Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

[eabaker]

Yeah, and over-the-top badass doesn't really appeal to me, anyway. So he's doing a mediocre job at something I happen not to like anyway. Which kinda sums up most of the movie from my perspective.

[GalacticPetey]

This scene and line still makes me giggle though. Such a goofy line.

[edgaguirus]

His character happens to fall under the so bad it's funny label for many.

[Mechagigan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-_W6wHt0F4

This scene and line still makes me giggle though. Such a goofy line.

All it's missing is Gordon saying "Excellent!"

[Faelon]

In regards to the fights in FW:

I guess, and the human action definitely reinforces this, I always saw the whole thing as an extended action scene. Of course it isn't completely unbroken, but once Goji gets free it's pretty much one long "hallway fight" to the end. Those fights are just beats, not storylines.

Sure, there's a lot more to it than this but it reminds me much more of, say, The Raid than it does Gojira or even Megaguirus, in the abstract. This flick, like it or not, isn't really interested in dawdling or lingering over its scenes. I know people are going to say "Kitamura editing" but I guarantee most scenes in the script didn't last more than 5 pages max. This was always supposed to be a kind of...funhouse cart ride (with the music full-blast) through the wacky old days of Godzilla. The fights are brief by design; they don't want you to think about them, they want you to watch it and get a kick and say, "Dude, Kamacarus was cool!" or "Great to see Anguirus again!" and that's about it. As if, for entertainments sake, that isn't enough, but whatever.

Window dressing, random red-shirts, dudes in jumpsuits for James Bond to shoot at. Godzilla is the main attraction and always was, getting to see, say, King Seesar on screen again was a bonus, not the point. Bruce Lee is the star, it's just a novelty and bonus that he's kicking Chuck Norris in the head in one scene. Same here.

Personally, I love that they (mostly) bucked that trend of constantly needing to up the ante of who Godzilla will fight, what new kind of monster, what new kind of re-imagining of monsters past, what...Nah, they just pulled a Gary Oldman and said--https://youtu.be/MrTsuvykUZk

I think you summed up the goal that the filmakers had. I just can't escape the feeling that the execution fell flat. The entire thing was two busy. It had way too much going on that did not need to be there. The whole Matrixy human mutants plot and all their over choreographed overly contrived action sequences is a good example of "why is this in a Godzilla Movie"?!?!?! The result was some truly great individual scenes, especially with some of the Kaiju fights. Melded with some completely distracting mutant X Men Matrix scenes that feel like they were from another movie that just got spliced in. The monster foes ranged from the fantastic of Gigan to some really really bad "oh god we ran out of money" level CGI, and a final boss that looks like he belonged ina Power Rangers Episode.

All of this was especially jarring to the viewers after they had just experienced the fairly tight, clean, well scripted, Military vs Monster stories of Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla and Godzilla Tokyo SOS.

Final Wars isn't the worst Godzilla by far. But it was a promia=nant place on the list of the weirdest.

[Mechagigan]

I like the idea of the humans having legitimate action scenes alongside the monster's action scenes, but it wasn't done as well as it could've been in FW. Try again with stronger characters and a more thought-out story, and it'd probably work pretty well.

I feel like the not-Matrix style to the movie is one of the things that drags it down, or at least something I don't really like about it. The significant hues (in this case, blue and gray), the grainy quality, the over-exposed lighting... it could work, if the movie made sense with it, but in FW's case something more GMK or G2K-esque would've worked better (at least for the human scenes, the monster stuff looked pretty good).

[daveblackeye15]

Oh yeah the reason why I like Captain Gordon are...

-Main character is just boring. Gordon is just full of arrogant over the top personality so he sticks out more even if his acting is bad. While Ozaki is going on and on about 'choices and crap' Gordon knows exactly his needs and wants.
-Gordon is older, nearly 40, and just a normal guy full of grit surrounded by a lot of younger people with super powers. He's not ugly but he's not a pretty boy either. In a way he's the persistent underdog and represents the normal guy being replaced by younger supermen and superwomen but sheer experience lets him keep up for a little longer.

