The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

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The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby DrBreakfastMachine » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:32 pm

Are you confused by the time travel shenanigans that go on in Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah? I know I sure was the first several times I watched it. Let's be honest. That movie is really, truly confusing. However, as a nerd whose passions include both Godzilla and time-travel, I sat down and tried to figure out exactly what happens in this movie, how it happens, and what the ramifications are on the timeline of the series. Sci-fi Japan had a great article about this which came to the same general conclusion I did, but it's a very long read and it still leaves some unanswered questions, so I'm gonna try to cover everything I've learned as succinctly as possible.

The first and most important thing to understand is that, despite popular belief, nothing in the timeline was actually changed or erased as the result of the time travel in GvKG. It's an easy mistake to make, but no matter how many times you see a fan claim that the references made to Godzilla '54 and Godzilla vs. Biollante made in the later films are continuity errors because those movies were erased from history, it's not the case. The time travel in the movie operates using the "stable time loop" model, which means there is only one version of history which cannot be altered. Any changes you make in the past were actually there to begin with, and they will cause history to unfold exactly the same way it already did before you went back. This is also called the predestination paradox or the bootstrap paradox, since events seem to effectively cause themselves to happen, like a man somehow pulling himself into the air by tugging on his boots.

Now with that in mind, let's break down exactly what happens in this movie, step by step.

1. In 2204, the Futurians decide that they want to retroactively destroy Japan by erasing the second Godzilla from history and replacing him with a more dangerous monster which they can control. It's crucial to note that the original Godzilla, who attacked Tokyo in 1954 and was killed by the Oxygen destroyer, is totally unaffected by their schemes, and is a different creature from the one who attacks Japan in 1984. It's also important to remember that the Futurians are wrong when they believe that they can alter history.

2. The Futurians know that in 1944, Japanese soldiers encountered a dinosaur on Lagos Island, and in 1954 there was a hydrogen bomb test in the area, which they believe mutated the dinosaur into Godzilla. They are wrong again; while that hydrogen bomb test did mutate another dinosaur somewhere nearby into the Godzilla that attacked Tokyo later in 1954, it's unrelated to the Godzilla that they're dealing with. Acting on these false assumptions, the Futurians relocate the dinosaur to the Bering Sea, and think that they have prevented the second Godzilla's creation. In the dinosaur's place they leave the three dorats, which are mutated by the H-bomb into Ghidorah.

3. The Futurians jump to 1992 and command King Ghidorah to attack Japan. They are convinced that Godzilla has been erased, and this leads many fans to believe that they are right. However, everyone still remembers the second Godzilla existing, which is the first sign that he's still around. Many viewers also believe that history has been altered because Ghidorah is now a part of history when he wasn't before. However, the movie never gives any indication that Ghidorah attacks before 1992. It makes sense after all, since he's controlled by the Futurians, and from 1944 to 1992, they weren't there to order him around. In other words, Ghidorah was always a part of history, but he was hanging out on Lagos Island until 1992, so nobody knew about him until then.

4. It turns out that not only did the Futurians fail to prevent Godzilla from being created, they actually caused his creation. In the late 70s a Russian nuclear sub explodes in the Bering Sea, exposing the dinosaur there to even more radiation than the hydrogen bomb test would have, causing it to mutate into a Godzilla larger than the one that attacked in 1954. This new, larger Godzilla slowly makes his way to Japan, finally making landfall in 1984. Again, remember that this is all exactly how history went in the first place.

5. The people of 1992, mistakenly thinking that the dinosaur was never mutated into the second Godzilla, dispatch a nuclear sub to the Bering Sea to mutate him now. However, since Godzilla was never erased, he attacks the sub as soon as it embarks, growing from 80 meters to 100 meters. Most viewers don't catch this and believe that a new history has been created where the dinosaur really never was mutated until 1992, which would mean The Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs. Biollante never happened. Catching the detail that the sub finds a fully mutated Godzilla and mutates him further rather than reaching the Bering Sea and finding a normal dinosaur resolves this apparent erasure of the earlier films, and explains how people are able to reference them in the later films.

