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Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:03 pm
by Pkmatrix
I love this movie. There was a long stretch where this was my favorite movie, fullstop. It's easily my favorite of the Heisei Gamera films, although I'll admit G3 is probably a better movie in a bunch of areas. That said, G3 can't top the sheer fun and awesomeness of G2! :D

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:50 am
by tymon
^And neither can top the sheer fun and awesomeness of Guardian of the Universe. ;)

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:46 am
by EmperorGhidorah
tymon wrote:^And neither can top the sheer fun and awesomeness of Guardian of the Universe. ;)


Yeah except the special effects, fight scenes, and soundtrack of Gamera 3.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:48 am
by PopInPicsPresents
EmperorGhidorah wrote:
tymon wrote:^And neither can top the sheer fun and awesomeness of Guardian of the Universe. ;)


Yeah except the special effects, fight scenes, and soundtrack of Gamera 3.


Aside from the brief Air Battle, the battles with Super Gyaos and Legion both top the Heisei bump fest during 3.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:05 pm
by EmperorGhidorah
PopInPicsPresents wrote:
EmperorGhidorah wrote:
tymon wrote:^And neither can top the sheer fun and awesomeness of Guardian of the Universe. ;)


Yeah except the special effects, fight scenes, and soundtrack of Gamera 3.


Aside from the brief Air Battle, the battles with Super Gyaos and Legion both top the Heisei bump fest during 3.


Right because Gamera and Legion were clearly doing MUCH more. :roll:

I'm sorry, but the aerial battle between Gamera and Irys was much more spectacular than the battle between Gamera and Gyaos. Lands fights between Legion and Gamera weren't all that better than Gamera vs. Irys.

Gamera snipping the gyaos out of the sky was also very entertaining. The ending sequence with the legion of gyaos and a wounded Gamera preparing to fight them was riveting. Sorry, but when it comes to kaiju sequences in the Gamera Trilogy, G3 has the best all around quality.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:17 pm
by PopInPicsPresents
EmperorGhidorah wrote:Right because Gamera and Legion were clearly doing MUCH more. :roll:


Last I checked their entire final battle didn't consist of Legion and Gamera bumping into each other ;)


EmperorGhidorah wrote:I'm sorry, but the aerial battle between Gamera and Irys was much more spectacular than the battle between Gamera and Gyaos.


Not arguing that. If the final battle was half as good and exciting than I'm sure it would have been amazing.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:Lands fights between Legion and Gamera weren't all that better than Gamera vs. Irys.


But, it was better.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:Sorry, but when it comes to kaiju sequences in the Gamera Trilogy, G3 has the best all around quality.


Not what I was arguing, but yeah overall it has some of the best done kaiju scenes in film sans the final battle. It lacked all the energy and excitement from the previous scenes in the film as well as the final Battle with Super Gyaos.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:35 pm
by EmperorGhidorah
PopInPicsPresents wrote:Last I checked their entire final battle didn't consist of Legion and Gamera bumping into each other ;)


...And neither did Gamera and Irys's battle :huge:

Unless you count repeatedly impaling, ripping, and punching with flaming fists "bumping".

But, it was better.


Sure...but not by a whole lot.

Not what I was arguing, but yeah overall it has some of the best done kaiju scenes in film sans the final battle. It lacked all the energy and excitement from the previous scenes in the film as well as the final Battle with Super Gyaos.


Lacked the energy and excitement? Dude, that final battle with Irys was a lot more intense than the battle with Super Gyaos. There was a lot more to lose, iris was quite frankly a bigger threat, and the human characters involved with said battle had a role that was more than than playing spectators. You know, what the Scooby gang was during Gamera's battle with Super Gyaos.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:06 pm
by PopInPicsPresents
EmperorGhidorah wrote:...And neither did Gamera and Irys's battle :huge:

Unless you count repeatedly impaling, ripping, and punching with flaming fists "bumping".



Gamera gets impaled once. That's the only reasonably exciting thing to happen until he whips out the Plasma Fist.

Bumping was the wrong word. So my bad. What actually takes up a 3/4 of the final battle is Gamera and Irys being locked in a battle hug and pushing each other around until Irys knocks Gamera into the train station.


EmperorGhidorah wrote:Lacked the energy and excitement? Dude, that final battle with Irys was a lot more intense than the battle with Super Gyaos.


Here's a run down of the entire last battle in Kyoto:

>Irys touches down
>Gamera fires Plasma Balls
>Irys deflects Plasma Balls
>Gamera touches down
>Gamera an Irys stare at each other for about a minute and a half
>Gamera rushes Irys
>Battle Hug for 3 minutes
>Gamera gets impaled (while in battle hug)
>Irys knocks Gamera into train station (which knocks him out)
>Gamera wakes up after 7 minutes and grabs Ayana
>Gamera's hand gets impaled
>Gamera Falcon punches Irys


The only exciting aspect of that battle was the plasma fist. Everything else is something I'd expect from a Heisei Godzilla movie, not something out of the Gamera trilogy.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:There was a lot more to lose, iris was quite frankly a bigger threat,


That doesn't make the battle any more entertaining. If we're gonna talk a bigger threat and there being a lot left to lose look at Legion. She was a bigger threat overall and the final battle actually included the cast helping out.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:and the human characters involved with said battle had a role that was more than than playing spectators. You know, what the Scooby gang was during Gamera's battle with Super Gyaos.


