Heisei Monster Discussion: Dagarah

[Godzilla 1995]

Dagarah's gonna make Barem shoot out of your toilet.

Ah, so they're crap-eating starfish.

[KaneLocke]

I can't believe people are bashing the monster for being unrealistic when 95% of the Godzilla movies are unrealistic.

You're right! Lets totally not take into consideration Dagarah's stiff movements, awful flight, and shooting skreeonk neon red smoke out of its cannons like a cheap ZF-monster..

So, you hate Destroyah as well? Battra? Heisei Rodan?

I could go on.

[Blackout286]

I can't believe people are bashing the monster for being unrealistic when 95% of the Godzilla movies are unrealistic.

You're right! Lets totally not take into consideration Dagarah's stiff movements, awful flight, and shooting skreeonk neon red smoke out of its cannons like a cheap ZF-monster..

So, you hate Destroyah as well? Battra? Heisei Rodan?

I could go on.

Kane does have a point, also even Legion from Gamera 2 looked like a cheap ZF monster imo.

And to add onto Kane's List:
SpaceGodzilla-stiff slugish movements
Grand King Ghidorah, wing movements were piss poor, neck movements were stiff and didn't even move fluid like that Showa King Ghidorah displayed.
As stated before, Orga-stiff large hands that don't even open or close. Seriously, this alone is more horrible.
Megagurius-Visible strings, awful stiff flight. Sometimes even looks alone isn't enough to cover those flaws.
Monster X- good design but not the best execution, made it more obvious that it was a man in a suit.
Keizer Ghidorah-duck taped stiff neck movements, small poor designed legs and feet, and body overall. Short wings? Really? Short wings on a huge mass of body? Good design, but shitty structure and execution.
GMK Ghidorah-lighly stiff wing movements, chicken feet....Chicken feet.....Even in Adult form it had bad execution. Godzilla GMK was pretty much the best executed monster throughout the film, next to Baragon and Mothra.
Godzilla 2002/2003/SOS-My favorite design of Godzilla, ya know within that series's timeline. But I'll admit that it was executed pretty bad and looked stiff. But none the less I still love it and don't mind it so long as I enjoy it. Which I did.
Godzilla 1985, stubby stiff leg movements, chick-rex arms...Awful execution...Need I say more?

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

Kane does have a point, also even Legion from Gamera 2 looked like a cheap ZF monster imo.

Are you serious?!

Even as a Daggy Fan, Legion is far and away the superior monster, in abilities, execution, and creativity. Legion's execution and design blows most of the Godzilla's kaiju outta the water.

[Blackout286]

Kane does have a point, also even Legion from Gamera 2 looked like a cheap ZF monster imo.

Are you serious?!

Even as a Daggy Fan, Legion is far and away the superior monster, in abilities, execution, and creativity. Legion's execution and design blows most of the Godzilla's kaiju outta the water.

Legion, she just didn't really click with me. Her abitlies and designs I have nothing against, just execution. Biollante was much better.

[Arrow]

I'm honestly not very fond of Dagarah either. I can appreciate the design for being different, but that's about where it ends, and nothing else about it really works for me. TokyoVigilante pretty much nailed all my problems with the design itself, so I don't really have anything else to add there. All I can say is that when I'm judging monster suits, I can never fully separate the design from the execution so the monster's poor performance on-screen does play a factor in my perception of him overall. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm either neutral to or plain dislike almost all of the other monsters listed before.

[Goji]

Kane does have a point, also even Legion from Gamera 2 looked like a cheap ZF monster imo.

No, it didn't...at all. Now you're just sounding like a sour puss who's annoyed because nobody agrees with him.

Relax.

[Tormentor]

Kane does have a point, also even Legion from Gamera 2 looked like a cheap ZF monster imo.

No, it didn't...at all. Now you're just sounding like a sour puss who's annoyed because nobody agrees with him.

Relax.

Gotta like illogical assumptions sometimes, its fairly amusing to watch. He doesn't sound like a sour puss, even I think Legion is a cheap ZF monster. But more as the series finale type. I expected slightly more movement when it came to her, the movements were similar to Destoroyah mixed with some Biollante. Don't get me wrong, shes a powerful creature with a good design. But like some people's opinions here about Daggy, or any other kaiju for that matter. Is that it just didn't click. Furthermore, I agree with him. Sheesh, just because someone dislikes something about a popular fan based-wise kaiju that they think was done well overall that they have to assume that the opposing person are whining or being a poor sport. Hell, I don't even like Godzilla 1964, a suit that's praised deeply and that most fans crap themselves over. My number 1 favorite is the Godzilla 1965/66 suit. It clicked with me, and even when it looked like the cookie monster and was wrapped in Godzilla vs. The Sea Monster I still loved it and still do now.