6. Now for some further timeline cleanup: Godzilla beats Ghidorah in 1992. In 2204, Ghidorah's remains are located and upgraded into Mecha-King Ghidorah, who is then sent back to 1992. Godzilla beats Mecha-King Ghidorah too. In 1994, Mecha-King Ghidorah's remains are used to construct Mecha Godzilla, but the remains of non-Mecha-Ghidorah are left alone, which is why they're still there in 2204 but the other set of remains isn't. Godzilla dies in 1996, as seen in Godzilla vs. Destoroyah, seemingly contradicting a moment whenThe Futurians reference Godzilla attacking Japan at dates far later than that. However, remember that Godzilla Jr. is still alive at the end of GvD, and has fully grown into an adult by that point. Since it's unclear if the Futurians even understand that the 1954 Godzilla and the 1984 Godzilla are different creatures, what are the chances they know the difference between the 1984 Godzilla and Godzilla Jr.?

So there you go. It's all one timeline without any contradictions now. It took a lot of work to decipher, but I honestly believe that what I've outlined above is the true intent of the writers- NOT the idea that the Futurians managed to actually alter history in any way like so many believe.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby kamilleblu » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:21 pm

Does that mean Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is smarter than most have given it credit for?

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby DrBreakfastMachine » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:00 pm

kamilleblu wrote:Does that mean Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is smarter than most have given it credit for?


Honestly, I think it's one of the smarter Godzilla films...or at least, in terms of the story. It's the dialogue that makes things confusing. I've never seen it in Japanese, but I have a feeling that a lot of the nuance of the plot got lost in translation when it comes to the godawful Tristar dub, which is what most people are familiar with. Like I said, I was confused by it at first and used to believe that it made swiss cheese of the series continuity, and it took a lot of effort to piece together the real chain of events, but once I did, it's actually one of the more consistent and elaborate uses of the whole time loop idea I've seen in a movie.

It's similar in that sense to the low-budget sci-fi thriller Primer, which has a very clever time travel plot which is almost impossible to actually understand because the dialogue makes it so unclear what the hell is going on, but in that case I think it was deliberate, whereas in GvKG I think it was an accident that things ended up so hard to follow.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby eabaker » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:27 pm

kamilleblu wrote:Does that mean Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is smarter than most have given it credit for?


Anyone using the degree to which the time travel makes sense to determine how smart a movie it is would seem to be missing the forest for the trees.
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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby kamilleblu » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:46 pm

eabaker wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:Does that mean Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is smarter than most have given it credit for?


Anyone using the degree to which the time travel makes sense to determine how smart a movie it is would seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

I've seen plenty of people say the time travel aspect is poorly written and makes no sense. Yet apparently the time travel does work, which is what I was getting at.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby DrBreakfastMachine » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:36 pm

I'm with kamilleblu on this. GvKG gets a bad rap, and a lot of it has to do with the plot holes the time travel supposedly created. If the time travel works out and doesn't leave those holes, then the movie deserves credit that it isn't getting.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby eabaker » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:23 am

And I don't exactly disagree with you. My point is just that the movie deserves credit it isn't getting on the grounds of its strengths as one of the most thematically nuanced films in the series, regardless of whether or not the time travel makes sense.
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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby szmigiel » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:47 am

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:The time travel in the movie operates using the "stable time loop" model, which means there is only one version of history which cannot be altered.

If the movie operates under the "stable time loop" model then almost everyone in the movie are massive idiots.

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:1. In 2204, the Futurians decide that they want to retroactively destroy Japan by erasing the second Godzilla from history and replacing him with a more dangerous monster which they can control. It's crucial to note that the original Godzilla, who attacked Tokyo in 1954 and was killed by the Oxygen destroyer, is totally unaffected by their schemes, and is a different creature from the one who attacks Japan in 1984. It's also important to remember that the Futurians are wrong when they believe that they can alter history.

