Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Godzillian » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:41 pm

Anguirus wrote:I didn't care for Gamera 3 either, I felt it was boring with not enough action, and the non action scenes weren't good enough to hold on their own.

If that's how you feel then you missed the entire point of the action scenes
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby edgaguirus » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:35 pm

I feel the human scenes set up the kaiju action. We have Anya feeding her hatred of Gamera to Irys as much as Irys twist Anya for its own purposes, for example. Things like that set up and provide drive for the conflict between Gamera and Irys.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby LegendZilla » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:50 am

If I were Ayana’s boyfriend or whatever, I could’ve done a better job at reasoning with her.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:53 am

LegendZilla wrote:If I were Ayana’s boyfriend or whatever, I could’ve done a better job at reasoning with her.


:freak:
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby LegendZilla » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:55 am

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:If I were Ayana’s boyfriend or whatever, I could’ve done a better job at reasoning with her.


:freak:


I would’ve told her that it could’ve just as easily been Gyaos who killed her family or stated that even if Gamera did do it, it could not of have been intentional.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Zarm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:59 am

I don't know if that would have helped. Anger and grief aren't rational. And even if it was unintentional, I don't think that would matter. Either Gamera or Gyaos were responsible; Gyaos is dead. Gamera's the only one left to hate- to punish.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby HillyHulk » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:55 pm

This movie was pretty dang good. What makes me like this movie is the villain. It could be me looking deeper into it then I should, but Iris is the most sympathetic villain kaiju I ever saw in a kaiju movie. That mostly comes from the fact it never really was a villain, just a product of its mother's hate doing what she wanted before she realized she was wrong. Also, I like the design of Iris, pretty much already said I like the unique story (for a Gamera film, anyway), and the fights were enjoyable.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby PitchBlackProgress » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:19 am

This movie came off as a mess to me
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Desghidorah » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:21 am

It has some really good ideas to me, but Gamera's massive shift in behavior and the film ardent craving to never explain anything grind my gears a bit. The action scenes as always are fantastic, but I really wish the films top playing "Guess what this means!" and said something straight.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby KillCrites » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:57 am

LegendZilla wrote:If I were Ayana’s boyfriend or whatever, I could’ve done a better job at reasoning with her.
I would’ve told her that it could’ve just as easily been Gyaos who killed her family or stated that even if Gamera did do it, it could not of have been intentional.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Ivo-goji » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:07 pm

Desghidorah wrote:It has some really good ideas to me, but Gamera's massive shift in behavior and the film ardent craving to never explain anything grind my gears a bit. The action scenes as always are fantastic, but I really wish the films top playing "Guess what this means!" and said something straight.

What about the story was unexplained?
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Desghidorah » Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:35 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:
Desghidorah wrote:It has some really good ideas to me, but Gamera's massive shift in behavior and the film ardent craving to never explain anything grind my gears a bit. The action scenes as always are fantastic, but I really wish the films top playing "Guess what this means!" and said something straight.

What about the story was unexplained?


Either unexplained or they offered up multiple ideas without clarifying which one it was.

-What is Iris' origin? Is it another Anti-Gyaos measure with that phoenix parallel? A means to kill Gamera by the Atlanteans? A mutant gyaos? A demon?

-Was Iris acting malicious of its own accord or did Ayana cause it to go off the beaten path?

-Why is Gamera not giving a rats ass about humans caught in the crossfire one moment and then minding to help Ayana in the end?

-What are Shinya Kurata and Mito Asakura rambling on about?

-What was exactly going on with the Gamera graveyard?


Doesn't make me dislike the movie per say, just not maybe enjoy it quite as much as others. I can definitely see the genius at play though.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Ivo-goji » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:04 pm

Desghidorah wrote:-What is Iris' origin? Is it another Anti-Gyaos measure with that phoenix parallel?

The timing of his creation is unknown, but the Gamera graveyard hints that there were multiple efforts to produce Guardians before they succeeded with the current Gamera, and Irys is probably an early stage in the process.

Irys' connection with the Suzaku symbol was only made by Ayana. How literal the mythical parallels are supposed to be is intentionally open ended.

A means to kill Gamera by the Atlanteans? A mutant gyaos?

Irys wants to fight Gamera because of Ayana's influence. He's genetically similar to Gyaos because they're both products of Atlantean engineering.

A demon?

That's just the legend that's grown around him in Moribe's village.

