Are the Hesei Godzilla movies the black sheep of the Godzilla series?

[kaijuguy19]

With all the many criticisms of the Heisei Godzilla movies including which were from Ishiro Honda himself saying that they're both shallow and unimagitive are the majority of the Heisei Godzilla movies at least if not all of them are just the black sheep of the Godzilla franchise that aren't worthy of that much praise and that only the Showa and the Godzilla movies that came after the Heisei films are the only good batch? Or is that being way too harsh and that I'm just overblowing the whole ordeal?

[CrimsonBloodX]

In my opinion, no. It is my least favorite series in the whole franchise, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's the black sheep.

[UltramanGoji]

With all the many criticisms of the Heisei Godzilla movies including which were from Ishiro Honda himself saying that they're both shallow and unimagitive are the majority of the Heisei Godzilla movies at least if not all of them are just the black sheep of the Godzilla franchise that aren't worthy of that much praise and that only the Showa and the Godzilla movies that came after the Heisei films are the only good batch?

I think you may need to rewrite this.

[Spuro]

If anything's the black sheep, it's that anime trilogy, lol.

[BlankAccount]

If anything's the black sheep, it's that anime trilogy, lol.

[Terasawa]

If anything's the black sheep, it's that anime trilogy, lol.

Dammit, beat me to it.

I've said before and will continue to say that the Heisei Godzilla movies are just as vastly overrated by some as they are underrated by others. Although I think Godzilla vs Biollante is the only great Godzilla film of the bunch, I truly enjoy all seven movies, even Godzilla vs Mothra and vs SpaceGodzilla. But I'm also of the opinion that the gulf between the best and worst Godzilla movies really isn't that wide, so make of that what you will.

[JAGzilla]

Nah, you're simplifying things way too much. No Godzilla series is a monolith of perfectly even quality. They all have their highs and their lows. The best Heisei movies are better than many of the Showa, Millennium, or Reiwa movies, and then GINO and the Anime Trilogy are clearly the overall bottom of the barrel.

[GojiDog]

Not to me.

I love the Heisei series, generally. Vs. Mothra and Vs. Spacegodzilla aren't that great, but I pretty much like all the rest, and some of them (Biollante, King Ghidorah, and Destroyah) rank among my favorites. I could sit here all day and list things I admire about the 90s films. They gave us cool new monsters like Biollante, Battra, Mecha Ghidorah, Spacegodzilla, and Destroyah. They also reinvented the classic monsters in wonderful ways, King Ghidorah probably getting the best of the bunch by basically stealing Godzilla's origin, and I appreciated the new takes on Mechagodzilla and especially the Son of Godzilla, who gets points for most improved in the reboot series. This was the first time that we got to see monsters comeback in a new timeline and new string of films and it was just fun to see how they were all reinvented. Now, Ghidorah, Mothra, and Mechagodzilla coming back is expected to the point of cliche, but back then, it was pretty exciting. This series also gave us some of the finest moments in the entire series (Reunion with Shindo in GVKG, Godzilla's Death in GVD, Rodan reviving Godzilla in GVMG, the various battles) and it included some of my favorite human characters in the series as well (Mr Shindo, Col. Gondo, Miki Segusa, the assassin SSS9, Azuza, Yuki, and even Raymond Burr's return as Steve Martin in the US version of the 84 film). There are flaws here and there (I hate Emi Kano for example) but there were things I didn't like about various Showa films too, and we kind of overlook those and except the great stuff and moments. And going back to the monsters, I felt like the Heisei series did a great job of making the monsters look as massive as they were supposed to be. At no point that I can recall did I ever feel like these monsters weren't hundreds of feet tall. Maybe its the bulkier suits. Maybe its the way it was shot, I don't know, but I was always convinced of their immense size.

