The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

[eabaker]

Actually, I was incorrect about Godzilla not recovering from the ANEB. Emi actually states that Godzilla defends Japan, though she didn't say from what.

Really? I would have sworn that initially the Futurians claim that Godzilla destroys Japan, and later Emi says that the truth is that Godzilla never recovered. Again, this could be a disparity in translations. I really should sit one of my Japanese-speaking friends down in front of this movie and go over the dialogue with a fine toothed comb.

[kamilleblu]

Actually, I was incorrect about Godzilla not recovering from the ANEB. Emi actually states that Godzilla defends Japan, though she didn't say from what.

Really? I would have sworn that initially the Futurians claim that Godzilla destroys Japan, and later Emi says that the truth is that Godzilla never recovered. Again, this could be a disparity in translations. I really should sit one of my Japanese-speaking friends down in front of this movie and go over the dialogue with a fine toothed comb.

Yeah. Emi mentions this during her first meeting with Kenichiro after she decides to betray Wilson. About 38 minutes into the film, she claims that their original story was a lie. Nuclear weapons were banned at the end of the 20th century and Japan's rise was unpreventable. Wilson needed something to destroy Japan before the 21st century and needed to remove Godzilla.
Note: Used the TriStar Dub.

[eabaker]

Actually, I was incorrect about Godzilla not recovering from the ANEB. Emi actually states that Godzilla defends Japan, though she didn't say from what.

Really? I would have sworn that initially the Futurians claim that Godzilla destroys Japan, and later Emi says that the truth is that Godzilla never recovered. Again, this could be a disparity in translations. I really should sit one of my Japanese-speaking friends down in front of this movie and go over the dialogue with a fine toothed comb.

Yeah. Emi mentions this during her first meeting with Kenichiro after she decides to betray Wilson. About 38 minutes into the film, she claims that their original story was a lie. Nuclear weapons were banned at the end of the 20th century and Japan's rise was unpreventable. Wilson needed something to destroy Japan before the 21st century and needed to remove Godzilla.
Note: Used the TriStar Dub.

I'll check my subbed (bootleg) DVD tonight and see what she says in that version.

[DrBreakfastMachine]

Did you even read my first post? In the movie Godzilla intercepts the sub and destroys it immediately after it launches, then comes ashore in Japan right afterwards. He didn't go back to the Bering Sea. He was right off the coast of Japan the entire time, asleep until the nuclear energy of the sub got his attention. The only reason the JSDF knew where he was is because he had being laying in the same spot perfectly still for three years. We all know that as soon as Godzilla starts to move, nobody ever has a clue where he is until he comes ashore again.

Except you are forgetting they have infrared images of Godzilla in the Bering Sea in the film, he wasn't off the coast of Japan.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2jfn7yh.jpg

My answer is that they were picking up the nuclear waste from the sub that crashed in the 70s and not Godzilla. It's just a big blob on the radar, it could be anything.

[Mr. Xeno]

My Allah, all this time-travel discussion makes me want to rewatch this film NAOW just to make sense of it all.

[szmigiel]

Did you even read my first post? In the movie Godzilla intercepts the sub and destroys it immediately after it launches, then comes ashore in Japan right afterwards. He didn't go back to the Bering Sea. He was right off the coast of Japan the entire time, asleep until the nuclear energy of the sub got his attention. The only reason the JSDF knew where he was is because he had being laying in the same spot perfectly still for three years. We all know that as soon as Godzilla starts to move, nobody ever has a clue where he is until he comes ashore again.

Except you are forgetting they have infrared images of Godzilla in the Bering Sea in the film, he wasn't off the coast of Japan.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2jfn7yh.jpg

My answer is that they were picking up the nuclear waste from the sub that crashed in the 70s and not Godzilla. It's just a big blob on the radar, it could be anything.

That is not a photoshopped picture, that is a screen grab of the actual subtitle. We have characters in the film saying Godzilla is in the Bering Sea, and it is right where they had teleported him in 1944.


And another screen cap shows the sub is off the Kamachatka coast which if you check google maps in part of Russia.


I will admit that both the sub and Godzilla travel at the speed of plot being wherever they are needed with no concern to how long that should take. But the film has Godzilla in the Bering Sea where he was teleported.

