Gamera 3 : Really that good?

[Ivo-goji]

These "over complications" sound audience induced rather than something the movie did wrong.

Irys wasn't a countermeasure for Gamera, for one thing. It was another attempt at creating a protector for humanity, Ayana's hatred towards Gamera gave it a funny idea of who needed protecting from what. The Gamera graveyard seen at the beginning of the film establishes the project to create the Guardian of the Universe went through many failed stages before arriving at the finished product. There's nothing confusing about this.

[eabaker]

Ayana's hatred towards Gamera gave it a funny idea of who needed protecting from what.

Just brought this point up on another board, where someone was wishing that there was more to establish Irys corrupting Ayana, which to me is a fundamental misinterpretation of what's going on.

[Kenpachiro Hirata]

The plot is overcomplicated, for sure. The story is pretty simple, though.

Which is another problem, but it's not the core so I won't go deep into it right now.

Irys wasn't a countermeasure for Gamera, for one thing. It was another attempt at creating a protector for humanity, Ayana's hatred towards Gamera gave it a funny idea of who needed protecting from what. The Gamera graveyard seen at the beginning of the film establishes the project to create the Guardian of the Universe went through many failed stages before arriving at the finished product. There's nothing confusing about this.

Graveyard full of Gamera skeletons and nothing else.
If Irys is a prototype then why it wasn't destroyed too?
And again, why base it on something that didn't work and now has to be destroyed?

someone was wishing that there was more to establish Irys corrupting Ayana, which to me is a fundamental misinterpretation of what's going on.

That's exactly what was goin' on and pretty much the only thing about Irys that isn't vague.
Ayana was indeed manipulated by Irys. It's painfully obvious unless you're willin' to skip the fact that Ayana feels ill and not her self before the first merge and later acts like a hypnotized zombie but snaps out of it right before the creature sucks her into its body against her will.

sound audience induced rather than something the movie did wrong.

Addin' this excuse to my collection, thanks.
Good companion piece for the "good film is subjective" one.

[eabaker]

someone was wishing that there was more to establish Irys corrupting Ayana, which to me is a fundamental misinterpretation of what's going on.

That's exactly what was goin' on and pretty much the only thing about Irys that isn't vague.
Ayana was indeed manipulated by Irys. It's painfully obvious unless you're willin' to skip the fact that Ayana feels ill and not her self before the first merge and later acts like a hypnotized zombie and but snaps out of it right before the creature sucks her into its body against her will.

The bond with Irys was taking a physical, emotional and psychological toll on her for sure. But the two characters' motivations seem to be more intermingled than you're giving them credit for. Irys takes advantage of Ayana's feelings, but he doesn't create them.

[SonOfGorgo]

Personally, I like all three equally.

[Kenpachiro Hirata]

See, you skipped the "Gyaos" angle yet again even tho I keep bringin' it up.

It's intentional that the creature is related to Gyaos. It kills animals in the woods, kills people in the area, etc. Ayana has nothing to do with the fact that Irys acts like Gyaos.

No idea why Irys had the need to merge with Ayana tho, outside of it bein' part of the whole anti-Gamera concept... Just another fdup thing about this movie.

[eabaker]

This conversation isn't exactly a smooth, clear back-and-forth. We're talking at cross-purposes, points from different people are getting run together as though they're part of a single argument... basically, right now this conversation is a lot more convoluted than the plot of GIII. Stepping away for the moment.

[Godzillian]

Ayana's hatred towards Gamera gave it a funny idea of who needed protecting from what.

Just brought this point up on another board, where someone was wishing that there was more to establish Irys corrupting Ayana, which to me is a fundamental misinterpretation of what's going on.

In the Gamera vs Barugon manga, meant to bridge legion and Irys, it discusses how a few monsters were made to fight Gyaos before Gamera. Gamera is the "final version", the rest are scrapped. Irys appears with the scrapped monsters which are Zigra, Jiger, and Barugon.

[Ivo-goji]

Graveyard full of Gamera skeletons and nothing else.

