Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby kamilleblu » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:23 pm

G&G-Fan wrote:The Showa series had the potential to, but ended up just making him whatever the script demanded him to (Son of Godzilla makes it look like he becomes a caring father, but suddenly in Hedorah, he's all about saving the environment, in Gigan and Megalon, he's just chilling with Anguirus on Monster Island, and in Mechagodzilla, he lives inside of a building. Wtf happened?! Did Godzilla just abandon his son for the next 31 years? And before you bring it up, Godzilla would occasionally check on Little Godzilla, and even when he wasn't on Birth Island, he was right there in the ocean nearby in case his son was in any danger. The Showa Godzilla doesn't have a set personality, he just does whatever the story needs him to), and the Millennium has no continuity which prevents Godzilla from having any sort of ark, just being a plot device (Godzilla appears at the most convenient time ever, right when Kiryu is done so it to show off in Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla. Godzilla's attack pattern makes no sense and has very convenient timing, which is just dumb, contrived writing. He's just an object for the screenwriters to have appear at a convenient time to get the plot going. That's not what Godzilla should be. Every single Heisei film had a good reason for Godzilla to be active at that time and place, preventing plot conveniences and making him like an actual, you know, living thing).


Maybe because the writers weren't concerned about continuity and were more interested in experimenting? Only in the Showa Era do you find consecutive entries as diverse as Destroy All Monsters, All Monsters Attack, and Godzilla vs Hedorah. Continuity in the Showa Era wasn't all that important to begin with. But it's out of the window after Monster Zero. Think of them more as anthology films. And it's sort of a disservice to bunch all of the Showa films together. There should be subcategories to reflect the changes in creative teams, budgets, cultural taste/attitudes, and demographics over the two decades these films were produced. With that said, what do you mean Godzilla doesn't have a character. He gradually goes from villain to reluctant anti-hero to full fledged superhero. How does he not have a character? By the way, post-1991 Heisei is easily the most redundant and creatively stale collection of films in the series.

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:35 am

Doubt he will reply to you lol....
BARAGONBREH wrote:To be frank, your opinions on how a design ought to be judged ranks near the bottom of anyone on the forum, after you advocated for Ghidorah having wheels for feet and rainbow lasers during your weird argument that audiences don't care how laughable SFX look.


Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby eabaker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:06 am

G&G-Fan wrote:I love how you guys like to pretend you judge these movies based off of whether they have good characters with arks and character traits


Hey, look, we're all a bunch of total liars! Good thing somebody's come along who won't let us get away with this bullshit of disingenuously claiming to have our own perspectives on and relationships with these movies!

From now, we'll all just be quiet and let G&G-Fan speak, okay? Because he's the only one telling it like it is!
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby UltramanGoji » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:13 am

It's amazing how someone can write so many paragraphs about absolutely nothing.
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:38 am

G&G-Fan wrote:And GVMGII and GVD have almost the same scores on and IMDB as the first three Heisei films, and these films are very highly rated among Japanese critics and audiences, as well as most other sites, and pretty much every other place I've been to. In other words, these are not objectively bad films. All of the poop I see on this forum is just post-1991 Heisei hate agenda this hive-minded forum has.

What's your source on Japanese critics liking these flicks? The likes of Godzilla vs Destoroyah wasn't well received at all, I think its safe to say neither were the 3 movies that preceded it. And the likes of IMDb users giving the movie a good score doesn't mean its objectively good. For one, they rank The Dark Knight as one of the top 100 films of all time alongside classics such as Seven Samurai or The Godfather. Secondly, anybody who bothers to score Godzilla movies on there is likely a huge fan rating them on a skewed level. They're cult movies, the vast majority of the votes are probably based on criteria such as "how cool was the fight" or "how serious is it?" If you like these movies, thats perfectly fine. Lots of people on here enjoy things such as Godzilla vs Megalon, which nobody would argue is high brow cinema. You shouldn't project or resort to whataboutisms/deflections. Or dismiss everybody else as someone following the hivemind. Just keep enjoying what you like, don't take any criticisms of those things as a personal attack on your taste.
BARAGONBREH wrote:To be frank, your opinions on how a design ought to be judged ranks near the bottom of anyone on the forum, after you advocated for Ghidorah having wheels for feet and rainbow lasers during your weird argument that audiences don't care how laughable SFX look.


Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby szmigiel » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:48 pm

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:
G&G-Fan wrote:And GVMGII and GVD have almost the same scores on and IMDB as the first three Heisei films, and these films are very highly rated among Japanese critics and audiences, as well as most other sites, and pretty much every other place I've been to. In other words, these are not objectively bad films. All of the poop I see on this forum is just post-1991 Heisei hate agenda this hive-minded forum has.