The film has sloppy writing. If things didn't change Godzilla shouldn't be in the Bering Sea. If things did change they wouldn't be publishing his book on the Birth of Godzilla, and the Japanese government shouldn't be talking about getting rid of Godzilla and bringing him back like they do. Also as pointed out up thread there is no reason they should have master cannons to fight Godzilla in the film either.

[Kaiser]

I just ignore the fact that the submarine is destroyed in the Bearing Sea and pretend it was destroyed in the Sea of Japan or Sea of Okhotsk instead. The time travel plot makes much more sense this way and I'm able to focus on enjoying the rest of the movie. It's definitely a plot hole, but one I think a lot of people place undue emphasis on and tend to over-analyze.

[szmigiel]

Here is a new theory

The Godzillasaurus on Lagos island is not the first (1954) or second (1984) Godzilla, but in fact a third Godzilla.

The first Godzilla dies by the oxygen destroyer in Tokyo Bay as seen in the original Gojira and Godzilla, King of the Monsters. (Gojra 1954, aka Godzilla King of the Monster)

The second Godzilla appears in 1984, attacks Tokyo and falls into the volcano (Return of Godzilla)

The second Godzilla emerges from the volcano in 1989, is infected with the ANEB, and battles Biollante. At the end of Godzilla Vs. Biollante Godzilla is slowly being killed by the ANEB in the Sea of Japan. (Godzilla Vs. Biollante)

The ANEB finish him off extinguishing his nuclear furnace conveniently enough right at same time as the events of Godzilla Vs. King Ghidorah. So what appears to be Godzilla vanishing is actually his nuclear furnace no long producing any heat to register. (Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah)

Miki Saegusa misidentifies the Godzillasaurus as the second Godzilla since it is the same species. (Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah)

The Godzillasaurus on Lagos Island would have died, but being transported to the Bering Sea preserves him in a cryogenic like state until he is mutated by the Soviet sub accident in the 70s. (Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah)

Then the Teiyo Group nuclear sub encounters the third Godzilla and mutates it into an even larger more powerful Godzilla. (Godzilla Vs. King Ghidorah)

A new infant Godzillasaurus is discovered on Adona Island. (Godzilla Vs. Mechagodzilla 2)

The extra energy the third Godzilla absorbs is enough where he does not need to feed for the rest of the Heisei films, but eventually causes his nuclear furnace to go critical causing him to mutate into Burning Godzilla. Or it could have been absorbing Rodan in Godzilla Vs. Mechagodzilla 2, or the battle with Space Godzilla (Godzilla Vs. Space Godzilla), the destruction of Birth Island, or any combination of these. (Godzilla Vs. Destroyer)

Godzilla Jr eventually becomes the fourth Godzilla. (Godzilla Vs. Destroyer)

[eabaker]

Is there any textual evidence to support that theory?

[LegendZilla]

^ BreakfastMachine, I really like you. I'd say you're the resident optimist around here.

[GodzillaRangerPrime]

Here is a new theory

The Godzillasaurus on Lagos island is not the first (1954) or second (1984) Godzilla, but in fact a third Godzilla.

The first Godzilla dies by the oxygen destroyer in Tokyo Bay as seen in the original Gojira and Godzilla, King of the Monsters. (Gojra 1954, aka Godzilla King of the Monster)

The second Godzilla appears in 1984, attacks Tokyo and falls into the volcano (Return of Godzilla)

The second Godzilla emerges from the volcano in 1989, is infected with the ANEB, and battles Biollante. At the end of Godzilla Vs. Biollante Godzilla is slowly being killed by the ANEB in the Sea of Japan. (Godzilla Vs. Biollante)

The ANEB finish him off extinguishing his nuclear furnace conveniently enough right at same time as the events of Godzilla Vs. King Ghidorah. So what appears to be Godzilla vanishing is actually his nuclear furnace no long producing any heat to register. (Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah)

Miki Saegusa misidentifies the Godzillasaurus as the second Godzilla since it is the same species. (Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah)

The Godzillasaurus on Lagos Island would have died, but being transported to the Bering Sea preserves him in a cryogenic like state until he is mutated by the Soviet sub accident in the 70s. (Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah)

Then the Teiyo Group nuclear sub encounters the third Godzilla and mutates it into an even larger more powerful Godzilla. (Godzilla Vs. King Ghidorah)

A new infant Godzillasaurus is discovered on Adona Island. (Godzilla Vs. Mechagodzilla 2)