I guess the Fururians only read the history of Godzilla until 1990, not bothering to read the history of how Godzilla fought King Ghidorah in 1992. If this was the "stable time loop" model then they would have read about it in the history books.

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:2. The Futurians know that in 1944, Japanese soldiers encountered a dinosaur on Lagos Island, and in 1954 there was a hydrogen bomb test in the area, which they believe mutated the dinosaur into Godzilla. They are wrong again; while that hydrogen bomb test did mutate another dinosaur somewhere nearby into the Godzilla that attacked Tokyo later in 1954, it's unrelated to the Godzilla that they're dealing with. Acting on these false assumptions, the Futurians relocate the dinosaur to the Bering Sea, and think that they have prevented the second Godzilla's creation. In the dinosaur's place they leave the three dorats, which are mutated by the H-bomb into Ghidorah.

I will go with the Heisei Godzilla is a different Godzilla then the one from 1954. So the 1954 attack would not be removed from history but the 1984 and 1989 should be. We see no onscreen evidence that anyone ever checks to see if the time travel has any effect in the present of 1992, either the Futurians or our heroes. I can also understand needing to stop in 1992 to get Kenichiro and Miki to go back to 1994 to make sure they had the right Godzilla from the 1984 attack. If they had the wrong one then King Ghidorah would not mutate properly.

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:3. The Futurians jump to 1992 and command King Ghidorah to attack Japan. They are convinced that Godzilla has been erased, and this leads many fans to believe that they are right. However, everyone still remembers the second Godzilla existing, which is the first sign that he's still around. Many viewers also believe that history has been altered because Ghidorah is now a part of history when he wasn't before. However, the movie never gives any indication that Ghidorah attacks before 1992. It makes sense after all, since he's controlled by the Futurians, and from 1944 to 1992, they weren't there to order him around. In other words, Ghidorah was always a part of history, but he was hanging out on Lagos Island until 1992, so nobody knew about him until then.

It make since the King Ghidorah is sitting idle, possibly in a cocoon until he receives an activation signal from the Futurians. However the Futurians never bother to check to see if Godzilla really was erased from the timeline. If their goal was just to create King Ghidorah and not actually stop Godzilla from being created it would be fine. But the onscreen evidence is they believe the 2nd Godzilla is no more.

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:4. It turns out that not only did the Futurians fail to prevent Godzilla from being created, they actually caused his creation. In the late 70s a Russian nuclear sub explodes in the Bering Sea, exposing the dinosaur there to even more radiation than the hydrogen bomb test would have, causing it to mutate into a Godzilla larger than the one that attacked in 1954. This new, larger Godzilla slowly makes his way to Japan, finally making landfall in 1984. Again, remember that this is all exactly how history went in the first place.

Again they just assumed their plan worked without taking a single step to try and verify Godzilla was gone. However it turns out they just needed to place the Dorats on an island near any of the H Bomb tests and they would have been fine, since the 2nd Godzilla wasn’t created on Lagos island but in fact by a Soviet sub accident.

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:5. The people of 1992, mistakenly thinking that the dinosaur was never mutated into the second Godzilla, dispatch a nuclear sub to the Bering Sea to mutate him now. However, since Godzilla was never erased, he attacks the sub as soon as it embarks, growing from 80 meters to 100 meters. Most viewers don't catch this and believe that a new history has been created where the dinosaur really never was mutated until 1992, which would mean The Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs. Biollante never happened. Catching the detail that the sub finds a fully mutated Godzilla and mutates him further rather than reaching the Bering Sea and finding a normal dinosaur resolves this apparent erasure of the earlier films, and explains how people are able to reference them in the later films.

How could the people of 1992 not know that Godzilla still attacked Tokyo in 1984 and Osaka in 1989 and fought Biollante? Our heroes are smart enough to research the Bering Sea to figure out the Soviet Sub disaster caused the Lagos island Godzillasaurus to mutate into a Godzilla. But we didn’t see them check to see if Godzilla attacked Japan in 1954, and 1984. Also Godzilla is closely monitored and disappears. He had been pretty much in the same spot recovering from the ANEB, Godzilla most have swum at mach speed to get to the Bering Sea in time to meet the sub.