What's your source on Japanese critics liking these flicks? The likes of Godzilla vs Destoroyah wasn't well received at all, I think its safe to say neither were the 3 movies that preceded it. And the likes of IMDb users giving the movie a good score doesn't mean its objectively good. For one, they rank The Dark Knight as one of the top 100 films of all time alongside classics such as Seven Samurai or The Godfather. Secondly, anybody who bothers to score Godzilla movies on there is likely a huge fan rating them on a skewed level. They're cult movies, the vast majority of the votes are probably based on criteria such as "how cool was the fight" or "how serious is it?" If you like these movies, thats perfectly fine. Lots of people on here enjoy things such as Godzilla vs Megalon, which nobody would argue is high brow cinema. You shouldn't project or resort to whataboutisms/deflections. Or dismiss everybody else as someone following the hivemind. Just keep enjoying what you like, don't take any criticisms of those things as a personal attack on your taste.


A while back I posted about a 2channel user that went through the different Godzilla films before the release of Godzilla 2014 and posted a ranking.
http://jokercluster.blogspot.com/2015/12/intergrated-japanese-godzilla-rankings.html

Godzilla Vs Destoroyah ranked #13 and Godzilla Vs Mechagodzilla II ranked #18 so right in the middle, hard to call them highly rated, but not the lowest either.

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:39 pm

I mean, it takes things like Yahoo movie into account, which is basically the Japanese IMDb. Not to mention the low amount of people that are listed alongside the movie, Godzilla 98 boasting the highest number at around a bit less than 1,000. Again, its likely just hardcore fans rating them.
BARAGONBREH wrote:To be frank, your opinions on how a design ought to be judged ranks near the bottom of anyone on the forum, after you advocated for Ghidorah having wheels for feet and rainbow lasers during your weird argument that audiences don't care how laughable SFX look.


Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby G&G-Fan » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:32 pm

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:What's your source on Japanese critics liking these flicks? The likes of Godzilla vs Destoroyah wasn't well received at all, I think its safe to say neither were the 3 movies that preceded it. And the likes of IMDb users giving the movie a good score doesn't mean its objectively good. For one, they rank The Dark Knight as one of the top 100 films of all time alongside classics such as Seven Samurai or The Godfather. Secondly, anybody who bothers to score Godzilla movies on there is likely a huge fan rating them on a skewed level. They're cult movies, the vast majority of the votes are probably based on criteria such as "how cool was the fight" or "how serious is it?" If you like these movies, thats perfectly fine. Lots of people on here enjoy things such as Godzilla vs Megalon, which nobody would argue is high brow cinema. You shouldn't project or resort to whataboutisms/deflections. Or dismiss everybody else as someone following the hivemind. Just keep enjoying what you like, don't take any criticisms of those things as a personal attack on your taste.

This Japanese poll is my source (which btw, is listed in the order the movies came out, not the ranking):
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And here is another one:
Image

So I'm not buying Godzilla vs. Destoroyah not being very well received in Japan. I'm sure if they like the movie now (as shown in the polls), they liked it back then (even Godzilla vs. Biollante was well liked back then by the people who went and saw it, despite it not being as huge as a box office success). From what I've heard, it has been very positively received. Every review I've seen of this film rates it highly. Even the site this forum is named after has reviews that highly rate it. Pretty much every site I go on besides this one, people say it is one of, if not the, best Godzilla movies ever, let alone one of the best of the Heisei era. Watch big reviewers on YouTube like KaijuNoir, or literally any top 10 Godzilla movies list, you're very likely to find Godzilla vs. Destoroyah and a lot of times you will see Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II. Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II has mostly been regarded as an above average film, I have seen a couple bad reviews, but most are positive. It was way better received than it's predecessor or successor, and still is today. Both GVMGII and GVD are considered some of the best of the Heisei series by most reviewers. And these films are often shown at film festivals in Japan, and I'm pretty sure nobody would attend if they didn't like the movies. Heisei is also undoubtedly the most popular Godzilla era in Japan. Just look at all of the Heisei stuff there. Most Godzilla products are Heisei. I'm sure it wouldn't be that way if the majority of people didn't like the movies.

