Toho Kingdom

Gojirawars 03 wrote:I'm just some stupid kid who can't appreciate "true art" like Son of Godzilla, as I've been reminded by plenty of people on this site before.

Every time this comes up the question to you is always "why is Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II (or whatever Heisei movie) objectively better than Son of Godzilla (or whatever Showa movie)." Each time, your answer is "because Mechagodzilla is a better villain than Kumonga!" -or- "Baby Godzilla isn't as ugly as Minya!" -or- "people standing around in a bunker watching Godzilla and Mechagodzilla blast colorful lasers at each other is more interesting than scientists on an island!"

Those are opinions and you're more than entitled to them. But they don't answer the question, which is always about objectivity. Your answers are subjective examples.

For what it's worth, I think most of us on this site grew up with the Heisei series. Certainly newer or younger fans would have had more access to those films than the Showa films, but even some of us in our late 20s (and older) grew up as the Heisei and Millennium movies were being made and released. I've always enjoyed the Heisei movies but, with few exceptions, I don't think they're as well made as the Godzilla movies of the 1960s.

Your opinion does matter as long as you or anyone else has something to add to a discussion. But that said, don't expect anyone to come around to your side when you only offer shallow criticisms such as "Ebirah is just a big phony looking claw!" or unsubstantiated praise in "the special effects got way better from the Showa era." (We want to know how. Why do you believe that?)

Gojirawars 03 wrote:Reading through what Toho Kingdom thinks of the Heisei Era as a whole makes me lose faith in humanity.

It sounds unhealthy to base your entire faith in humanity on what a bunch of strangers think about some obscure movies.

I was under the impression for the longest time that the Heisei films were mostly all beloved by the fanbase.
Then I came here and just felt so disheartened seeing so much hatred and distaste for what is, in my opinion, a great series of films.

To be honest, I think most Godzilla movies (from all eras) aren't really good movies; a lot of them are entertaining but have differing degrees of effectiveness in style, design, writing, use of time and budget, etc. They're hardly "great" in the sense that they can compete with Lord of the Rings or Disney or the MCU (and I'm not even a fan of any of those things). Even Godzilla vs Biollante falls flat on its face at various points, and I like it way more than Son of Godzilla.

Then again, I'm also assuming it has something to do with age, as I imagine I'm far younger than most people here. But then I really have no clue. I grew up with these films alongside the Showa and Millenium films, and took a particular liking to the Heisei Era.

You like what you like. I do the same. No problemo.

But then what does my opinion matter? I'm just some stupid kid who can't appreciate "true art" like Son of Godzilla, as I've been reminded by plenty of people on this site before. I'm just dumbfounded. I feel like the only forum sections here where people have been welcoming and pleasant to be around are the RP forums.

No need for the passive-aggressive-defensive "woe-is-me" attitude. That only adds fuel to conflict, and pushes away the possibility of learning about yourself, others, and the world. That type of attitude is often an excuse to whine or not think deeply, and many people do it, including grown-ass men.

I like a lot of things most people don't know exist (not a hipster, goddammit, just picky), and I often dislike or don't care about things that most people applaud endlessly, including a lot of Godzilla movies. But I think it's an enriching experience to consider what you like, why you like it, why most people like or don't like it, and then decide what any of that means to you, without being either butthurt or uptight about it (though I fall under uptight sometimes, I'll admit).

It's also not a bad idea to expand your knowledge and experience over time, because I used to love Disney and rate it extremely highly until I realized it's often pretty bland, or at least tame, compared to a whole wider world of art and storytelling. And even though I'll always always always admire Ray Harryhausen, his movies just don't reach me the same way Jan Svankmajer's bizarre and unique stop-motion experiences do.

Sorry, rambled for a bit. My point is I think it's better to enjoy or dislike what you will; consider why you like or dislike it clearly, emotionally, and intelligently (as opposed to just feeling things vaguely); consider if other perspectives have anything interesting to add to your understanding (but feel free to contradict them if you see an error in their reasoning); and go about your days in relative peace.

Considering I watched these films a lot in my early childhood, I have a lot of fond memories of them.