-Was Iris acting malicious of its own accord or did Ayana cause it to go off the beaten path?

He's pretty clearly being influenced by Ayana. How exactly he was intended to function before making contact with her doesn't matter within the scope of the film, but the way he bonds with humans is just like what Gamera does with Asagi, so possibly Irys would have been less destructive if he had a different host.

-Why is Gamera not giving a rats ass about humans caught in the crossfire one moment and then minding to help Ayana in the end?

He lost his connection to humanity in the previous film when Asagi destroyed the magatama. He chooses to save Ayana because he hasn't completely lost sight of his purpose.

-What are Shinya Kurata and Mito Asakura rambling on about?

Explaining most of these questions!

-What was exactly going on with the Gamera graveyard?

Previous attempts by Atlantis to create a protector that could harness Earth's mana- as Kurata described it.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Desghidorah » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:54 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:The timing of his creation is unknown, but the Gamera graveyard hints that there were multiple efforts to produce Guardians before they succeeded with the current Gamera, and Irys is probably an early stage in the process.

Irys' connection with the Suzaku symbol was only made by Ayana. How literal the mythical parallels are supposed to be is intentionally open ended.


"Irys is probably an early stage in the process."
"intentionally open ended."

Still being a bit unclear there buddy. I do really appreciate you taking the time for this though and I really, really hope I don't come off as a smart***. Not intended at all.


Irys wants to fight Gamera because of Ayana's influence. He's genetically similar to Gyaos because they're both products of Atlantean engineering.


So is Gamera and Gamera was never shown as similar to the gyaos. Not to mention Ayana mentions, in a way that implies Iris "told her" through their bond that Gamera killed its family too, which seems to lend ideas to Iris being a mutant gyaos (the aforementioned 'family'). The gyaos' adaptive traits, vaguely similar head shapes, and their similar beams seem to back this a bit. This is part of where the confusion comes as there seem to be hints Iris is a gyaos and not hostile towards them, but just as many to suggest Iris was made to fight the gyaos... and others it was made to fight Gamera... You see where I get a little confused?


A demon?
That's just the legend that's grown around him in Moribe's village.


Kurata and Asakura call Iris a demon multiple times as well.


He's pretty clearly being influenced by Ayana. How exactly he was intended to function before making contact with her doesn't matter within the scope of the film, but the way he bonds with humans is just like what Gamera does with Asagi, so possibly Irys would have been less destructive if he had a different host.


I defer to the scene Iris showed Ayana it killing her adoptive family when they fused. There's also a line in the background that when Iris rampaged through her town in its juvenile form, it killed much more women than men. That line could lend credence to it being influenced as Ayana and her family's bullies were all female; but the vision itself is what makes it confusing. Was Iris, after forcing the bond, trying to torment Ayana out of malice or trying to show her what it did for her out of some misplaced morality?


He lost his connection to humanity in the previous film when Asagi destroyed the magatama. He chooses to save Ayana because he hasn't completely lost sight of his purpose.


So he saves the girl who arguably causes all this mess because he accidentally killed one family in the first movie, and doesn't care at all to move the downed hyper gyaos out of a populated area before firing a plasma ball into the ground with thousands of people in the crossfire?


-What are Shinya Kurata and Mito Asakura rambling on about?
Explaining most of these questions!


If they said anything that made direct sense, I missed it and I apologize. Most of the time it came off as ramblings that Iris was a demon made to kill Gamera for unstated reasons or that Iris was another anti-Gyaos weapon.


-What was exactly going on with the Gamera graveyard?
Previous attempts by Atlantis to create a protector that could harness Earth's mana- as Kurata described it.


I was thinking it was that but honestly that guy rants so much I could never be sure. Any reason why they all look like Gamera when it seems Atlantis changed its monster designs every time they made something?
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Ivo-goji » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:57 pm

Desghidorah wrote:
"Irys is probably an early stage in the process."
"intentionally open ended."

Still being a bit unclear there buddy.

The viewer is given enough information to draw conclusions on their own. The movie doesn't have to spoon feed the audience.

So is Gamera and Gamera was never shown as similar to the gyaos.

He IS similar to Irys given they both bond with humans through magatama. Each stage of the Atlanteans' project carried over certain features from the previous one, while discarding things that didn't work.