Here are multiple lists that rate Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II and/or Godzilla vs. Destoroyah relatively high among other films:
https://www.slashfilm.com/godzilla-movi ... art-two/2/
https://screenrant.com/every-godzilla-m ... orst-best/
https://www.geek.com/movies/the-10-esse ... s-1675034/

Here are positive reviews for Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II:
http://codysfilmandtvblog.blogspot.com/ ... la-vs.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20070623175 ... ntentID=88
http://americankaiju.kaijuphile.com/art ... smg2.shtml
https://web.archive.org/web/20080509150 ... a-1993.htm
https://www.tohokingdom.com/reviews/sub ... illa_2.htm

Here are positive reviews for Godzilla vs. Destoroyah:
https://codysfilmandtvblog.blogspot.com ... vs_26.html
https://www.tohokingdom.com/reviews/veg ... oroyah.htm
https://www.tohokingdom.com/reviews/sub ... oroyah.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20080917030 ... troyer.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20070624105 ... ntentID=90
https://www.alternateending.com/2014/03 ... -fire.html

The point I'm trying to make here is that these are not objectively bad films, and they weren't critically slammed or anything like that. Japanese audiences love them and most places give them positive reviews. I see lots of posts on social media giving love to these films (YouTube seems to be the place where the Heisei Godzilla films are most loved. It's pretty good on Facebook as well in my experience). Critics and notable Godzilla reviewers have said good things about these films. Most people I talk to online and in person at places like G-Fest like these films (and when I showed them to my friends, who are very casual fans, they really liked them). And I personally love them. It's all subjective (well, except for the original; if anyone hates that they should probably be banished :lol:).

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby PitchBlackProgress » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:05 pm

Lols at “Godzilla vs. Destroyah is a great movie because YouTube said so”

So it’s got to the point where you’re desperately trying to prove the Heisei era’s worth, huh :lol:
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:06 pm

Polls aren't a good source for determining if a movie is good or not. We have no idea who the biggest demographic responding to them nor the sample size. And they vary wildly too. Back in 2014 people never shut up about Godzilla vs Biollante being the most beloved film in the series because of one poll. Then after Shin Godzilla came out, it didn't even place in the top 5 of a nationwide poll, losing to the likes of Godzilla vs Mothra. I don't think anybody would consider Top 10 Godzilla movie lists to be evidence that something is objectively good, unless its done by people who actually know a thing or two about film. (I sincerely doubt any are) Nor Godzilla YouTubers, who are just showing their love for the franchise. And sorry, I don't really give worth to anecdotal evidence. I know plenty of people who like the Michael Bay Transformers movies. Doesn't mean they're objectively good and critically well received.
BARAGONBREH wrote:To be frank, your opinions on how a design ought to be judged ranks near the bottom of anyone on the forum, after you advocated for Ghidorah having wheels for feet and rainbow lasers during your weird argument that audiences don't care how laughable SFX look.


Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby szmigiel » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:47 am

The Heisei series popularity in Japanese fanbase is as mixed as it is in the Western fanbase.

On Yahoo Japan they are rated 1 to 5 and are pretty well liked
https://movies.yahoo.co.jp/movie/?type=&roadshow_flg=0&roadshow_from=&img_type=2&query=%E3%82%B4%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A9&genre=&award=&sort=year&page=1

Godzilla Vs Destoroyah 3.79
Godzilla Vs Mechagodzilla II 3.58
Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah 3.45
Godzilla Vs Biollante 3.44
Godzilla Vs Mothra 3.31
Godzilla 1984 3.24
Godzilla Vs Space Godzilla 3.10

On Eiga.com the are rated 1 to 4 they are in the middle
https://eiga.com/search/%E3%82%B4%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A9/movie/

Godzilla Vs Destoroyah 3.3
Godzilla Vs Biollante 3.2
Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah 3.1
Godzilla Vs Mechagodzilla II 3.1
Godzilla Vs Mothra 3.0
Godzilla Vs Space Godzilla 3.0
Godzilla 1984 2.8

On Cinemascape they are rated 1 to 5 and overall a lot lower. Plenty of Showa era films are rated 3 and up
http://cinema.intercritique.com/movie.cgi?name=%A5%B4%A5%B8%A5%E9&page=1

Godzilla 1984 2.7
Godzilla Vs Biollante 2.7
Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah 2.5
Godzilla Vs Mothra 2.5
Godzilla Vs Mechagodzilla II 2.4
Godzilla Vs Space Godzilla 2.2
Godzilla Vs Destoroyah 2.2

Lastly on Everyones Cinema Reviews rated 1 to 10 other then Godzilla Vs Biollante they are in the middle or bottom
https://www.jtnews.jp/cgi-bin/search.cgi?ENCODE=UTF-8&NO=14&PAGE_NO=2&SERCH_DATA=%E3%82%B4%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A9

Godzilla Vs Biollante 7.0
Godzilla 1984 5.03
Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah 4.96
Godzilla Vs Mechagodzilla II 5.53
Godzilla Vs Mothra 4.55
Godzilla Vs Destoroyah 4.55
Godzilla Vs Space Godzilla 4.0

Godzilla Vs Destoroyah is on the top of 2 list, and on the bottom of the other 2.
Godzilla Vs Mechagodzilla II is in the top or 1 list and middle of the other 3

Destoroyah as a Kaiju didn't even rank in the Top 10 of Toho Kaiju in 2017 coming in at #17 of a Top 20 list.
Super Mechagodzilla Ranked #13 of the Top 20 list
https://dorama9.com/2017/11/12/post-22894/

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby GojiDog » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:30 am

I remember when I first got on the internet in the mid-late 90s, the prevailing opinion was that the Heisei films were (for the most part) awesome and the Showa films had one great era (50s-60s) and the lowest point of Godzilla's history (70s).