They were essentially playing spectator in 3 too.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:51 pm
by EmperorGhidorah
PopInPicsPresents wrote:Gamera gets impaled once. That's the only reasonably exciting thing to happen until he whips out the Plasma Fist.

Bumping was the wrong word. So my bad. What actually takes up a 3/4 of the final battle is Gamera and Irys being locked in a battle hug and pushing each other around until Irys knocks Gamera into the train station.


Things like this appeared very often throughout the Gamera Trilogy fights.



Here's a run down of the entire last battle in Kyoto:

>Irys touches down
>Gamera fires Plasma Balls
>Irys deflects Plasma Balls
>Gamera touches down
>Gamera an Irys stare at each other for about a minute and a half
>Gamera rushes Irys
>Battle Hug for 3 minutes
>Gamera gets impaled (while in battle hug)
>Irys knocks Gamera into train station (which knocks him out)
>Gamera wakes up after 7 minutes and grabs Ayana
>Gamera's hand gets impaled
>Gamera Falcon punches Irys


The only exciting aspect of that battle was the plasma fist. Everything else is something I'd expect from a Heisei Godzilla movie, not something out of the Gamera trilogy.


DUDE

Gamera and Gyaos spent 90% of their time chasing after each other. On the ground, they got into a glorified slapping contest which was barely above the normal Heisei bumping matches.

Gamera and legion's first fight scene consisted entirely of Legion bumping, hugging, and beaming spamming. That...that is literally the very definition of Heisei Godzilla fights. Their second fight was filled with that same type of stuff.

Sure there was some "Gamera Trilogy Battle Spice" thrown in there but guess what? Gamera and Irys' Kyoto fight had that same type of spice. You know, when Gamera was repeatedly impaled, when he ripped up Irys' stomach, when he blew off his own hand, when he punched Irys into oblivion, etc.

Gamera's fight with Irys was no less spectacular than most of the Gamera Trilogy fights. It was filled with the same stuff that most Gamera fight scenes consist of, for Christ's sake.

That doesn't make the battle any more entertaining. If we're gonna talk a bigger threat and there being a lot left to lose look at Legion. She was a bigger threat overall and the final battle actually included the cast helping out.


Legion was a bigger threat to the world, sure. However, irys came just as close to killing Gamera as legion did.

They were essentially playing spectator in 3 too.


Let's see, the characters in G3:

- tried to protect Ayana as well as convince her that Gamera isn't the enemy, in an effort to thwart Irys's efforts at becoming stronger and killing Gamera.

- attacked Irys in order to try and kill him

That's doing a helluva lot more than flying around in a helicopter and watching two kaijus duke it out from a distance.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:41 pm
by Janjira54
Hey, I'm not trying to arm-chair mod here, but This could get you guys in trouble

Anyways, I rewatched G2 today, and boy, do I love this film

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:59 pm
by tymon
The only element of G3 that's superior to the first two is the FX. The story and battles are boring as poop, with the exception of the Gyaos scene downtown.

And saying the battle scenes in the Gamera trilogy are no better or any more physical than comparable Heisei Godzilla scenes...what? Are we watching different movies?

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:12 am
by Mr. Xeno
tymon wrote:The only element of G3 that's superior to the first two is the FX. The story and battles are boring as poop, with the exception of the Gyaos scene downtown.

There's no accounting for bad taste.

tymon wrote:And saying the battle scenes in the Gamera trilogy are no better or any more physical than comparable Heisei Godzilla scenes...what? Are we watching different movies?

The fight scenes in the Gamera trilogy are definitely some of the best daikaiju fights ever put to film, and, IMO, outclass EVERYTHING the Godzilla franchise has done.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:47 pm
by Kaiser
tymon wrote:The only element of G3 that's superior to the first two is the FX. The story and battles are boring as poop, with the exception of the Gyaos scene downtown.


I agree with the first part of this statement 100% but I don't think I'd go quite so far as to call the story and battles "boring" or anything else synonymous with the word. G3 is full of missed potential that comes primarily from trying to fit too many things in one movie that results in things being rushed and not explained fully. It's confusing and feels incomplete but it never really feels boring in the sense that kaiju movies from the same time period like SpaceGodzilla do.

G2 by contrast doesn't over-complicate things. It knows what story it's telling and Kaneko tells it well. It's easier to follow and feels more complete than G3 while avoiding some of the slow spots that occasionally pop up in G1.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:57 pm
by tymon
Mr. Xeno wrote:
tymon wrote:The only element of G3 that's superior to the first two is the FX. The story and battles are boring as poop, with the exception of the Gyaos scene downtown.