So really there's not a lot of human characters that super stick out for me in Godzilla movies unless they're well written or over the top. So I let Gordon into the side of Godzilla bad asses with Colonel Gondo from Biollante, Admiral Taizo from GMK, Akane from Megaurius and Tsujimori from Against Mechagodzilla.

[Tohosaurus]

I like the idea of the humans having legitimate action scenes alongside the monster's action scenes, but it wasn't done as well as it could've been in FW. Try again with stronger characters and a more thought-out story, and it'd probably work pretty well.

I feel like the not-Matrix style to the movie is one of the things that drags it down, or at least something I don't really like about it. The significant hues (in this case, blue and gray), the grainy quality, the over-exposed lighting... it could work, if the movie made sense with it, but in FW's case something more GMK or G2K-esque would've worked better (at least for the human scenes, the monster stuff looked pretty good).

The lighting is definitely a criticism of mine, as I personally think it visually cheapened what was a very expensive production. The black boat style of the Xiliens also seemed too much like Dark City, The Matrix, and Equilibrium. It's not bad, just a bit of a retread. As for the story, I think they could have dropped all the Kaiser and human-mutant subplots to keep things concise. Even doing that they'd still need to provide exposition for the mutant monsters (and how Godzilla's different), the Xiliens and their motives, plus Ozaki and Gordon with the supporting cast. There's still plenty going on for a two hour film and with more time for other story progress it would've turned out better that way. And I don't like the music either, which neither fit nor was a good successor to some of the other scores that the Millennium era had. Gigan's awakening was good, as was the retro music with Hedorah, but that's about it. Such a large number of minor, medium, and large scale oversights are what drag this down and cause people to (IMO) not see the things it does do well, and there are a few. Given its score on IMDb and Rotten Tomatoes, there are plenty of people who like it and I think for more casual audiences GFW is a two hour example of what people like the franchise is like on the whole: a hokey but obnoxiously filled with personality in a like or it hate it fashion.

Ironically, something like Pacific Rim has the big budget Hollywood look to it but to some is surely quite similar in most other regards. That's what the expectations are of this sub-genre within sci-fi/fantasy.

[KaijuFiend]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-_W6wHt0F4

This scene and line still makes me giggle though. Such a goofy line.

Funnily enough, I find this to be one of the scenes that drags the film down. Perhaps not so much the scene itself, but the fact that it sets itself up for a sting that is even more out-of-place than the rest of the soundtrack, and thus all the more awkward for it. Perhaps if the film tried to be more comedic, it might have worked better, but as-is, it just feels like "Oh I guess we're watching a sitcom now". It makes the film feel more disjointed than it already felt.

[tymon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-_W6wHt0F4

This scene and line still makes me giggle though. Such a goofy line.

A video like this reminds me why FW is, by far, my least watched G-film...

Shit ain't even a movie, it's a two hour music video with a thin narrative attached.

[Space Hunter M]

Shit ain't even a movie, it's a two hour music video with a thin narrative attached.

That's actually an interesting summation of Kitamura's style. All of the shitty filters in the regular versions kinda add to that.

[djkgoji]

My take on FW has always been that it's fast-paced and fun, just like the '70s films to which it's paying homage. Odd music, threadbare plotting, uneven (and sometimes genuinely bad) effects, with far too much focus on human characters about which I'm hard-pressed to care, but ultimately very enjoyable in spite of its flaws. Honestly, if it weren't a Godzilla movie, I probably wouldn't care for it very much. But it is a Godzilla movie, and enjoying bizarre, offbeat Godzilla films that probably wouldn't work on any level if they were part of any other franchise is something I've been doing since I was a kid.

What I will concede to the film's passionate detractors is that it should never have been the 50th Anniversary film. It should have been a lower budget, one-off '70s homage, marketed that way & sandwiched between GMK and the Kiryu films.