Now here we are in 2018 and it seems like the Showa films are mostly revered it seems and a large number of fans have turned against the Heisei films.

Weird how that works out.

Well, I liked the Heisei films (again, for the most part).

As I've said before, I liked the attempt at tightening the continuity and having the events of one film impact a film two or three entries down the line, and that did give it more of a comic booky kind of feel to it. And I also felt like there was a perfect balance of old and new monsters being featured.

Nowadays, I think we all expect old monsters to come back rather than even attempt to make new ones. But in this period we got a great blend of new monsters coming back (Ghidorah, Mothra, Mechagodzilla, Rodan, and the Son of Godzilla) and new ones being created (Biollante, Mecha Ghidorah, Battra, Spacegodzilla, and Destroyah).

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby PitchBlackProgress » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:00 pm

GojiDog wrote:
Now here we are in 2018 and it seems like the Showa films are mostly revered it seems and a large number of fans have turned against the Heisei films.

Weird how that works out.

Well, the Heisei series doesn’t exactly age well.

The Showa era was the best there was at the time in that genre, and no other country could compete.
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby UltramanGoji » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:12 pm

The Heisei series was lauded back in the 90's because it was brand new and unobtainable in the United States outside of bootlegs. Same reason older issues of G-FAN and defunct websites give such a high rating to Destroy All Monsters.
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby KaijuCanuck » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:25 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:The Heisei series was lauded back in the 90's because it was brand new and unobtainable in the United States outside of bootlegs. Same reason older issues of G-FAN and defunct websites give such a high rating to Destroy All Monsters.


Destroy all Monsters is every bit the hype it has traditionally been made out to be...

What?? Who said that?? You can’t say that here!!! Show yourself, you rogue!
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Ivo-goji » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:36 pm

The strenuous insistence that the Heisei series is not good and was never thought of as good and the futility of trying to prove otherwise with tangible data from Godzilla "fans" is interesting to say the least.

It increases the Heisei films appeal to me.

Any movies disliked that much must have something going for them.
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Kaiju-King42 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:26 am

Most of the post-1991 Heisei movies discounting Spacegodzilla) were better than Godzilla vs King Ghidorah, I guess.

Cool monster designs? Again, for the most part.
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:01 am

Ivo-goji wrote:The strenuous insistence that the Heisei series is not good and was never thought of as good and the futility of trying to prove otherwise with tangible data from Godzilla "fans" is interesting to say the least.

It increases the Heisei films appeal to me.

Any movies disliked that much must have something going for them.


Yes, really mediocre directing. :^)
BARAGONBREH wrote:To be frank, your opinions on how a design ought to be judged ranks near the bottom of anyone on the forum, after you advocated for Ghidorah having wheels for feet and rainbow lasers during your weird argument that audiences don't care how laughable SFX look.


Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)

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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby KaijuCanuck » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:23 am

To be honest I don’t really understand placing the divide at 1991, to me GvKG feels right in company with the later films in terms of style, effects, direction, cinematography, music, everything pretty much. If there were to be a line in the heisei series it would be 1989 - the two 80s films feel much more like an organic package than they would if you threw GvKG in there with them.
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Re: Say something positive about post-1991 Heisei

Postby Zarm » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:41 am

I think people tend to see it as more of a writing-quality/cinematography divide? Personally, I would agree with you, however.

And honestly, for me, nearly every film still has a redeeming feature:
-King Ghidorah has the most interesting plot
-Vs. Mothra has a great new kaiju design, and some really great visuals (the underwater fight and volcano emergence, the 3-way battle at times, the Mothra-sumonging sequence).
-Vs. MechaGodzilla II has a really great teaser sequence, and the Godzilla/Rodan fight is pretty cool.
-Vs. SpaceGodzilla has a great score, some really nice effects and eye-candy, and some great monster designs.
-Vs. Destroyah has the incredible Burning Godzilla suit, some nice (albeit abstractly-connected) continuity, and some genuinely impactful moments, including the finale.
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