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:6. Now for some further timeline cleanup: Godzilla beats Ghidorah in 1992. In 2204, Ghidorah's remains are located and upgraded into Mecha-King Ghidorah, who is then sent back to 1992. Godzilla beats Mecha-King Ghidorah too. In 1994, Mecha-King Ghidorah's remains are used to construct Mecha Godzilla, but the remains of non-Mecha-Ghidorah are left alone, which is why they're still there in 2204 but the other set of remains isn't. Godzilla dies in 1996, as seen in Godzilla vs. Destoroyah, seemingly contradicting a moment whenThe Futurians reference Godzilla attacking Japan at dates far later than that. However, remember that Godzilla Jr. is still alive at the end of GvD, and has fully grown into an adult by that point. Since it's unclear if the Futurians even understand that the 1954 Godzilla and the 1984 Godzilla are different creatures, what are the chances they know the difference between the 1984 Godzilla and Godzilla Jr.?

As far as the future attacks beyond 1992 is concerned they could of just lied. And 1992 was as good of time as any to command King Ghidroah to attack Japan and devastate their future hopes of becoming the dominate economy in the 23rd century.

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:So there you go. It's all one timeline without any contradictions now. It took a lot of work to decipher, but I honestly believe that what I've outlined above is the true intent of the writers- NOT the idea that the Futurians managed to actually alter history in any way like so many believe.

As a "stable time loop" model the film still has many contradictions. I still like this movie a lot, but the time travel elements are very sloppy done.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby kamilleblu » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:04 pm

Haven't seen the film in some time, though I'll try to offer some solutions to problems you have.

szmigiel wrote:I guess the Fururians only read the history of Godzilla until 1990, not bothering to read the history of how Godzilla fought King Ghidorah in 1992. If this was the "stable time loop" model then they would have read about it in the history books.

This is probably a stretch, but maybe the Futurians didn't know exactly what the Dorats were going to mutate into. When they discovered it was a King Ghidroah, they might have thought things were going to turn out differently this time. And since there are centuries between the events of King Ghidorah and the Futurians choosing to return to the past, the records from the 20th century might have either been lost or in an incomplete state. Seeing that they were working off a faulty theory to begin with, I wouldn't be surprised if all of this were the case.

szmigiel wrote:How could the people of 1992 not know that Godzilla still attacked Tokyo in 1984 and Osaka in 1989 and fought Biollante? Our heroes are smart enough to research the Bering Sea to figure out the Soviet Sub disaster caused the Lagos island Godzillasaurus to mutate into a Godzilla. But we didn’t see them check to see if Godzilla attacked Japan in 1954, and 1984. Also Godzilla is closely monitored and disappears. He had been pretty much in the same spot recovering from the ANEB, Godzilla most have swum at mach speed to get to the Bering Sea in time to meet the sub.

If Godzilla had only attacked Japan in 1954, I assume the course of history would have been changed significantly. Imagine how differently the national power structure and the innumerable amounts of personal lives would look without the two attacks by the second Godzilla. The characters wouldn't have been asking where Godzilla was at all had he been successfully erased. Heck, that specific group of characters probably wouldn't have been in the same room together. That should have been the first sign something was wrong.

szmigiel wrote:Also Godzilla is closely monitored and disappears. He had been pretty much in the same spot recovering from the ANEB, Godzilla most have swum at mach speed to get to the Bering Sea in time to meet the sub.

Godzilla vs. Biollante had established that if Godzilla made any unpredictable movements we could easily lose track of him. Maybe the Japanese weren't expecting him to move? Since he did move, even if they did check, the Futurians might have assumed he was gone when they didn't find him and thought nothing more of it. Besides, they had a country to destroy. As for the Japanese, they might have been under the impression they removed the wrong animal. Something was definitely moved and a second Godzilla definitely still attacked in the 1980s. This second Godzilla wasn't where he was supposed to be so they set off to create another, not knowing they were the same creature.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Mr. Xeno » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:22 pm

szmigiel wrote:As a "stable time loop" model the film still has many contradictions. I still like this movie a lot, but the time travel elements are very sloppy done.

