Toho Kingdom

20th Century Boy wrote:

EmperorGhidorah wrote:

20th Century Boy wrote:I would have liked this movie more if it was more original. Sometimes it just feels like a typical '60s kaiju film done in the '90s. Done very well, I'll give you that, but I feel like I've already seen everything before in Frankenstein vs. Baragon, Mothra, King Kong vs. Godzilla, etc. I prefer the second and third movies in the trilogy for more originality.

The plot was original, the characters were original, the monsters were original, the monster fights were original, the music was original. I don't see how it's a typical "60s kaiju film done in the 90s". It's so much different from the movies you listed its not even funny.

Plot - Exactly the same as Frankenstein vs. Baragon.

Characters - It was nice seeing a female lead, but it still had your typical comedic sidekick and grumpy figure of authority who wants the good monster dead.

Monsters - Gamera and Gyaos had many appearances before this.

Music - Well duh. Of course a movie's going to have an original score. That wasn't even one of my points of complaint.

The movie is clearly meant to be a tribute to kaiju movies of the '60s because Kaneko and staff were fans. My problem is that it goes just a little too far with that.

Plot - how exactly is it exactly the same. There completely different

Characters - a lot more fleshed out

Monsters - so a movie isn't original because it had characters from previous movies?

Music - I didn't know what your points of complaint were. You said I would have liked the movie better if it was more original. I gave you examples of originality.

20th Century Boy wrote:I would have liked this movie more if it was more original. Sometimes it just feels like a typical '60s kaiju film done in the '90s. Done very well, I'll give you that, but I feel like I've already seen everything before in Frankenstein vs. Baragon, Mothra, King Kong vs. Godzilla, etc. I prefer the second and third movies in the trilogy for more originality.

Actually, I think that's part of why I like Guardian of the Universe. It's fairly conventional as a kaiju film but does it with (then) contemporary effects work. I like that throwback element, probably why I like PR and LPG too; like Guardian they're really nothing new (aside from special effects for the genre) but are fun in that sense too. Still, I like G2 and G3 more.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:Plot - how exactly is it exactly the same. There completely different

No, they actually have very similar plots. That, IMO, is a point in FAVOR of the film, though, because FCTW established the plot for having a standalone versus film. The similarities are strongest in how the film features a heroic monster being hunted/persecuted by the authorities while a truly villainous monster rampages, but by the end the villainous monster is defeated. It's a really simple plot structure, but it works REALLY well and has given us some really great movies. Besides FCTW and G:GOTU, the other one that really obviously uses it is War of the Gargantuas, but you can also see shades of it in a few others. G:GOTU is notable for sticking pretty closely to the original basic structure, though.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:Characters - a lot more fleshed out

That's a function of the different time periods the movies were made in, though.

Pkmatrix wrote:
No, they actually have very similar plots. That, IMO, is a point in FAVOR of the film, though, because FCTW established the plot for having a standalone versus film. The similarities are strongest in how the film features a heroic monster being hunted/persecuted by the authorities while a truly villainous monster rampages, but by the end the villainous monster is defeated. It's a really simple plot structure, but it works REALLY well and has given us some really great movies. Besides FCTW and G:GOTU, the other one that really obviously uses it is War of the Gargantuas, but you can also see shades of it in a few others. G:GOTU is notable for sticking pretty closely to the original basic structure, though.

Thats the outer shell of the movie. Many movies in general have that same formula. That's where the similarities end. I fail to see how that warrants labeling GOTU any less original. Simple plot structure? GOTU hand more complexity than a good majority of kaiju films out there. Baragon was a generic villainous character for Frankenstein to bound on. Gyaos was a complex villain, multi layered villain.

Oh and FCTW is not a good movie at all.

EmperorGhidorah wrote: That's a function of the different time periods the movies were made in, though.

Ok but that still doesn't disprove it being an aspect of originality.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:Thats the outer shell of the movie. Many movies in general have that same formula. That's where the similarities end.

*Shrug*

That's what I figure he was referencing, since it's something I noticed a long time ago. Plenty of Giant Monster movies share similar structures (there's only, what, maybe three or four actual distinct plot structures to the whole genre?) and there's nothing wrong with that.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:I fail to see how that warrants labeling GOTU any less original. Simple plot structure? GOTU hand more complexity than a good majority of kaiju films out there. Baragon was a generic villainous character for Frankenstein to bound on. Gyaos was a complex villain, multi layered villain.

Okay, while I agree that labeling GOTU "unoriginal" is unfair and, frankly, pretty inaccurate overall, I disagree on pretty much the rest. More complexity than a good majority of kaiju films? Honestly, it's about as complex as most just in a modern context. And I never found Gyaos particularly complex or multi-layered in GOTU, though she was fun baddie. At least, it's hard to see her as such when placed opposite Gamera, who over the course of the whole trilogy presents one of the most multi-layered and complex kaiju characters of them all.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:Oh and FCTW is not a good movie at all.

*Record Screeches to a Halt*



I disagree, good sir.

o_o

EmperorGhidorah wrote:Ok but that still doesn't disprove it being an aspect of originality.

Never said it did, just pointing out that contemporary films in general tend to demand more complex characters than films pre-1970. For examples of what I mean, look at the characterization in the two King Kong remakes as opposed to the original. This is not 100% true, there were plenty of films with complex characters prior to 1970 and films with paper-thin characters after, but New Hollywood changed the standard about then.

