Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

[Goji]

I do not have fond memories of the English dub of KKvG I saw when I was 5.

And how long ago was that, exactly?

Plus King Kong isn't a monster that should be fighting Godzilla, they don't go together IMO.

How is it that two of the most iconic monsters ever put on film "don't go together"?

Plus having Kong actually win that fight is still rather jarring to me.

Nah, it's just not what you wanted to happen, so you treat it as a negative, like so many other people.

And G'98 has Jean Reno. Fucking Jean Reno.

I like Jean, but I don't see how his presence suddenly negates all that's wrong with the movie; which is almost everything.

[SomeknowmeasXeno]

^
1. 11 Years ago.

2. King Kong is a prehistoric giant ape with no special powers that likes human women and just wants to live in peace. An animal. Godzilla is an irradiated dinosaur that can fire an atomic laser from his mouth and is either a metaphor for humanity's sins against nature or a noble defender of Earth, sometimes both. Godzilla is a sentiant being. Two different kinds of movie monsters.

3. In all logical conclusions King Kong should be but cannon fodder to Godzilla, even early Showa Godzilla who is one of the weaker incarnations. Kong dies to machine gun fire, Godzilla takes lasers and tank shots and the best they do is tickle him. Kong won because the plot demanded it, not because he was stronger than Godzilla in any way.

4. I never said his presence negates anything wrong with G'98. G'98 is a bad film and a terrible Godzilla film, goes without saying. KKvG is a much better film, a well-made film for the time. I just enjoy G'98 more. I know it's bad, I know KKvG is the superior film, but that doesn't mean I can't have more fun watching G'98 than KKvG. Jean is an added bonus.

[Goji]

I was just going by your "Fucking Jean Reno" comment, as it was the only thing indicating your preference for one over the other.

The "Kong should be no match for Godzilla" position is so silly when you consider that Kong was beefed up for this movie so he could battle Godzilla. It was the only way it could work. Yes, the original incarnation of Kong from '33 would be no match for even something like Godzilla '54, but..who the hell cares? What does that have to do with what's presented in the movie? Take it for what it is, and just enjoy the damn thing. Even if Toho says that Kong took the crown, the movie presents it as more of a tie, so I don't understand why this is such a never ending source of butthurt for so many people.

And if KKvG wasn't able to entertain you at the age of 5, then I really don't know what else to say. In fact, I sorta feel sorry for you.

[SomeknowmeasXeno]

I'm not going to argue with you over our preference in film, that I'm not, I've been informed it is a fruitless venture, that I have. But I will state that find no enjoyment in KKvG, I'm not the biggest fan of the Showa era to begin with, and any mature individual would respect one's opinion on such a subject and leave it be, without snide comments to the age at which one views a piece of media. Kids are smarter than most would admit, I had the good fortune to be able to decern movie quality to at least a small degree: indeed I could tell how Alien 3 was not as good as Alien or Aliens at that age, yes I could. I've also gone through the Showa era, as I have the Heisei and Millenium eras, many times over the years and KKvG still stands to me as the weakest entry in that era. Now, I hope this brings an end to this little tangent of ours so the good people here can get back to the topic at hand, that would be best.

[Goji]

Well, you're just now admitting that you're not a 'Showa guy', so that's news to me.

As for Final Wars? It's still terrible.

[Great Hierophant]

A fan edit of FW that cuts down the human chase and fighting scenes would make the film a lot more tolerable.

[godzillalives88]

Watched this last night.

GFW's probably the Godzilla film I'm the least familiar with in that I've seen it about 3 times in 12 years.

Anyway, for all the controversy over its clashing elements, I found the movie to be more overlong than anything else.

It's also less a "Destroy All Monsters" remake, and more of a "Chosen One" story with kaiju in it. I could see why that would be a poor choice for Godzilla's 50th, but removed from that hype, it's a somewhat unique entry in the franchise (in that I can't think of another occurrence of that type of narrative).

It's also kinda fascinating in that that virtually NOTHING in the film is relatable. Seriously, the lead character is a half-mutant, who's adept at martial arts and looks like a model. The villain, and supporting characters have a mostly similar aesthetic. The film takes place in a vaguely futuristic earth, that's really not identifiable at all, save for the occasional landmark. I don't know whether this is a weakness or a strength, but I DO think it's a big reason for the fim's divisiveness. Conversely, as someone who's susceptible to "mood" films, I could see this having appeal for some people because of its weirdness.