If you can point out a time-travel film that doesn't have major plot holes, I'll eat my nonexistent hat.

Still, GvKG does some very clever things with it's time travel, and the movie itself is still a ton of fun so that the plot holes don't really matter.
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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby szmigiel » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:29 am

Mr. Xeno wrote:
szmigiel wrote:As a "stable time loop" model the film still has many contradictions. I still like this movie a lot, but the time travel elements are very sloppy done.

If you can point out a time-travel film that doesn't have major plot holes, I'll eat my nonexistent hat.

Still, GvKG does some very clever things with it's time travel, and the movie itself is still a ton of fun so that the plot holes don't really matter.

The first (and only the first) Terminator movie is a great example of a stable time loop model. There is also The Final Countdown where the USS Nimitz travels back to just before Pearl Harbor attack and everything they do is all part of history, 12 Monkeys and the french film it was based on La Jetee both have great stable time loop plots. From television there is also Gargoyles and Babylon 5 both featured great uses of the stable time loop, where when you time travel you are part of history not changing it.

The biggest issue with the time travel in GVKG is that the characters never investigate what changes are made on screen, so the audience isn't sure what differences may have, or may have not happened, as a result of their time travel. One of the character is a researcher, and a good one, you would think this would be one of the first things he would do when he got back. Things get worse with GVSG and GVD that start refreshing old events.

So again I like the movie but the time travel is handled very sloppy anyway you look at it.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby DrBreakfastMachine » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:28 am

szmigiel wrote:As a "stable time loop" model the film still has many contradictions. I still like this movie a lot, but the time travel elements are very sloppy done.


Well, all of what you pointed out just boils down to the characters being idiots, not any actual timeline contradictions if you ask me. The way I see it, when everyone gets back to 1992, they assume that things operate in the Back to the Future way where if you erase something from history it would just fade away into thin air but people would still remember it (e.g., change the past, a newspaper you're holding gets a new headline, but you still remember the old one). The fact that it takes them so goddamned long to realize that nothing got changed is an issue with the script, but I maintain that the time travel itself is still airtight. Also I think the Futurians are supposed to be uneducated idiots on purpose as commentary on westerners.

Mr. Xeno wrote:If you can point out a time-travel film that doesn't have major plot holes, I'll eat my nonexistent hat.


Timecrimes. Easily the most perfect time travel movie ever made from a continuity perspective. Everything you see in the first half of the film ends up being caused by something in the second half, down to the tiniest details, and it all lines up perfectly.

I'd also argue that X-men: Days of Future Past doesn't have any temporal slip-ups either, though it did keep things a lot simpler than Timecrimes. Wolverine goes back in time, he alters history, he comes back to a different present. No problems.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby szmigiel » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:11 am

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:Well, all of what you pointed out just boils down to the characters being idiots, not any actual timeline contradictions if you ask me. The way I see it, when everyone gets back to 1992, they assume that things operate in the Back to the Future way where if you erase something from history it would just fade away into thin air but people would still remember it (e.g., change the past, a newspaper you're holding gets a new headline, but you still remember the old one). The fact that it takes them so goddamned long to realize that nothing got changed is an issue with the script, but I maintain that the time travel itself is still airtight. Also I think the Futurians are supposed to be uneducated idiots on purpose as commentary on westerners.

It’s like traveling back in time to kill Hitler, then coming back to modern day and never checking a history book to see if it had any effect.

The Futurains really seem to half ass their plans, even if the information from the 23rd century was spotty, they had a time machine they could have stopped anywhere else in time to gather information on Godzilla.

If you follow the fixed timeline theory you have the fact that Godzilla, who hadn’t moved since the end of Biollante, up and decided to swim over a thousand miles up to where he was transported in 1944 just to meet the Japanese sub. Then travel back down to Hakkaido to take on King Ghidorah.