MorgansTShirt wrote:To be honest, I think most Godzilla movies (from all eras) aren't really good movies; a lot of them are entertaining but have differing degrees of effectiveness in style, design, writing, use of time and budget, etc. They're hardly "great" in the sense that they can compete with Lord of the Rings or Disney or the MCU (and I'm not even a fan of any of those things).

I would actually put a decent number of kaiju films on par with those, but I also wouldn't rank most of those among the all time greats of cinema .

Far fewer and farther between (though not non-existent) would be the kaiju films I'd put on the level of, say, the best of Orson Welles, Alfred Hitchcock or Akira Kurosawa.

eabaker wrote:

MorgansTShirt wrote:To be honest, I think most Godzilla movies (from all eras) aren't really good movies; a lot of them are entertaining but have differing degrees of effectiveness in style, design, writing, use of time and budget, etc. They're hardly "great" in the sense that they can compete with Lord of the Rings or Disney or the MCU (and I'm not even a fan of any of those things).

I would actually put a decent number of kaiju films on par with those, but I also wouldn't rank most of those among the all time greats of cinema .

Far fewer and farther between (though not non-existent) would be the kaiju films I'd put on the level of, say, the best of Orson Welles, Alfred Hitchcock or Akira Kurosawa.

Haha, it's refreshing to find someone here who can discuss Welles, Hitchcock, or Kurosawa. I only listed LotR, Disney, and MCU because those and a bunch of monster movies seem to be the only movies most members here care to discuss.

To be fair, I was thinking of watching my old Godzilla movies this summer. Maybe I'll better appreciate them again with your considerate post. I definitely wouldn't call most of them "bad" movies, because I think fun entertainment isn't at all bad. But I do think when people surround themselves with narrow genres of movies, especially mainstream animated films, action blockbusters, and cheesy monster movies, they tend to overrate them.

I'd say most of the Heisei and Millennium entires are just as """good""" as most MCU flicks

Honestly, I think every Godzilla movie from 1954 to the present has been at worst only a competently made major studio picture with decent production values made by talented craftsmen and performers.

Terasawa wrote:Honestly, I think every Godzilla movie from 1954 to the present has been at worst only a competently made major studio picture with decent production values made by talented craftsmen and performers.

Well said.

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:I'd say most of the Heisei and Millennium entires are just as """good""" as most MCU flicks

I would love for you to elaborate on this.

kamilleblu wrote: I would love for you to elaborate on this.

A good number of Marvel productions have milquetoast direction and photography, leading them to feel similar to another and like TV productions. It's the stuff like the small amount of coverage and dull lighting that makes them so un-engaging for me. I'd say the same about most of the Heisei and Millennium flicks, none of them are doing anything particularly good with the format they're in. It seems like both Feige and Tanaka/Tomiyama love to work with directors who won't cause much trouble nor bring anything new to the table. I'd totally concede that the character work in your average MCU film is better than most of the post-80's Godzilla films, but they're both so bland for their genre that I'm fine with never watching anything from either again.

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:

kamilleblu wrote: I would love for you to elaborate on this.

A good number of Marvel productions have milquetoast direction and photography, leading them to feel similar to another and like TV productions. It's the stuff like the small amount of coverage and dull lighting that makes them so un-engaging for me. I'd say the same about most of the Heisei and Millennium flicks, none of them are doing anything particularly good with the format they're in. It seems like both Feige and Tanaka/Tomiyama love to work with directors who won't cause much trouble nor bring anything new to the table. I'd totally concede that the character work in your average MCU film is better than most of the post-80's Godzilla films, but they're both so bland for their genre that I'm fine with never watching anything from either again.

Spoiler:

At least Tomiyama brought in Kaneko and Kitamura for some fresh blood, even when Feige gets someone like Coogler or Wright they either leave 3rd act action scenes to the overworked effects teams or drop out altogether. It's a bit ironic of me to say something about Okawara and Tezuka being easy to work with as a slight against them and their films while I love Honda, a director known for compromising and not being demanding enough. But I do think the latter ended up making their visually interesting and thoroughly engaging storytelling prevalent in spite of the pigeonhole Tanaka shoved him into. The docu-drama feel Honda brings in works really well for what he's trying to tell and for grounding the big Tsuburaya effects scenes, Okawara and Tezuka (except for 2000) just feel like they're doing the minimal that's required or apeing their favorite films.