Again, viewing this a "Chosen One" film and not "Godzilla's 50th" also makes Godzilla's role in the movie a lot more palatable. He's basically a grunt assigned to take out the main villain's henchman. To that end, I've never really objected to the length of the fights, as it befits his role and frankly comes with the territory when you have so many monsters. However, as compensation (and to help with the overall pace), Ozaki's fights should have probably been reduced a bit. The film literally stops cold whenever there's a mutant fight, and they go on for much too long.

There's also some moments that are unquestionably half-assed, like Akira Takarada's return in the 3rd act with the explanation that "somehow I managed to escape."

Overall though, the climate around this movie is such that every time I watch it, I feel like I should be having a strong (probably negative) reaction when I just end up apathetic while enjoying some parts. It's also a little ridiculous that people who like GFW always seem to preface that statement with an apology. I might not totally feel that way but I CAN see why they would.

[SomeknowmeasXeno]

^ I feel no need to apologise for liking FW, it's my favourite Godzilla film out of 'em all. I understand why it's divisive, I understand why people might not like it but I don't feel the need to apologise for genuinely loving the film

[godzillalives88]

^ I feel no need to apologise for liking FW, it's my favourite Godzilla film out of 'em all. I understand why it's divisive, I understand why people might not like it but I don't feel the need to apologise for genuinely loving the film

Nor should you. I only made that comment after skimming this board (and others) and seeing a lot of "Look, I know it has its problems, but I...." type defenses.

[SomeknowmeasXeno]

^ I feel no need to apologise for liking FW, it's my favourite Godzilla film out of 'em all. I understand why it's divisive, I understand why people might not like it but I don't feel the need to apologise for genuinely loving the film

Nor should you. I only made that comment after skimming this board (and others) and seeing a lot of "Look, I know it has it's problem, but I...." type defenses.

Every film/game/book/music piece has problems, it's inevitable, and media entertainment is subjective anyway. I agree with you though that people shouldn't have to apologise for liking something: if you enjoy a piece of media you shouldn't have to apologise for it. For example I love the Shadow the Hedgehog game, it's a bad game and has mostly bad game design, but that doesn't mean I'll apologise for liking ShTH: even if I'm a game designer myself and should know better. Entertainment is subjective and people shouldn't ever have to feel the need to apologise for liking something. It's a bad stigma surrounding media entertainment.

[eabaker]

It's also less a "Destroy All Monsters" remake, and more of a "Chosen One" story with kaiju in it. I could see why that would be a poor choice for Godzilla's 50th, but removed from that hype, it's a somewhat unique entry in the franchise (in that I can't think of another occurrence of that type of narrative).

The problem, for me, is that the "Chosen One" story feels so disconnected from Godzilla that they don't really feel like they belong to the same movie. I think part of that is inevitable (and entirely forgivable in a one-off experiment), but part of it stems from Kitamura's lack of investment in Godzilla as a character, and that general sense actively grates on me.

[g2vd]

1. 11 Years ago.

Not trying to bring anything up.

But you watched the movie 11 Years Ago when you were five! how can you honestly go on you're 5 Year Old Self's opinion when you likely barely remember it? let alone the fact you are going on you're 5 year old self's opinion.

yes Final Godzilla is less 'heroic' than Godzilla 90s,

When was Heisei ever heroic?

Also I still find it funny how Godzilla's Heat Beam failed to melt even a single inch of ice when he fired it on the ground at the South Pole.

[SomeknowmeasXeno]

1. 11 Years ago.

Not trying to bring anything up.

But you watched the movie 11 Years Ago when you were five! how can you honestly go on you're 5 Year Old Self's opinion when you likely barely remember it? let alone the fact you are going on you're 5 year old self's opinion.

yes Final Godzilla is less 'heroic' than Godzilla 90s,

When was Heisei ever heroic?

Also I still find it funny how Godzilla's Heat Beam failed to melt even a single inch of ice when he fired it on the ground at the South Pole.

Okay, okay, you've missed some things out. As I've stated in a previous message I've gone through the Showa (and the other two) era multiple times since then and with the multiple times I've viewed GvKK, one time of which was last year, I still think it is one of the weaker entries, if not the weakest entry, in the Showa era.

I'm not referring to Heisei. I'm referring to Godzilla 90s from the Vortaak trilogy fighting games. 90s was the Godzilla I was first introduced to and even to this day he's 'my' Godzilla. I actually thought Godzilla was a video game character and the 98 film was just a shitty adaption (which it is regardless) of the games, then I saw GvKK which was my first 'true' Godzilla film and the realization dawned on me. You're probably wondering what I thought the 90s and 2000 meant at the end of the two Godzilla's names then if I thought Godzilla was a video game franchise at first. I had Super Godzilla on the SNES as well, so I thought 90s was the Godzilla in Super and 2000 was the new 'incarnation' meant to be the poster boy of DAMM and any future games so they added the titles to keep both classic and modern Godzilla distinguished for the announcer. Never really liked 2000 actually. I like the film, not the design.