If you need the movie to hold your hand to understand what's going on that's your fault.

If Irys is a prototype then why it wasn't destroyed too?

Kurata's exposition implied that the other prototypes failed to survive because they couldn't harness the Mana properly, not that they were destroyed. Irys is still around because it didn't have that problem, and Gamera was created because once they overcame the design flaw they had a Guardian even stronger than Irys.

And again, why base it on something that didn't work and now has to be destroyed?

I don't know, why does Lex Luthor keep making Kryptonian clones to kill Superman, or Dr. Eggman keep making Sonic based robots to kill Sonic? Even though these creations often end up going rogue?

The ancient civilization wouldn't be in the position they were in if they did everything perfectly. You seriously believe this is a writer error? And not one of the most common tropes in fiction? That the concept of "fight fire with fire" (and that this can go horribly wrong) needs to be explained to the viewer on-screen? Seriously?

sound audience induced rather than something the movie did wrong.

Addin' this excuse to my collection, thanks.
Good companion piece for the "good film is subjective" one.

If your mentality is really that all fired arrogant, by all means, feel free to think that way. It doesn't help your argument in the slightest.

[Kaltes-Herzeleid]

In the Gamera vs Barugon manga, meant to bridge legion and Irys, it discusses how a few monsters were made to fight Gyaos before Gamera. Gamera is the "final version", the rest are scrapped. Irys appears with the scrapped monsters which are Zigra, Jiger, and Barugon.

Yup. My running hypothesis is that the Gyaos DNA is just naturally evil or just prone to corrupting with it and Iris became evil because of that. Plus I know I've brought up in the past that Iris' name in the kanji representation means "Evil God" or "False God." His name alone is a clever hint to his true nature, and given that having Gyaos DNA makes him natural enemy towards Gamera, sensing Ayana's hate of Gamera meant he could finally awaken and use her to his advantage.

It's also worth noting the cultists belief that Gamera is an evil spirit is ironically the reverse of what turtles usually represent (though definitely not unintentional), considering that in the Far East the turtle is regarded as a mystical creature who's magic unites heaven and earth, the shell being considered a symbol of heaven itself.

If you need the movie to hold your hand to understand what's going on that's your fault.

Pretty much. If people would just do a bit research of the spiritual elements of the movie it'd make a lot more sense.

[Ivo-goji]

If people would just do a bit research of the spiritual elements of the movie it'd make a lot more sense.

I feel like even that's not really necessary, since the scene where Ryuseicho/Iris is compared to the symbol for Suzaku (the bird) and Ayane connects Gamera with the its "rival" Genbu (the turtle) should give viewers the gist of what the esoteric elements in the story mean, even if they're otherwise unfamiliar with the cultural context.

[Cybermat47]

And again, why base it on something that didn't work and now has to be destroyed?

I don't know, why does Lex Luthor keep making Kryptonian clones to kill Superman, or Dr. Eggman keep making Sonic based robots to kill Sonic? Even though these creations often end up going rogue?

I agree with what you’re saying, Ivo, but I don’t think that other fictional examples are really the best to bring up. Those are results of familiarity resulting in better marketability.

The creation of Gamera makes me think more of Germany keeping the Bf-109 in service for 8 years rather than replacing them with Fw-190s and Me-262s, or Britain continuing to use muskets as standard issue in the Napoleonic Wars despite the invention of the rifle. New technology is resource-consuming and takes time to perfect. Far more efficient to improve and refine what you already have.

[Kenpachiro Hirata]

In the Gamera vs Barugon manga, meant to bridge legion and Irys, it discusses how a few monsters were made to fight Gyaos before Gamera. Gamera is the "final version", the rest are scrapped. Irys appears with the scrapped monsters which are Zigra, Jiger, and Barugon.

That manga was released 4 years after ROI.
You may count it as official canon but in reality none of it was part of the original intent.

Kurata's exposition implied that the other prototypes failed to survive because they couldn't harness the Mana properly, not that they were destroyed. Irys is still around because it didn't have that problem, and Gamera was created because once they overcame the design flaw they had a Guardian even stronger than Irys.