Yeah. Feige does seem risk-averse. Which is disappointing considering he has both the goodwill and money to afford experimentation. Not to mention the creativity of the medium being translated into film. There are so many missed opportunities. Doctor Strange and Guardians of the Galaxy are some of the few exceptions to the uninspired photography. I definitely prefer the work of people like Burton, Raimi, and Snyder when it comes to producing memorable imagery. But, back to the topic at hand, I agree that the MCU has the better characters and I would also say it has the better action. Plus, they are less formulaic than post-80's Godzilla. For example, I commend the decision not to retell Spider-Man's origin story and all of the films are usually fairly distinguishable. No one should confuse Iron Man with its sequels.

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:

kamilleblu wrote: I would love for you to elaborate on this.

A good number of Marvel productions have milquetoast direction and photography, leading them to feel similar to another and like TV productions. It's the stuff like the small amount of coverage and dull lighting that makes them so un-engaging for me. I'd say the same about most of the Heisei and Millennium flicks, none of them are doing anything particularly good with the format they're in. It seems like both Feige and Tanaka/Tomiyama love to work with directors who won't cause much trouble nor bring anything new to the table. I'd totally concede that the character work in your average MCU film is better than most of the post-80's Godzilla films, but they're both so bland for their genre that I'm fine with never watching anything from either again.

Spoiler:

At least Tomiyama brought in Kaneko and Kitamura for some fresh blood, even when Feige gets someone like Coogler or Wright they either leave 3rd act action scenes to the overworked effects teams or drop out altogether. It's a bit ironic of me to say something about Okawara and Tezuka being easy to work with as a slight against them and their films while I love Honda, a director known for compromising and not being demanding enough. But I do think the latter ended up making their visually interesting and thoroughly engaging storytelling prevalent in spite of the pigeonhole Tanaka shoved him into. The docu-drama feel Honda brings in works really well for what he's trying to tell and for grounding the big Tsuburaya effects scenes, Okawara and Tezuka (except for 2000) just feel like they're doing the minimal that's required or apeing their favorite films.

Ooof, well said when it comes to the MCU, particularly the cinematography/ color grading.
Idk why Feige loves the washed out look that every film after Phase One has to some degree so much.

Okawara was a pretty bland director during the Post-1980s Godzilla films.
Kaneko was a massive breath of fresh air, the guy who did GvSpacegodzilla for better or worse, I kinda liked Tezuka, and Kitamura wasn’t right for the 50th anniversary film tbh.
JK Rowling’s Wizarding World has been suffering from the same shit for more than a decade with David Yates.

LockBite wrote:I’ve noticed that when people defend the Heisei series, they often point out the pre-Mothra films. After 1991, the Heisei series definitely underwent a downturn in quality, and aside from that, the post-Ghidorah films had a different, less gritty vibe. So let’s do something fun here: say nice things about the post-1991 Heisei era.
I’ll throw a few out there.

- Great music. Spacegodzilla’s theme, the emphasis on brass, that was a lot of fun.
- A feel for 90s Japan. Kind of a given, but these films did this particularly well. When I think of 90s Godzilla, he’s particularly synonymous with the zeitgeist of this setting.
- A sense of scale. Okay so this could be hit or miss, but here you had a lot of building-toppling and slow, heavy falls. You also have things like Godzilla ripping chunks off of Destoroyah, which comes off as something that would only happen that way in a kaiju fight.

All of it was great!

Cedric02 wrote:

I’ve noticed that when people defend the Heisei series, they often point out the pre-Mothra films. After 1991, the Heisei series definitely underwent a downturn in quality, and aside from that, the post-Ghidorah films had a different, less gritty vibe. So let’s do something fun here: say nice things about the post-1991 Heisei era.
I’ll throw a few out there.

- Great music. Spacegodzilla’s theme, the emphasis on brass, that was a lot of fun.
- A feel for 90s Japan. Kind of a given, but these films did this particularly well. When I think of 90s Godzilla, he’s particularly synonymous with the zeitgeist of this setting.
- A sense of scale. Okay so this could be hit or miss, but here you had a lot of building-toppling and slow, heavy falls. You also have things like Godzilla ripping chunks off of Destoroyah, which comes off as something that would only happen that way in a kaiju fight.

All of it was great!