The extra energy the third Godzilla absorbs is enough where he does not need to feed for the rest of the Heisei films, but eventually causes his nuclear furnace to go critical causing him to mutate into Burning Godzilla. Or it could have been absorbing Rodan in Godzilla Vs. Mechagodzilla 2, or the battle with Space Godzilla (Godzilla Vs. Space Godzilla), the destruction of Birth Island, or any combination of these. (Godzilla Vs. Destroyer)

Godzilla Jr eventually becomes the fourth Godzilla. (Godzilla Vs. Destroyer)

Damn this sounds good even though you can't prove or disprove that 84-89 Godzilla is different from 91-95 Godzilla based on the films

[Kaijuborn95]

I know this threat has been inactive for a long time but I need to put my two sense in on one thing I've seen people talking about: GvsKG should have removed 84 and GvB from history.

While it would have if Godzilla was mutated in the 90s, the movies aren't removed from history because Godzilla gets mutated in the 70s by nuclear subs(nuclear sub waste area, I don't remember), so the movies would still be within history.

[Destorogoji]

I know this threat has been inactive for a long time but I need to put my two sense in on one thing I've seen people talking about: GvsKG should have removed 84 and GvB from history.

While it would have if Godzilla was mutated in the 90s, the movies aren't removed from history because Godzilla gets mutated in the 70s by nuclear subs(nuclear sub waste area, I don't remember), so the movies would still be within history.

Yeah, the Futurians didn't changed anything, it was something like "predestinated" to happen. Like The Terminator: Kyle Reese doesn't knows he's John's father, but in the end, he conceives him "accidentaly"

[Rodan]

I know this threat has been inactive for a long time but I need to put my two sense in on one thing I've seen people talking about: GvsKG should have removed 84 and GvB from history.

While it would have if Godzilla was mutated in the 90s, the movies aren't removed from history because Godzilla gets mutated in the 70s by nuclear subs(nuclear sub waste area, I don't remember), so the movies would still be within history.

Yep; right on. The Futurians don't wind up rewriting the events of Godzilla's origins in the way they believed they were going to. Instead, they're participants in creating the second Godzilla that shows up in Godzilla '84 and vs. Biollante. When they go to try to create him "again" with Shindo's nuclear sub in 1991 -- surprise -- Godzilla's already around and the sub both cures him of the effects of the ANEB and causes further mutation.

However, it's worth pointing out that the movie is still muddled in its time-travel model, and doesn't conform neatly to a predestination paradox. Emi's future is constantly changing. When the Futurians first go back, Emi reveals that the truth is that the ANEB had kept Godzilla incapacitated, allowing Japan's meteoric economic rise that the Futurians had come back to prevent. When we see her back in her own time, searching for the remains of Ghidorah, her partner asks her if she wants to save Japan, that country that was doomed by Godzilla's attacks. Evidently by reawakening Gozilla in 1991, her future had genuinely altered. Presumably, some sort of more sustainable balance is caused by Godzilla doing some damage in '91, notably crippling Shindo's economic empire, but not too much before he's incapacitated once again by Mecha-King Ghidorah. (In which case ... the best outcome was that Godzilla killed certain people, but not too many? It's a little morally problematic.)

That ... doesn't really make any sense, but the movie paints itself into a corner. The circular nature of all the pre-'91 time travel seems well-defined, but it doesn't line up with the continual changes in the future, and there doesn't seem to be a lot to do about that.

I still love this movie, but it's best to think about its time-travel in really broad terms and just enjoy the way it grapples with Japan's economic status, relationship to the war, etc. That's the interesting stuff, on top of all the '60s-styled sci-fi fun.

[szmigiel]

It seems no matter the theory to explain everything, there is always one part in the movie that contradicts it.

Yes the soviet sub in the 1970's could have caused the creation of the Godzilla that attacks in 1984 and 1989. But they are closely monitoring Godzilla and he hadn't moved for a 1000 days fighting off the ANEB attack before the time travel. After the time travel he is 2,500 miles away in the Bering Straits, where he was teleported back in 1944.

We have the Futurians say Godzilla is gone from history, but Kenichiro gets a call that they are still publishing the book about the Birth of Godzilla. It is sloppy writing, I like the movie, but the time travel is half assed.

[Demon Lord Gira]

It seems no matter the theory to explain everything, there is always one part in the movie that contradicts it.