There's no accounting for bad taste.

I certainly hope you're not implying I have bad taste for finding G3 boring. If so...elaborate? For teh lulz at the very least?

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:52 pm
by EmperorGhidorah
tymon wrote:
Mr. Xeno wrote:
tymon wrote:The only element of G3 that's superior to the first two is the FX. The story and battles are boring as poop, with the exception of the Gyaos scene downtown.

There's no accounting for bad taste.

I certainly hope you're not implying I have bad taste for finding G3 boring. If so...wow.


Sorry but how are the battles in G3 inferior to the rest of the Gamera Trilogy battles?

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:28 pm
by tymon
^Cheorography, staging, editing, music...the way it was executed just puts me to sleep compared to the fights in the first two movies. Scaling back the action in favor of story and character is fine, obviously, but only when the stories and characters are interesting...

Sorry, I just don't get why this film is so highly regarded, aside from its amazing technical qualities. It seems like a movie I would have loved as a teenager because it's DARK'N'GRITTY and I could relate to AYANAS ANGST BRO. Now, I just laugh at how we're supposed to take any of this schlock seriously - much like the Heisei Godzilla movies, ironically. G1 and G2, on the other hand, are almost completely devoid of that kind of pretension, especially the first movie. It's fully aware of its own ridiculousness ("Scooby Doo Gang" and all) and tells a focused, competent story without any meandering, psuedo-serious nonsense.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:18 pm
by Tyrant_Lizard_King
The Battle of Shibuya in G3 is the greatest and most thrilling fight sequence in all kaijudom, but with that said I vastly prefer G2 to the rest of the trilogy.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:15 am
by Mr. Xeno
tymon wrote:^Cheorography, staging, editing, music...the way it was executed just puts me to sleep compared to the fights in the first two movies. Scaling back the action in favor of story and character is fine, obviously, but only when the stories and characters are interesting...

Sorry, I just don't get why this film is so highly regarded, aside from its amazing technical qualities. It seems like a movie I would have loved as a teenager because it's DARK'N'GRITTY and I could relate to AYANAS ANGST BRO. Now, I just laugh at how we're supposed to take any of this schlock seriously - much like the Heisei Godzilla movies, ironically. G1 and G2, on the other hand, are almost completely devoid of that kind of pretension, especially the first movie. It's fully aware of its own ridiculousness ("Scooby Doo Gang" and all) and tells a focused, competent story without any meandering, psuedo-serious nonsense.

The great irony in your statement is that a teenager would actually be bored by the story/character based third film in favor of the all-out action bonanza of the first two films.

And your "focused, competent story" of the first two films literally amounts to nothing more than:

*Bad Monster Shows Up
*Good Monster Defeats Bad Monster

And I'm not trying to dis the first two films in any way, as they are both incredibly fun, superb action films, but G3 is the better film in the same way that The Dark Knight is better than Tim Burton's Batman; it's weightier, ballsier, more ground-breaking, darker, subversive to it's genre, and tells a thrilling/unique character study that shows what's it's genre is fully capable of.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:51 pm
by tymon
There's no doubt that it has much higher goals than its predecessers, but it meets almost none of them. It actually ends usually being cheesier than the first two movies despite trying to tell a straight-faced somber story. That's a failure.

And yes, more of this teenage idea that darker or more serious automatically equals better. :lol: You're not making a great case here, and the "bad taste" comment really makes you look like an idiot/fanboy (especially considering that you and I share many of the same favorite films....soo....tell me how that makes sense?).

And "character study"? Neither G3 or The Dark Knight are character studies, they're plot-based action movies that are simply darker (and in TDK's case, much more thrilling) than their counterparts.

Re: Gamera 2: Advent of Legion (1996)

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:21 pm
by Kaiser
To be fair, G3 tries to be a character study but there's just so much other stuff going on that it feels sort of rushed and thrown in, kind of like the whole puzzle games aspect and Shinto/psychic stuff. If Biollante is an example of how to do a kaiju film with lots of elements, G3 is an example of how not to do it. Now its strengths do make up for a lot of its shortcomings, but I've always been a bit puzzled as to why its considered the best of the trilogy.

I'll be the first to admit that the characters in G2 are pretty flat. They don't have much personality and pretty much exist to move along the plot. But you know what, that's perfectly fine if your goals isn't to be some sort of character study but just to be a really entertaining film. Kaneko relies on the actors charisma to make them seem human without devoting too much time to fleshing them out at the expense of the plot or the real stars of the movie (the special effects). G3 would be much better in my opinion if it just focused on Ayana and Iris trying to get revenge on Gamera without all this political intrigue and return of the Gaos and Gamera graveyards and stuff that's cool, but never gets mentioned again in the film.