Why'd you insert that link into the quote

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:

Cedric02 wrote:

I’ve noticed that when people defend the Heisei series, they often point out the pre-Mothra films. After 1991, the Heisei series definitely underwent a downturn in quality, and aside from that, the post-Ghidorah films had a different, less gritty vibe. So let’s do something fun here: say nice things about the post-1991 Heisei era.
I’ll throw a few out there.

- Great music. Spacegodzilla’s theme, the emphasis on brass, that was a lot of fun.
- A feel for 90s Japan. Kind of a given, but these films did this particularly well. When I think of 90s Godzilla, he’s particularly synonymous with the zeitgeist of this setting.
- A sense of scale. Okay so this could be hit or miss, but here you had a lot of building-toppling and slow, heavy falls. You also have things like Godzilla ripping chunks off of Destoroyah, which comes off as something that would only happen that way in a kaiju fight.

All of it was great!

Why'd you insert that link into the quote

Pretty certain that was a bot. Carry on, folks.

Post 91 Heisei gets an undeserved bad rep. While I do think GvM was bad along with GvSG being medicore, GvMG and GvD were entertaining even if they had technical hiccups. GvSG may have been a mess but for some reason I think Spacegodzilla works as a monster in the series. The Heisei Mechagodzilla, Destroroyah and Spacegodzilla are some of my favorite monsters in the whole series actually. Heisei Godzilla himself seems pretty iconic and a lot of designs in comics and whatnot seem to take a lot of inspiration from his design. Plus we got Meltdown Godzilla and the excellent spiral ray out of the rest of the Heisei series. I also love the fact all the movies in this series are linked. I think part of the reason Heisei series gets a lot of flak is because the Gamera movies were so much more well made. It is also important to mention that a majority of post 91 Heisei movies were made as a knee-jerk reaction because of the failed attempt to make an American Godzilla movie at the time. So yeah the movies aren't the best technically speaking but given the circumstances and comparisons to Gamera at the time I'd say is is a fine series and my personal favorite series.

Some positives about the back half of the Heisei films:

--Monster designs. Both the updates and the original monsters are well done. The new MG captures a 90s meka vibe in much the same way that the original captured a 70s meka vibe. MOGUERA is a personal favorite of mine, and I have always been a fan of both Space Godzilla and Destoroyah. About the only one which doesn't work so well is Rodan, and I put that mostly because I think his head is a little too big. Otherwise it's great to see the Flying Monster again.

--The return of Momoko Kochi. After making Gojira, Half Human, and The Mysterians, Kochi left Toho and pursued formal acting training, and transitioned to doing more stage acting. Her return as Emiko Yamane in GvD is a highlight of the era for me. This is especially true for me as Godzilla, King of the Monsters was my introduction to Godzilla, so Emiko/Serizawa/Ogata have always been central in mind in terms of the series.

Mechagodzilla’s roar was pretty cool, and the first roar baby emits is neat.

That’s all I got

Stump Feet wrote:Mechagodzilla’s roar was pretty cool, and the first roar baby emits is neat.

That’s all I got

Hey, come now, this is the positivity thread, not the snark thread.

Positives for me... well I think vs Destoroyah and Battle for Earth are both better movies than vs King Ghidorah, so there's that!

Battle for Earth plays it safe. Way too safe. It retreads entire plot threads from older movies but with weaker execution. The environmental message is pretty poorly handled. I get it. I get those complaints. It's a very rough movie.

But it's better written than vs King Ghidorah in almost every way. And given how often this film is torn apart by the fandom, I'll consider that a positive.

Vs Destoroyah is better than Battle for Earth of course. Although it's one of my personal favorites in the franchise, looking at it objectively it's... pretty average, maybe a bit above. I'd give it a 6/10 personally, or a 6.5 if I'm feeling generous. Destoroyah itself is my favorite monster in the series though, and you know what?

You know what?

I LOVE the Destoroyah vs Police scene! I watched this movie before I had ever seen even a glimpse of the Alien franchise, so this was fresh territory for me at the time. I loved it back then, and I still do today.

Maybe that's a post for the Kaiju Fan Confessions thread, .

GvsMG had a fantastic score, SpaceGodzilla was an interesting kaiju, and I absolutely adore GvD.