[KingKaiju]

So, after writing in this thread. I went back and rewatched it. My opinion stays the same, for the most part. But I do have to say, I do enjoy the majority of this soundtrack. It's upbeat and fast paced, which is cool. Also, Gigan waking up was real badass.

[Kaijugriffey]

My take on FW has always been that it's fast-paced and fun, just like the '70s films to which it's paying homage. Odd music, threadbare plotting, uneven (and sometimes genuinely bad) effects, with far too much focus on human characters about which I'm hard-pressed to care, but ultimately very enjoyable in spite of its flaws. Honestly, if it weren't a Godzilla movie, I probably wouldn't care for it very much. But it is a Godzilla movie, and enjoying bizarre, offbeat Godzilla films that probably wouldn't work on any level if they were part of any other franchise is something I've been doing since I was a kid.

What I will concede to the film's passionate detractors is that it should never have been the 50th Anniversary film. It should have been a lower budget, one-off '70s homage, marketed that way & sandwiched between GMK and the Kiryu films.

I will give it that, it is different. Which is often where Godzilla shines. GTTHM, is a good example of this. Or those that are so round the bend that they become fun like Hedora. But it never quite hits its marks. I think what bothers me the most about this one is it is a perfect teaching tool for editorial and film making restrain. There was so much possibly good in this one. But it is smothered and dense packed with the useless, the weird and the downright bad that it just becomes a hyperactive mess.

[g2vd]

I will give it that, it is different. Which is often where Godzilla shines. GTTHM, is a good example of this. Or those that are so round the bend that they become fun like Hedora. But it never quite hits its marks. I think what bothers me the most about this one is it is a perfect teaching tool for editorial and film making restrain.

Second best.

[eabaker]

As I've mentioned in previous comments, it seems like the clearest path to a redemptive reading of Final Wars is to look at it as a deconstructionist narrative. But, as I've also said, for all that's going on in the movie, I just don't see much to unpack. But this could well be a flaw in my own reading; perhaps my distaste for its style and tone is distracting me from the markers of its real meaning. So, I'm curious, are any of this movie's fans - or even ambivalent viewers or detractors who have studied it thoroughly - able and willing to provide an analysis?

Or am I just tripping for biscuits - or, perhaps a more appropriate phrase would be, "asking for an explanation of Cow Tools"?

Seriously, what is Final Wars about???

[Space Hunter M]

Seriously, what is Final Wars about???

I've wondered this, too. Other Millennium films had some sort of semi-clear motivation behind the storytelling. I find the lopsided, half-baked narrative fascinating really. It is tonally a very strange film. Every bout at telling a "serious" story is backed by some ridiculous, seemingly self-aware counterpoint. I tried to emphasize the ludicrous elements in Final Warriors 2004 with the talking monsters and silly DeWolfe cues.

[Goji]

Funny how Final Wars conversations seem to flip flop between this and the other thread. The film's supporters always have so much to say, but once the questions start, they go silent. Anybody else notice this phenomenon?

[szmigiel]

As I've mentioned in previous comments, it seems like the clearest path to a redemptive reading of Final Wars is to look at it as a deconstructionist narrative. But, as I've also said, for all that's going on in the movie, I just don't see much to unpack. But this could well be a flaw in my own reading; perhaps my distaste for its style and tone is distracting me from the markers of its real meaning. So, I'm curious, are any of this movie's fans - or even ambivalent viewers or detractors who have studied it thoroughly - able and willing to provide an analysis?

Or am I just tripping for biscuits - or, perhaps a more appropriate phrase would be, "asking for an explanation of Cow Tools"?

Seriously, what is Final Wars about???

Final Wars is a throwback to the Showa era, heavily influenced by the Champion Festival films of the 70’s. Which always had human action mixed with kaiju. The only thing it has in common with the Heisei films is borrowing concepts from western films.

Ryuhei Kitamura was up front to the type of Godzilla movie he wanted to make and Shogo Tomiyama was on board with it from day one.

[Goji]

^ The absolute perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Your response doesn't address anything that ebaker was asking about. Nothing.