I believe that its very well established that everyone's opinions are different based on what clicks with them and what captures their interest.

[Goji]

I love how some of you STILL haven't explained how Legion looks like a "cheap Zone Fighter monster". What the hell does that even mean? There is hardly anything in the Tokusatsu genre that looks as bad as those things, save for an Ultraman enemy here and there. Legion is an example of a well executed creature design. Dagarah is not. I don't see how you could honestly defend the thing to the point where you're making illogical statements like- "Dagarah sucks huh? Uh....well....uhhh.. so does *insert obviously better executed creature design*!!".

Opinions are just that. Opinions. We can argue all day, but from I can tell, the generally consensus is that Dagarah wasn't executed well, on top of looking dumb as shit. For those of you that need it spelled out for you, this means a majority of fans thinks Dagarah sucks. I honestly feel some of you are simply being willing blind to it's faults because of some kind of personal attachment to the thing. It looks stupid, was executed poorly, and stars in the worst SPX film to ever come out of Toho. It's an opinion that most people can agree on, and I think we should just leave it at that.

[Legionmaster]

It looks stupid, was executed poorly, and stars in the worst SPX film to ever come out of Toho. It's an opinion that most people can agree on, and I think we should just leave it at that.

But I can't agree with that, which is the point we're trying to make. Don't talk about things just being opinions, but then have the audacity to tell us that we should just accept that ours are wrong.

I don't give a shit how poor the execution was, I still think Dagarah looks hella cool.

[Tormentor]

I love how some of you STILL haven't explained how Legion looks like a "cheap Zone Fighter monster". What the hell does that even mean? There is hardly anything in the Tokusatsu genre that looks as bad as those things, save for an Ultraman enemy here and there. Legion is an example of a well executed creature design. Dagarah is not. I don't see how you could honestly defend the thing to the point where you're making illogical statements like- "Dagarah sucks huh? Uh....well....uhhh.. so does *insert obviously better executed creature design*!!".

Opinions are just that. Opinions. We can argue all day, but from I can tell, the generally consensus is that Dagarah wasn't executed well, on top of looking dumb as shit. For those of you that need it spelled out for you, this means a majority of fans thinks Dagarah sucks. I honestly feel some of you are simply being willing blind to it's faults because of some kind of personal attachment to the thing. It looks stupid, was executed poorly, and stars in the worst SPX film to ever come out of Toho. It's an opinion that most people can agree on, and I think we should just leave it at that.

Allow me to explain:
-Felt cheap: Like a quickly mashed up together villain starring in a hour and a half long ZF episode special. It wasn't anything to special didn't make me go "interesting" or "pretty epic", it felt like a plain old villain and did not leave any kind of impression what so ever.

Design: It was good, but not better or great. I didn't find the monster interesting or appealing, it looked like a heavily mutated hybrid between a cockroach and a dung beetle. Just my take is all nothing major.

I already spoken about the execution and such so no need to go over that again.

"Majority of fans", umm...Until you've gathered all the fans on this planet and polled each and every one of their opinons based on the creature. That means the whole entire fanbase. Yeah that "majority" stuff isn't going to fly.

And Legionmaster I agree with you. I don't care about how poorly some people think Dagarah was executed, he still looked badass and I'm still a fan of the kaiju itself.

[Arrow]

I haven't really been following the thread faithfully, so there's probably something I missed out on, but I don't think anyone's trying to tell anyone else that their wrong for liking Dagarah. If anything, the first instance of a debate about the monster began when a negative opinion about Dagarah was called out on the first page. How one judges whether or not a monster design is good or bad in a completely objective sense is beyond me. Whether or not the monster was executed is something that can be debated, but simply liking the monster is another story altogether - I can't make people dislike Dagarah, and no one can make me like him. I don't like Dagarah - his design or his execution - but I can accept that others do, whether or not I understand why.

[Goji]

Every person that I've ever talked to about this kind of stuff (I've actually talked to and met dozens of real Godzilla fans, not just random avatars on an internet forum) dislikes Dagarah, and he is generally dismissed as a crappy monster in an equally crappy film. My opinion? Sure, but the point that I made previously is that I'm clearly not alone. Nobody likes this thing except for a handful of kids on this forum who were raised on the Heisei junk, and maybe a few exceptions like LGM.

Like Arrow mentioned, I could care less if any of you LIKE Dagarah, obviously that's fine, but don't get all butt hurt when nobody agrees with you, and proceed to list random kaiju that YOU thought weren't well done, without anything else to back up your piss poor argument.

