant bait-and-switch.

Actually, I think that argument may ahve been the proverbial straw that broke the back of my relationship with colelctive Godzilla fandom (wow, that was an awkward bit of metaphor), a break which has only begun to mend over the last year or so, since I joined TK.

Oh, controversial GMK, you had such power...

[Dust_pan]

I didn't like that chick getting smashed in the hospital though. She was already messed up in traction and on top of that, had really messed up teeth. Poor thing.

I thought that was great dark humor. You're shocked by her death, but you're also laughing at the absurdity of the situation. I love it when movies do that--it's not such a black and white scene (i.e. only laughter or only disturbing).

It depends on the person. I wasn't laughing. I was cringing and somewhat horrified.