1. That's just another Kurata's assumption, which can be true or false considering that he is portrayed as narcissist with mental disorder
2. In ROI Irys wasn't even born yet so the whole "prototype" theory doesn't work anyway

The ancient civilization wouldn't be in the position they were in if they did everything perfectly. You seriously believe this is a writer error? And not one of the most common tropes in fiction? That the concept of "fight fire with fire" (and that this can go horribly wrong) needs to be explained to the viewer on-screen? Seriously?

It's common sense to lern from your mistakes. If they were advanced enough to create new species than they should've been smart enough not to step on the same rake twice. And it has nothing to do with tropes, more like poor attempt at retroactive continuity.

I really don't understand why you're so saulty about this thing... It's not like these movies are some kind of timeless pieces of art. And it's not like I bash the movie in any way, because it's actually pretty cool and I like it. The fact that it a poor sequel doesn't mean I hate it.

[Godzillian]

Image of all the guardian monsters before Gamera. Irys was probably corrupted by that chick, the reason he woke up was probably due to a lack of mana on the planet. It was a baby Irys so it may have just been a left over one or placed on purpose in case Gyaos awoke again. Gamera and Barugon were burried by Atlantis, so I see no reason why Irys couldn't be.

[Zarm]

2. In ROI Irys wasn't even born yet so the whole "prototype" theory doesn't work anyway

But Irys had already been created and sealed away, so eat it at some prior point. They may have decided to scrap the project at the initial stages after successfully achieving what it was they wanted to do with Mana harvesting or whatever, but they clearly had already made it, so that doesn't really stand in the way of the prototype theory.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant by this statement?

[Ivo-goji]

I agree with what you’re saying, Ivo, but I don’t think that other fictional examples are really the best to bring up. Those are results of familiarity resulting in better marketability.

The creation of Gamera makes me think more of Germany keeping the Bf-109 in service for 8 years rather than replacing them with Fw-190s and Me-262s, or Britain continuing to use muskets as standard issue in the Napoleonic Wars despite the invention of the rifle. New technology is resource-consuming and takes time to perfect. Far more efficient to improve and refine what you already have.

That's true, the in-universe reason Irys is genetically similar to a Gyaos is simply that they were both made by Atlantis. Technological progress isn't instantaneous, they would have been hard pressed to come up with an entirely new template after they lost control of the Gyaos.

For all we know, Irys could have been made before the Gyaos went rogue; given how it adapts to suit Ayane's "mission" throughout the story, Irys's original functions might have been completely different.

1. That's just another Kurata's assumption, which can be true or false considering that he is portrayed as narcissist

That has nothing to do with anything, the question you asked was why Irys wasn't destroyed like the other prototypes, the answer is no one in the movie said they were destroyed (intentionally or systematically).

2. In ROI Irys wasn't even born yet so the whole "prototype" theory doesn't work anyway

Irys was in suspended animation, just like Gamera at the beginning of Guardian of the Universe. The villagers had known about its presence for generations, of course it was around in ancient times.

And it has nothing to do with tropes, more like poor attempt at retroactive continuity.

How? Irys was introduced in this one movie, how was continuity revised? What contradicts what was established before?

And it's not like I bash the movie in any way, because it's actually pretty cool and I like it.

You're free to feel however you like about the film.

But if you're throwing around bs about how the quality of a film isn't subjective when your objections to it are misinformed or nonsensical, then yes people are going to tell you why you're wrong.

[LegendZilla]

^I’ve noticed that some of you guys pointed out that this movie’s ending is meant to be open ended, which is not quite the same as a cliffhanger. I guess the ending of GvD with the adult Junior in 1995 can be seen the same way if I’m not mistaken.

[Zarm]

Definitely. The promise that the adventure will continue, even if the audience won't be able to see it.

[Anguirus]

I didn't care for Gamera 3 either, I felt it was boring with not enough action, and the non action scenes weren't good enough to hold on their own.

[edgaguirus]

A fan made film did continue where the film left off.