Overall, I like the Heisei series more than I do the Millennium series, but to each his own I guess. I liked that the Heisei series was a mostly cohesive set of films (I say mostly cause the time travel in GVKG creates some issues later on) and its a story that has a starting point, a continuing string of entries, and arguably the best ending to any Godzilla film and series. The Millennium films felt like just a random mish mash of what ever they felt like doing from film to film, and the constant rebooting got annoying after a while. I also felt like maybe they brought Godzilla back too soon. I mean they killed him in 95, then we got the 98 film, and then Godzilla was back in 99. I felt like the Heisei series benefitted from the decade long hiatus as it allowed the character to take a break, freshen up, and give us time to miss him only for him to come back with more of a bang. The Millennium films felt like a reaction to both the 98 film and the Gamera trilogy and in rushing him back, it felt like Godzilla was being forced rather than naturally and organically handled. Compare that to the break in between Final Wars and the MonsterVerse and even Shin which made us go ga-ga for more Godzilla material. There is something about the lay off period and then long wait that makes it worth investing in. However, I can't say I hate any individual entry in the Millennium series on its own and sometimes the "Lets do whatever we want" approach yielded some creativity, so I'll give it that.

What didn't I like about the Heisei series? Well, like I said, Vs. Mothra and Vs. Spacegodzilla are far from being among my favorite entries. But on a more specific level, there were times when they would reference American films and it would be a little too obvious with what they were referencing. The battle with the Destroyah aggregates was too obviously a knock off of Aliens. The android from Godzilla Vs. King Ghidorah was too obviously a reference to Terminator. Oh and how about that Indiana Jones knockoff stuff from Godzilla Vs. Mothra? And alot of the talk of dinosaurs and all that jazz in Godzilla Vs. Mechagodzilla felt like Toho capitalizing on the success of Jurassic Park (which they did even more of in Mothra 3). I've watched these movies so many times that I've become numb to it, but people that watch them for the first time will know exactly what's up, and that's distracting.

However, with all that said, the black sheep of Godzilla will always be the 1998 film. Its the one entry most people look at and go "It doesn't feel like Godzilla, and even as a big budget American film, its not that good". I wouldn't call it the worst made film of the franchise (Hi Godzilla Vs. Megalon, Hi Godzilla's Revenge, Hi City on the Edge of Battle) but while those weaker films can just sort of blend into the crowd of all the other Godzilla movies by virtue of getting somethings right or feeling like they belong in the series, the 98 film just sticks out like a sore thumb that has a staph infection. The other bad entries we look at and go "Those are bad Godzilla movies" where as the 98 film we look at and go "That's not a Godzilla movie" which is almost worse.

[Garzon]

I’ve never been too crazy about them, but they’re not as bad as the anime trilogy.

[edgaguirus]

The Heisei era, like all eras, have their good and bad films. To generalize a whole series as good or bad is to ignore the individual qualities, or lack of, of each film. While Biollante is usually regarded as a good film, G vs SG still has those who like it. Whether you rate them on technical or cinematic standards, or just what you find entertaining, the Heisei films are a mixed bag like the Showa and Millennium.

[villainzilla]

well,godzilla vs biollante is decent,return of godzilla and godzilla vs mechagodzilla II are kinda mediocre and the other four are only liked by those idiots who think that godzilla being portrayed as a serious monster=good godzilla movie,so in a way,yeah they are the black sheep of this franchise,at least for me

[Terasawa]

the other four are only liked by those idiots who think that godzilla being portrayed as a serious monster=good godzilla movie

[villainzilla]

look man,i I didn't mean it that obviously,it's just that,im tired of people calling the heisei series the best godzilla era just because "lololol,godzilla is doing a goofy dance on the moon,top 10 worst godzilla movies ever",but let me tell you that,hopefully this era is ending now,so that means that people will stop saying this crap

[Terasawa]

look man,i I didn't mean it that obviously,it's just that,im tired of people calling the heisei series the best godzilla era just because "lololol,godzilla is doing a goofy dance on the moon,top 10 worst godzilla movies ever",but let me tell you that,hopefully this era is ending now,so that means that people will stop saying this crap

Seems to me there are far more productive and inclusive ways to argue that than by trying to malign the people who like the movies you don't.

[MaxRebo320]

I've always associated the term "black sheep" with something that's just very different and out-of-place, not so much something that's bad (I realize it can mean both, but the former is how I've always interpreted it when referring to movies and the like). Say what you will about the Heisei films quality-wise, but they're certainly just "continuations" of the classic Godzilla formula in an 80s - 90s. The anime trilogy is most certainly the black sheep - they're both very different AND godawful!

I do agree most Heisei films are largely inferior to the Showa films in terms of writing and general entertainment value and probably did more wrong than right. But I do think those who claim Godzilla's Revenge is a forgotten masterpiece but consider Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah a godawful piece of shit are kind of laughable. They're still all Godzilla movies, people.