I only responded to the notion that Legion wasn't executed well, which isn't true. What Legion looks like wasn't the point, but clearly, the point (Legion's execution, which was infinitely better) was lost on you, Tormentor.

[Blackout286]

Every person that I've ever talked to about this kind of stuff (I've actually talked to and met dozens of real Godzilla fans, not just random avatars on an internet forum) dislikes Dagarah, and he is generally dismissed as a crappy monster in an equally crappy film. My opinion? Sure, but the point that I made previously is that I'm clearly not alone. Nobody likes this thing except for a handful of kids on this forum who were raised on the Heisei junk, and maybe a few exceptions like LGM.

Like Arrow mentioned, I could care less if any of you LIKE Dagarah, obviously that's fine, but don't get all butt hurt when nobody agrees with you, and proceed to list random kaiju that YOU thought weren't well done, without anything else to back up your piss poor argument.

I only responded to the notion that Legion wasn't executed well, which isn't true. What Legion looks like wasn't the point, but clearly, the point (Legion's execution, which was infinitely better) was lost on you, Tormentor.

"A handful of kids"? has it ever occured to you that there are teenagers or young adults who liked Dagarah on this forum? Those who don't understand, won't understand the point view of those who like or our fans of the kaiju. No one's getting butt-hurt, the point we're trying to get across is that Dagarah isn't the worst thing that was produced by Toho. Kane's trying to get that point across, LGM is trying to as well. Along with me and Tormentor.

Tormentor's statement based on the appearance of Legion was something to add onto overall creature, like you and everyone did based on the topic's creature. A side order is all. But his take was that Legion's execution wasn't appealing or amazing since to him it felt that it was similar to dessy and biollante's stiff awkward movements, his take is also my take as well.

I was raised on Showa but born within the heisei era. But gradually grew into the Heisei series more.

So you talked to a portion of the fanbase, not the whole community? Amazing. But in all seriousness, I would like to interact with more of the community outside of the state I'm living in. Like going to G-Fest or going to a different kaiju event. Its a bit strange, the people I met who are g-fans think Daggy looks interesting and was executed nicely. Not great, but not bad either. Those who aren't G-fans or kaiju fans find Daggy's design unqiue and very dragon like to the point of wanting to know more about him. Of course, these people don't look out for execution or etc. They just look out for the monsters and the action before talking about who beated who and who was more badass..

[Goji]

Yadda yadda yadda. Legion and Biollante were "stiff and awkward"? Hrmm....what movie were you guys watching? What I see on screen begs to differ. What exactly are you paying attention when you watch these films?

OF COURSE monsters that were quickly put together for a TV show...in the 70's...by Toho..look like ass in comparison to even Dagarah. That is the worst argument ever.

The kaiju you listed early on the page, on the other hand, all have glaring issues that can be seen on screen. They also all share something in common, they were made in the "we don't really give a shit" eras; Heisei and Millennium. As much as I like Kawakita's early work, he really can't be praised for anything he did after the 80's. Everything after suffered from stiff movement, and a taste for *SPARKS*

[Blackout286]

Yadda yadda yadda. Legion and Biollante were "stiff and awkward"? Hrmm....what movie were you guys watching? What I see on screen begs to differ. What exactly are you paying attention when you watch these films?

OF COURSE monsters that were quickly put together for a TV show...in the 70's...by Toho..look like ass in comparison to even Dagarah. That is the worst argument ever.

The kaiju you listed early on the page, on the other hand, all have glaring issues that can be seen on screen. They also all share something in common, they were made in the "we don't really give a shit" eras; Heisei and Millennium. As much as I like Kawakita's early work, he really can't be praised for anything he did after the 80's. Everything after suffered from stiff movement, and a taste for *SPARKS*

Just our opinions, we watched the films and that's just how we felt is all. Nothing more, nothing less.

But I agree with you on one thing, I never really understood the deal with the "sparks", it was confusing and didn't really give a good impresson during battles. I understand that it represents the impact of heavy attacks or hard blows. But I kinda thought that they would progress from that at least before Godzilla Final Wars was finished being developed..