Yes the soviet sub in the 1970's could have caused the creation of the Godzilla that attacks in 1984 and 1989. But they are closely monitoring Godzilla and he hadn't moved for a 1000 days fighting off the ANEB attack before the time travel. After the time travel he is 2,500 miles away in the Bering Straits, where he was teleported back in 1944.

We have the Futurians say Godzilla is gone from history, but Kenichiro gets a call that they are still publishing the book about the Birth of Godzilla. It is sloppy writing, I like the movie, but the time travel is half assed.

A reminder that this is the same military that has shown to be incapable of reliably tracking Godzilla down in GvB ("Wait, we thought he was going to go for this place, but he suddenly appeared near this area!") Them thinking they knew where Godzilla was, only to suddenly spot him in a drastically different area fits with what we've seen of the JSDF's inability to reliably track down Godzilla.

[szmigiel]

A reminder that this is the same military that has shown to be incapable of reliably tracking Godzilla down in GvB ("Wait, we thought he was going to go for this place, but he suddenly appeared near this area!") Them thinking they knew where Godzilla was, only to suddenly spot him in a drastically different area fits with what we've seen of the JSDF's inability to reliably track down Godzilla.

True, but Godzilla position and not moving for over 1000 days in confirmed during the first act of the film. The futurians even stop over Godzilla location before landing and contact with the Japanese government. Then after time travel Godzilla is gone and 2,500 miles away.

[Mini-Godzilla]

The temporal loop sounds like a good solution at first, but it doesn't hold up. Here is my suggestion for how things played out.

Timeline A (Pre-Time Travel)

1944: A Godzillasaurus is spotted on Lagos Island and wards off the American military.
1954: Godzillasaurus is irradiated and attacks Tokyo before being killed by the Oxygen Destroyer.
1984: Over 30 years, Godzilla has slowly regenerated and grown larger. He awakens and attacks Tokyo.
1989: Godzilla is infected by bacteria that prevents him from attacking Japan again.
2204: The Futurians decide to stop Japan from becoming an unstoppable superpower.

Time Travel 1

The Futurians travel to 1992 of Timeline A and take some passengers with them.

Time Travel 2

The Futurians travel to 1944, teleport Godzillasaurus, and leave behind the Dorats.

Timeline B (Mid-Time Travel)

1944: A Godzillasaurus is spotted on Lagos Island and is transported away shortly afterward.
1954: The Dorats are irradiated by an H-bomb and become King Ghidorah.
1970s: Godzillasaurus is irradiated into an even bigger Godzilla through alternative means.
1990s: The monsters presumably destroy Japan enough to keep it from being a superpower.

Time Travel 3

The Futurians travel back to 1992, but which 1992?

Timeline A-B (Post-Time Travel)

1944-1992: See Timeline A.
1992: The return of the Futurians results in a paradox. Timeline B Godzilla displaces Timeline A Godzilla.

Explanation: Since they are returning from a place of origin, that place of origin must remain the same. They essentially came back to Timeline A. However, since their tampering resulted in them being a part of Timeline B, they actually created a Schrodinger's Godzilla: one that is both dying from the bacteria and living at an increased size simultaneously. Since (as the movie states) one person can't exist twice in the same time, the Timeline B Godzilla overwrites the Timeline A Godzilla in Timeline A's 1992. Everything up to the point of their return is still intact--the people who died from 1954-1989 still died, and Tokyo is still the Tokyo that sustained two major attacks from the monster. However, the Timeline A Godzilla disappears from existence from 1992 onward, and the Timeline B Godzilla appears out of thin air in Timeline A in the very spot where he would have been in Timeline B's 1992.

1992: Godzilla destroys Ghidorah, Tokyo, and the Futurian ship. Emmy decides to return to 2204.

Time Travel 4

Emmy arrives in the future of Timeline A-B, where Japan is no longer a superpower. She turns Ghidorah into a cyborg.

Time Travel 5

Emmy returns with Mecha-King Ghidorah and defeats Godzilla, resulting in Timeline A-B-2, where Godzilla doesn't destroy Japan. This modified timeline is the one seen in the later sequels.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

^Mini-Godzilla, the Godzillasaurus/Heisei Godzilla is completely different from G54, in which the Futurians dont mess with for some reason.

[GodzillaBurgh]

Geez, GvsKG's timeline is just as confusing as the X-Men movies' timeline.