[GodzillaXGomoraFight]

I would agree with previous posters and say that the Anime Trilogy is probably the real black sheep of the franchise. I for one am one of the few people that think that the anime trilogy was not all bad and felt that the first and third movies had some interesting things (the second was bad though).

On to the Heisei Series, it is probably the set of movies I hold the greatest amount of nostalgia to and al together might be my favorite of the three completed series we have. The gripes towards the Heisei movies are true though and are more apparent to me as I rewatch them every year or so. I think the Heisei Series started off strong with the first two movies and then hit a junction with Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah. The plot of the movie is wild and pushes boundaries for the series, but it also introduces trends that plague the series up until Godzilla vs. Destoroyah. I would say that from Ghidorah on, Toho played it safe and looked to cash in on its existing IPs and heavily leverage the plot points from Showa films. It can be described as lazy, but I also see it as a positive too. I feel that the Heisei pays homage to the old films, tries a few new things, and most importantly, reintroduced Godzilla and other popular kaiju to a new generation. I was among that generation of kids that grew up with the Heisei Series first and foremost and I was introduced to Mothra, Ghidorah, and Mechagodzilla through the Heisei flicks. When I think of a definitive look of certain kaiju like Godzilla and Ghidorah, I think of their Heisei iterations rather than their Showa counterparts. Another thing that I like from the Heisei Series is the general continuity movies have with each other and returning characters, even if that continuity is muddled by the Ghidorah and Spacegodzilla movies.

There are other things that you can bash the Heisei Series for: excessive use of glitter effects; constant closeups right into Godzilla's face; beam spam battles; tacked on messages at the end of movies; etc. Every era of Godzilla has aspects of it which we can nitpick and ridicule either from particular movies or as a whole. Call me a Heisei fanboy, but I would not go as far as to say it is the black sheep of the franchise when I think it had great influence on the franchise and its popularity during its run and afterwards.

[Desghidorah]

I feel Showa praising goes hand in hand with Heisei bashing a lot of the time. Some commentators I do respect that will worship some of the Showa entries absolutely lambast the Heisei series. Honestly, I just write it off as nostalgia and stubbornness; given many of the Showa entries, even the ones praised, are guilty of the same flaws the Heisei films seem to get crucified over. Extremely boring human protagonists, very shallow human antagonists, monster fights disconnected from the plot, etc. I for one adore continuity, with events of a prior entry having consequences for a later one. We very, very rarely get that in the entire franchise outside of the Heisei series and Monster'verse. And it's often not stale continuity where the plot seems like we're on loop, like the anime trilogy suffered from; but something brand new having an end reaction in the following feature. It gives the characters and world a much more fleshed out feel. While I love the Showa entries to bits, let's be honest, and acknowledge that for a vast majority of that era's outings, it was like the world got hit with a reset button. Tokyo Tower got knocked over how many times?

Both eras have solid wins and less than stellar outings.

[Terasawa]

Honestly, I just write it off as nostalgia and stubbornness

Whether intended or not, like villainzilla's comment, this reads like you're just trying to delegitimize a contrasting opinion to your own.

[kamilleblu]

Despite making money, the last several Heisei films were not highly regarded in Japan. Critics and hardcore Godzilla fans alike had few good things to say about them. Norman England has talked a bit about this before and, at least within his circle of friends, compared it to Star Wars fan reactions to The Last Jedi. Mark Shilling, as quoted in Will Tsutsui's Godzilla on My Mind, summed it up with: "the lameness of the story lines, with their mix of farfetched international intrigue, belabored techno-jargon, and predictable finales made the series a critical disaster. Not campy enough to be a hoot, they were simply over-produced bores.” Another critic mentioned in the book said everything made since 1984 was cold and cynical. Steve Ryfle mentions in Japan's Favorite Monstar that Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla and Godzilla vs Destoroyah were met with mixed to negative reviews. Just food for thought.

[Desghidorah]

Honestly, I just write it off as nostalgia and stubbornness

Whether intended or not, like villainzilla's comment, this reads like you're just trying to delegitimize a contrasting opinion to your own.

Not my intent, my apologies. I'm just noting some of the lambasting the Heisei series gets by some commentators, the very Showa films they praise are also guilty of. Heisei series has issues and I can fully grasp why one would prefer another era over it. I just find some reasonings much more concrete than others.