[Legionmaster]

Wait, I just realized that people in this thread have said that Legion has a bad design and bad execution. I lol'd. Her design is one of the most cared about in all of kaiju eiga. I think it's pretty harsh to call it bad based on pure aesthetics (which is hard to do, the insectoid model is a classic) when so much thought was put into her background and diegetic mechanics. They worked to make sure everything worked for the plot rather than be arbitrary (like most kaiju) and ensured that she would be a powerful and dynamic enough villain to provide entertainment. It's part of the reason so many people like G2, even over G3. The film was planned very carefully and executed just as well. Any suitmation prop with that many moving parts is instantly a bitch to operate. If we were talking about the symbiotic Legion or the flower, then I might agree that yes, they were a little sub-par. But considering how much effort was put into the queen it's understandable. The queen's execution was top priority. The movie fails if she doesn't work. But she does. There is one single shot that bothers me when I watch it, when she does this hasty retread from Gamera. The shot's from behind her, and she seems to scurry back much too fast for a creature of her size, especially compared to her movements in the rest of the film. They even consciously make use of slow disclosure of her body throughout the film to grant her greater power. We start with her all tucked in and flying. It's a momentary shot before she buzzes away. We don't get a good look at her when she's shot down either. Later, we finally get to see her stationary in Sendai, albeit only her upper half and first set of legs. Rather than run, she stalls, quite effectively. Here we see her physical domination and the sheer power of her horn beam. We also know that she can burrow quite fast, basically rendering the first attack on her moot. We don't get to see her at her full power until the final battle, and even then it's in parts. First we are now aware of her full size, one that dwarfs Gamera and dominates the screen. We never get a solid perspective of just how enormous she is. Then we discover that she has produced another swarm. The rest of the film has made it apparant just how dangerous this is. We're greated with her energy shield, the perfect defense against our hero's weapon of choice, and we already know she can physically dominate him. Even when we think she's down, she unleashes her most deadly weapon yet: the energy whips. Gamera's momentary victory instantly turns into crushing defeat. Legion, no matter how battered and broken she is, continues on her merry way to Tokyo. Gamera has to pull a deus ex machina out of his ass to beat her. That's how awesome (Biblically) she is. And that all stems from the integration of design and execution, not just of the monster, but of the entire film.

But, seeing as how this thread isn't anything about that, this wouldn't be the place to discuss it.

I guess what I like most about Dagarah is his uniqueness amongst Toho's other filmic monsters. He's like an organic tank. That flies. And swims. And makes little minions. A hive-like organic flying submarine tank. And that's pretty cool.

[Tyler]

I'm gonna buy Goji a sweater for X-Mas so he doesn't catch cold on that high horse!

[TokyoVigilante]

So, you hate Destroyah as well? Battra? Heisei Rodan?

I could go on.

This isn't a Destroyah, Battra, Heisei Rodan thread. So they're not being brought up because that's not on topic. And anytime any of them are mentioned, you'll always see accusations of them being stiff and awkward.

Kane does have a point, also even Legion from Gamera 2 looked like a cheap ZF monster imo.

And your opinion is wrong, because Legion doesn't even vaguely fulfill the criteria that pretty much any Zone Fighter monster establishes.

Most of them have awkward and strange physical proportions (large head, stubby arms, huge torso, etc.)

They're covered in excessive doo-daddery. Horns, frills, spikes, fangs, etc and random colours.

They shoot brightly coloured blasts of smoke.

But these monsters were thrown together, on the cheap for a seventies Japanese TV show. I can excuse their awful design and cheap execution based on the circumstances they come from.

Dagahra fulfills all those criteria and is the primary villain in a higher budget (comparatively speaking) film made over twenty years later. skreeonk that. There's no excuse for that kind of laziness. There's no excuse for Dagahra being a stiff-lifeless prop when the trilogy it was from was able to create much more lively and engaging monsters. Attacking a much praised and beloved monster and going into "JUST MY OPINION LOL" doesn't work when you can break down on a technical level how one was executed more strongly to the other.

[KaneLocke]

So, you hate Destroyah as well? Battra? Heisei Rodan?

I could go on.

This isn't a Destroyah, Battra, Heisei Rodan thread. So they're not being brought up because that's not on topic. And anytime any of them are mentioned, you'll always see accusations of them being stiff and awkward.

You're missing the point. People are bitching about Dagarah's awkwardness, citing it as one of the primary reasons he fails. I don't think anyone here is saying that Dagarah's suit WAS well-executed, but to dislike it JUST because it was stiff and awkward is ridiculous when so many people still like the above-mentioned suits IN SPITE of the prop-like nature. No one is asking anyone to discuss the other suits; they're being used as a comparison. Not the suits the themselves, but their nature.

Dagarah IS stiff and lifeless, and was poorly executed, that is fact. Not gonna bother arguing that point. The comparison was drawn only because Battra and his ilk are well-received (for the most part), despite suffering the same condition. I don't understand it. Disliking the design itself isn't what I'm talking about. To each his own. The aesthetics are matters of opinion.