If the film follows time travel causes a new alternate timeline, but one where Godzilla is preordained to happen and thus was mutated by the Soviet sub disaster and then again by the new sub in 1992. You have the issue that in 1992 they notice that Godzilla is missing, when he wouldn’t have fought Biollante and been recovering from the ANEB in the first place.

The only way it works is if time travel caused a new timeline with King Ghidorah and Godzilla asleep in the Bering Sea. When the time travels return to 1992 the new time line and old time line are merging together, causing paradoxes. This would also mean that when the Futurians got back to the 23rd century the same thing would happen.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby DrBreakfastMachine » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:20 am

Did you even read my first post? In the movie Godzilla intercepts the sub and destroys it immediately after it launches, then comes ashore in Japan right afterwards. He didn't go back to the Bering Sea. He was right off the coast of Japan the entire time, asleep until the nuclear energy of the sub got his attention. The only reason the JSDF knew where he was is because he had being laying in the same spot perfectly still for three years. We all know that as soon as Godzilla starts to move, nobody ever has a clue where he is until he comes ashore again.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby kamilleblu » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:45 am

We aren't told whether anyone checked to see if the timeline had changed. Later films tell us it didn't, at least not significantly.

Didn't the Futurians steal the time machine to begin with? The entire operation was a small rogue faction acting on its own with limited resources. Maybe there was a restriction on the number of times they could use the machine. Meaning they weren't able to casually jump around through history to make sure all went according to plan. They chose to return to 1992 in order to get Kenichiro and Miki, who were needed to ensure the right animal was located and disposed of. Even if Godzilla hadn't been erased, he was nowhere to be found/posed no threat and they had the weapon they needed. Nothing else mattered. All that remained on the agenda was to wipe Japan out and return to an altered future.

Is Godzilla's behavior that unusual? Remember, he was in a weakened condition and was most likely searching for energy. He probably didn't want a confrontation with the military. Who knows what direction he was heading before the submarine was launched? How far did it even get? Honestly, figuring it would be the easiest target, he might have been following it shortly after launch. After refueling his energy supply, he senses King Ghidorah's presence and returns to Japan. Godzilla seems territorial and King Ghidorah was also a product of nuclear weapons.

Probably the biggest potential issue with the time traveling of GvKG is Emi says Godzilla never recovered in the original timeline. Meaning:
1) Something is being overlooked and the proposed timeline works just fine.
2) Emi has incorrect information or is intentionally lying.
3) The ANEB was reproduced and used against the third Godzilla. Only problem I see with this is Junior had no animosity towards humans. So unless he was provoked, there is little reason for him fighting them. Maybe someone felt threatened by his presence and attempted to take him out. Despite their best efforts, he could only be weakened. Not captured or killed, causing Emi to mistake the two monsters. Also, another Godzilla could have appeared.
4) The Futurians actually changed the timeline. However, the Godzilla attacks still had to pan out in a fairly similar fashion as depicted in the previous two films. They're mentioned in Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla. If the timeline was altered, those changes were restricted mainly to 1992 and onwards. Basically, Emi and M-11 returned to a different future. We aren't told much besides Japan became the most powerful country in the world, which means the events of Mothra, MechaGodzilla, Space Godzilla and Destoroyah could have played out differently (or not at all) in the original timeline. If this is the case, it still contradicts nothing shown or mentioned in the Heisei Era.
5) There's a problem with the timeline.

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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby eabaker » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:49 am

kamilleblu wrote:We aren't told whether anyone checked to see if the timeline had changed. Later films tell us it didn't, at least not significantly.


Isn't there a line in the Japanese version along the lines of, "Godzilla has disappeared from history"? Of course, that could be a result of sloppy translation, and, either way, it's really hard to determine what it would mean for a character who still has knowledge of something to say that it has ceased to... have been.