Not to mention Ayana mentions, in a way that implies Iris "told her" through their bond that Gamera killed its family too, which seems to lend ideas to Iris being a mutant gyaos (the aforementioned 'family'). The gyaos' adaptive traits, vaguely similar head shapes, and their similar beams seem to back this a bit. This is part of where the confusion comes as there seem to be hints Iris is a gyaos and not hostile towards them, but just as many to suggest Iris was made to fight the gyaos... and others it was made to fight Gamera... You see where I get a little confused?

Whether or not Irys was designed to fight the Gyaos doesn't really matter. He may have been created for the same purpose as the Gyaos (whatever their original object was) or he might have been made to fight them. Either way he latched on to Ayana's hatred of Gamera and made that his motivation.

Kurata and Asakura call Iris a demon multiple times as well.

So? They also know the kaiju were created by Atlantis. To them there's no difference between a supernatural and a scientific origin for Irys and Gamera.


Was Iris, after forcing the bond, trying to torment Ayana out of malice or trying to show her what it did for her out of some misplaced morality?

My reading of those scenes suggests the latter.

So he saves the girl who arguably causes all this mess because he accidentally killed one family in the first movie, and doesn't care at all to move the downed hyper gyaos out of a populated area before firing a plasma ball into the ground with thousands of people in the crossfire?

That's called having a character arc: his behavior *changed over the course of the movie*.

If they said anything that made direct sense, I missed it and I apologize.

I forgive you.

Any reason why they all look like Gamera when it seems Atlantis changed its monster designs every time they made something?

Again, spoon feeding. We don't need to see a bonepile of aborted Irys and Gyaos prototypes for the movie to make sense.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Desghidorah » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:21 am

Ivo-goji wrote:The viewer is given enough information to draw conclusions on their own. The movie doesn't have to spoon feed the audience.


Okay gotta record scratch that. Because by that logic any movie ever that has given an origin to its monster is 'spoon feeding' the audience from Gojira 1954 to Pacific Rim. My entire gripe (and I note again, not a big enough one I find it bad, just a chink in the rating) with Gamera 3 is it keeps being vague about the details. Does it really change the plot? No. But what matters is in the eye of the beholder and if a film's monsters history can go a long way to explaining why it is behaving the way it is, I kinda want something a bit concrete even if one has to think on it for a bit.

A counterexample is the Graboids from Tremors. In the first film nothing is really shown to explain what they were or where they came from, other than the sequels and prequel suggesting them to be ancient. However, it doesn't particularly matter in their case as the Graboids never behave in a way that their origin would be relevant. They're basically just normal, albeit clever predators that act like land-sharks.

Iris, however, is clearly cerebral and has a motive of some sort. But why it wants what it wants and what exactly is its will and what is Ayana's is always vague. An origin could help explain this, but again, vague.

He IS similar to Irys given they both bond with humans through magatama. Each stage of the Atlanteans' project carried over certain features from the previous one, while discarding things that didn't work.


Except the film also supports the idea Iris was made after Gamera and even might have been intended to be a Gamera killer. Not only does this lead to the questioning of why the Atlanteans would make something to kill their own protector, but the question of why Iris lacked any runes or message tied to it. Adding back in the 'family' notion and the Hollywood evolution at play with the Gyaos, one could say there is just as much to suggest Iris is a gyaos who 'evolved' a parallel to Gamera. Given what other kaiju films then and since had as 'evolution', is this really too far fetched?


Whether or not Irys was designed to fight the Gyaos doesn't really matter. He may have been created for the same purpose as the Gyaos (whatever their original object was) or he might have been made to fight them. Either way he latched on to Ayana's hatred of Gamera and made that his motivation.


Except there is just as much to suggest Iris had elements of malice too it even without Ayana influencing it. Again the vagueness of the visions it showed her and her mental torment when bonded to it lends to differing possibilities.



Was Iris, after forcing the bond, trying to torment Ayana out of malice or trying to show her what it did for her out of some misplaced morality?
My reading of those scenes suggests the latter.


Again though, multiple ways to read it. Iris certainly didn't shy away from trying to kill or maim people Ayana had no connection to so it is possible malign.

So he saves the girl who arguably causes all this mess because he accidentally killed one family in the first movie, and doesn't care at all to move the downed hyper gyaos out of a populated area before firing a plasma ball into the ground with thousands of people in the crossfire?

That's called having a character arc: his behavior *changed over the course of the movie*.


And the cause of it is?


Again, spoon feeding. We don't need to see a bonepile of aborted Irys and Gyaos prototypes for the movie to make sense.