Okay, while I agree that labeling GOTU "unoriginal" is unfair and, frankly, pretty inaccurate overall, I disagree on pretty much the rest. More complexity than a good majority of kaiju films? Honestly, it's about as complex as most just in a modern context. And I never found Gyaos particularly complex or multi-layered in GOTU, though she was fun baddie. At least, it's hard to see her as such when placed opposite Gamera, who over the course of the whole trilogy presents one of the most multi-layered and complex kaiju characters of them all.

Here's the thing. The gyaos were far more menacing than a good majority of kaiju villians. The thing I liked about the gamera trilogy villain kaijus is they were menacing and they expressed this menace thought their actions. They didn't need humans spouting off exposition to express how dangerous the kaiju was *cough* Destroyah *cough* *cough*.

*Record Screeches to a Halt*



I disagree, good sir.

o_o

Yes well some of us were under the influence while watching that movie while others weren't .

Never said it did, just pointing out that contemporary films in general tend to demand more complex characters than films pre-1970. For examples of what I mean, look at the characterization in the two King Kong remakes as opposed to the original. This is not 100% true, there were plenty of films with complex characters prior to 1970 and films with paper-thin characters after, but New Hollywood changed the standard about then.

I pretty much new this. I stated the difference in characters as an example of the two movies being different and thus GOTU is original.

20th Century Boy wrote:I would have liked this movie more if it was more original. Sometimes it just feels like a typical '60s kaiju film done in the '90s. Done very well, I'll give you that, but I feel like I've already seen everything before in Frankenstein vs. Baragon, Mothra, King Kong vs. Godzilla, etc. I prefer the second and third movies in the trilogy for more originality.

Well I think that is one of the things that people loved about GOTU. It was a "typical 60's kaiju film" but done very well. Most kaiju fans are huge fans of the 60's "Golden Era" and GOTU was very reminiscent of that time. A fun movie, creative special effects, a strong score, interesting characters. If you read G-Fan around the time that it came out that is pretty much what everyone said about it. It was successful because it took what made kaiju films fun and built upon it with better special effects.

The sequels to me were also very good but not as fun as GOTU. I like my kaiju films to be more fun than serious.

This along with the other two are movies that I can watch a million times and never get tired of, and even then, they'll always feel new to me.

1995's best giant monster movie.

Not that it had much competition...

MDK wrote:1995's best giant monster movie.

Not that it had much competition...

Is every post from you going to be flamebait against Heisei now?

MDK wrote:1995's best giant monster movie.

Not that it had much competition...

I agree. Best movie of 1995 by a long shot IMO

MDK wrote:1995's best giant monster movie.

Not that it had much competition...

This flame baiting is getting really old, really fast. Seriously, what sort of personal tragedy befell you due to the Heisei films to make you hate them with such intensity? Get over yourself and stop acting like such a little kid.

Kaiser wrote:

MDK wrote:1995's best giant monster movie.

Not that it had much competition...

This flame baiting is getting really old, really fast. Seriously, what sort of personal tragedy befell you due to the Heisei films to make you hate them with such intensity? Get over yourself and stop acting like such a little kid.

You could put him on ignore if you don't like his opinions

It's like people are deliberately biting my bait.

Well, Godzilla vs. Destoroyah is some weak shit compared to Guardian of the Universe...and how is that bait, exactly? Seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion.

tymon wrote:Well, Godzilla vs. Destoroyah is some weak shit compared to Guardian of the Universe...and how is that bait, exactly? Seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion.

Agree 100%. Seems to be some overblown sensitivity around here.

I'll fourth the opinion. GotU is leagues better than Destroyah.

After watching the trilogy again, this film has become my favorite of the three. G2 & G3 excel in some areas and falter in others, but GotU is a solid effort all around, making for a very balanced and highly entertaining film.

Honestly, it's kind of mind-blowing how superior this film and its sequels are to the last 4 Godzilla films of the same era, with budgets half as large.

Rody wrote:I'll fourth the opinion. GotU is leagues better than Destroyah.

After watching the trilogy again, this film has become my favorite of the three. G2 & G3 excel in some areas and falter in others, but GotU is a solid effort all around, making for a very balanced and highly entertaining film.

Honestly, it's kind of mind-blowing how superior this film and its sequels are to the last 4 Godzilla films of the same era, with budgets half as large.

Yeah. It's really funny how the gamera trilogy had inferior budgets yet superior effects.

EmperorGhidorah wrote:

Rody wrote:I'll fourth the opinion. GotU is leagues better than Destroyah.

After watching the trilogy again, this film has become my favorite of the three. G2 & G3 excel in some areas and falter in others, but GotU is a solid effort all around, making for a very balanced and highly entertaining film.

Honestly, it's kind of mind-blowing how superior this film and its sequels are to the last 4 Godzilla films of the same era, with budgets half as large.

Yeah. It's really funny how the gamera trilogy had inferior budgets yet superior effects.

It's not how much money you have, it's how you use it.

My gripe is not that GoTU is regarded as a better film that Destoroyah (GoTU is a better film by any criteria) but MDK bringing it into a topic where it had no place because he apparently likes bashing the Heisei series every chance he gets. So it is not his opinion that irks me, so much as how he expresses it.