So yeah if I ever say Godzilla 90s in a comment then I'm referring to the Godzilla from the atari/pipeworks games.

[GalacticPetey]

The video games have no place when discussing the films though. When most people hear "Godzilla 90s" they're probably thinking about the 90s Godzilla films where's an anti-hero at best. It's just a little out of place and odd to be talking about video game Godzilla in a film discussion.

[SomeknowmeasXeno]

^ The first time I was comparing 90s to Final Godzilla, the other times I brought 90s up here was explaining I don't mean Heisei Godzilla when I say Godzilla 90s. I see them as two completely different Godzillas in power levels, abilities and moral alignment, and partially in design. g2vd thought I was referring to Heisei when I mentioned 90s, I was clearing that up for him.

[Goji]

That's still a distinction that's going to make no sense to most people. "Godzilla '90's", as seen in the Pipeworks games, is the Heisei Godzilla, regardless about how you personally feel about it. Like Galactic said, comparing things to the Pipeworks games has no place in any of the discussions about the actual films.

[godzillalives88]

I think part of that is inevitable (and entirely forgivable in a one-off experiment)

I think that's my semi-defense of the film: it's interesting as a one-off experiment. That doesn't mean the experiment was fully successful, or should be repeated again, but I can find some appreciation for the attempt. Also, my general view of the Godzilla series is that the longer it goes, the more Godzilla should be used to tell different types of stories. Likewise, I think that's why I'm not able to rise to anger with GFW, because the filmmakers DID incorporate a narrative-style that hadn't been previously done in the series (even if it had been done A LOT elsewhere).

[SomeknowmeasXeno]

That's still a distinction that's going to make no sense to most people. "Godzilla '90's", as seen in the Pipeworks games, is the Heisei Godzilla, regardless about how you personally feel about it. Like Galactic said, comparing things to the Pipeworks games has no place in any of the discussions about the actual films.

The Heisei era and Vortaak trilogy are two COMPLETELY different timelines/universes. 90s is meant to represent Heisei yes BUT 90s is a defender of Earth and as such humanity as well, Heisei was either indifferent to or hated humanity depending on the film and was like a territorial animal; 90s fought with a mix of martial arts and wrestling moves along with his unique physical traits such as his tail, Heisei loved to spam his beam attack, 90s was fast, Heisei was slow, Heisei was bulky, 90s was lean and thin, 90s power level was around Final Godzilla's power level which clearly outclasses Heisei's power level. They're not the same Godzilla. And Final Wars practically is a movie equivalent to the Vortaak trilogy games, they even had kaiju use moves straight from the games: and those moves were invented for the games. I wasn't even on a huge Pipeworks games tangent earlier! I was explaining why I liked Final Wars and I made brief reference to the games because Final Wars IS the closest thing to a movie adaptation of them and that's why I love it! I can't properly explain why I like FW without bringing up the Vortaak trilogy, and as an extent Godzilla 90s, because the film is a great reminder to me of my childhood with Godzilla and why he was one of my childhood heroes. The other time I brought up 90s was explaining to g2vd I don't mean Heisei when I say 90s. Now drop the subject and stop bothering me about it, I'm not explaining myself any further.

[Goji]

You brought it upon yourself, so telling me to "drop it" doesn't really make a lot of sense. But please, feel free to stay salty.

Again, it doesn't matter if you think they're "different Godzillas". G'90s is meant to represent the Heisei Godzilla in the Pipeworks games. End of story.

[eabaker]

I think part of that is inevitable (and entirely forgivable in a one-off experiment)

I think that's my semi-defense of the film: it's interesting as a one-off experiment. That doesn't mean the experiment was fully successful, or should be repeated again, but I can find some appreciation for the attempt. Also, my general view of the Godzilla series is that the longer it goes, the more Godzilla should be used to tell different types of stories. Likewise, I think that's why I'm not able to rise to anger with GFW, because the filmmakers DID incorporate a narrative-style that hadn't been previously done in the series (even if it had been done A LOT elsewhere).

Oh, I agree with all of that, absolutely. While there are aspects of Final Wars with which I find fault on an intellectual/analytical level, the things that keep me from liking the movie ultimately come down to a gut-level response to my personal experience of watching it. Tangible good and bad aspects combine into an intangible unpleasantness.