Except again, more than one way to read it. All those prototypes looked pretty complete and I've seen others suggest they were the remains of Gamera who fell in the original outbreak of the gyaos. Plus if Iris were a prototype or in the same 'production line' as Gamera, one would expect to see other monsters besides Gamera corpses present.
Plus given Mr. "THIS IS SO SCARY!" is near constantly cackling or grinning like a maniac and his cohort dies instantly after trying an invokation she thinks will work, it doesn't exactly lend their hypothesis to the best validity.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Maritonic » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:30 am

I always assumed Gamera saved Ayana due to Ayako being concerned about her, and there being some residual connection between the Ayako and Gamera still. But it's not like Gamera was out there intentionally roasting people; we've seen Godzilla wreck buildings (presumably killing tons of people) while still being the "hero" and saving people. I wouldn't look too deep into it, personally.

Same thing with the Iris-demon stuff. Metaphorical. They call the Alien a "demon" in Alien 3.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby Grievous » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:51 am

*Looks around for a few seconds*

I've honestly always preferred Gamera 2: Advent of Legion...

I mean Gamera 3 looks better & the fight scenes are epic...
but I like Gamera 2 as an overall film more.

I think its just because I like those old 1950's Giant bug
movies...and this is technically a Japanese version of
one of those films with Gamera fighting the good fight.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby LegendZilla » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:38 pm

Someone else on this thread say that the quote-on-quote human villains are there to explain the themes of the film. How does explaining what's currently going on and how things will come into full circle make you evil?!
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Postby GojiDog » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:10 am

Gamera 3 is a personal favorite of mine, both within the Gamera series and for kaiju movies in general.

However, it was kind of like for kaiju movies what Nolan films were for cinema for a while in that, it got a ton of praise and if you point out things wrong with it, well, then you must be stupid.

The things I love about it:
- More so than perhaps any other movie of its kind, this movie really tackles the whole idea of what it means to have a giant freaking monster as a guardian, in that, yeah Gamera might be saving the world, but hundreds if not thousands of people die whenever he shows up. Most Godzilla movies skirt around this by having the city abandoned to make sure the hero monster doesn't have blood on his hands (G2K comes to mind) but here, Gamera destroys the Gyoases, but at a great cost. And that city destruction scene is downright horrifying, possibly my favorite city trashing scene since the original Gojira. It really doesn't feel like humanity is being unreasonable for wanting to attack Gamera when you see the amount of destruction his mere presence causes.

- Building off of that, I like this particular take on Gamera in that we really don't know until the end if he's trying to save humanity at all. Gamera in this movie feels distant and with tunnel vision laser focus to kill his enemies above all else.

- Iris is one of the more unique kaiju I've ever seen. It seemed to draw some inspiration from Pokémon with its constant evolving, but also from vampires, Lovecraftian monsters, and other hellish beats of fantasy, and the, uh, "bond" with Ayana makes for a nice core for the story. Ayana's bitterness and thirst for revenge literally takes the form of a monster and that is the driving force of the film. All of that stuff was creepy, weird, tragic, and everything inbetween.

- It was nice to see the main characters from Gamera 1 return and close out the series. They could have easily just had a new cast of characters (like they did with G2...for the most part) but it was nice to see the original cast return and the series more of a proper ending.

- The visuals in this film are striking. Not only is the monster action graphic and gory with well executed practical effects and CGI, but there are just many cool looking shots. I watched the film with my sister and when we got to the part where Gamera and Iris have their standoff and we see them in still images encircled by fire before finally cutting to Ayana, that all looked great and my sister commented that "This looks like a manga come to life".

- I love the ending! A wounded and defiant Gamera marches off through a fiery city landscape to certain death at the hands of 1000s of Gyoases as his theme music swells up before fading to black...its so perfect! Its like an old Samurai film or Spaghetti western, and I appreciate a little ambiguity as well.

What I Didn't Like:
- Did we really need human villains in this? I felt like we were well covered as far as antagonists go with Iris and to an extent Ayana. And Asakura and Kurata never really do anything. They are just scowling weirdos.

- The graveyard of Gameras was a stunning image and all...but there was really no payoff to it beyond exposition of Gamera's history and past. I don't know, but I felt like there could have been more done with that idea.

- Using Sega Dreamcasts to explain manna: Yeah, that's just silly, and horribly dated, lol.


So yeah, it is a great kaiju flick, but not without its flaws, which I am more than happy to point out. But the good far outweighs the bad.


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