In the end, part of the point of the movie is that Godzilla (and by extension the things he represents) is a historical inevitability. I think that theme is a little stronger if we don't read it as a stable time loop, but either way, the basic idea is there.
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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby szmigiel » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:53 am

DrBreakfastMachine wrote:Did you even read my first post? In the movie Godzilla intercepts the sub and destroys it immediately after it launches, then comes ashore in Japan right afterwards. He didn't go back to the Bering Sea. He was right off the coast of Japan the entire time, asleep until the nuclear energy of the sub got his attention. The only reason the JSDF knew where he was is because he had being laying in the same spot perfectly still for three years. We all know that as soon as Godzilla starts to move, nobody ever has a clue where he is until he comes ashore again.

Except you are forgetting they have infrared images of Godzilla in the Bering Sea in the film, he wasn't off the coast of Japan.
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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby edgaguirus » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:33 pm

The time travel shown here does have a hiccup, but I doubt the screen writers were concerned with a stable time loop. What we got worked for the plot at hand, so I ignore any flaws in the time travel theory.
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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:42 am

A big problem with all this is that if Godzilla vs Biollante doesn't get erased then a lot of later films make zero sense. Why? Because of the ANEB. The ANEB manages to pretty much kill Godzilla or at least render him completely unable to attack Japan again. If the Futurians didn't interfere there's a good chance Godzilla would have never come back.

The events of 1984 and 1989 needed to be erased, otherwise they already have two easy ways of controlling and killing Godzilla. Why bother creating Mechagodzilla and Mougera when it would probably be way more cost effective to just make the ANEB?

By erasing the events of G84 And 1989 suddenly the

Now you may say,"how come the writer dude and the cast remembers Godzilla? That doesn't make sense!" Actually, it sort of kind of still does. They exist outside of the time loop. They go back in time with the knowledge of the events of 1989+1984 and return to the timeline where Ghidorah exists. This means they know about Godzilla but everyone else doesn't. You might say,"

"Ghidorah is more powerful than Godzilla!"
And if there are any references to Godzilla still keep this in mind: no matter what the 1954 Godzilla still happened. Godzilla 1954 burned tokyo down and was probably one of the most destructive monster in the series. Since Biollante doesn't exist, not does the second Godzilla the only comparison to make to Ghidorah is 1954. This means when a character states,"He's more powerful than godzilla" or references him in any way than they are either out of the time loop or referencing 1954. Again given that no other kaiju would have existed in this time and 1954 is such a legendary event the comparison is appropriate.

Super X
The next problem would be the Super X. Super X1+2 exist within 1984 and 1989 and Super X3 exists within 1995. So obviously that's a problem. Why would they exist if Godzilla up until 1991 didn't exist? Well, here's the thing. The original Super X was never intended to fight Godzilla. It was created as a tool to defend the Japanese capital and combat nuclear fallout should the Cold War erupt into a real nuclear war. They can make a second model regardless if Godzilla ever existed and we never see what it looked like in the post altered timeline. Again the third model of the super x isn't actually made to combat Godzilla. It has freezer missles, something that wouldn't really be used except on a burning Godzilla. It is also in movie designed to combat nuclear reactors that have begun to crash. So the super x can and will exist regardless of 1984 and 1989's Godzilla being erased.

The Real Problem: Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla
If it weren't for this movie I could easily explain all the reasons why the timeline makes sense. This doesn't.

Biollante is referenced and Moguera is made from Mechagodzilla meaning MKG had to exist. On top of that Miki Segusa is a character and Gondo from GVB exists and has a sister and friend. This movie skreeonks everything up simply by having a timeline where both Spacegodzilla and Mougera exist!

Da Plan

Also: just because the Futurians failed in that Ghidorah didn't kill Godzilla doesn't mean they actually failed. Sure we know three Futurians but we don't actually know their leader or their cause. They came to make Ghidorah to destroy Japan in Godzilla's absence but Godzilla is just as capable, if not more of destroying Japan as Ghidorah. In fact by coming back they resurrected Godzilla and made him stronger.

So the three ones came back might have actually just been goons and the leader knows they would fail.

However, the biggest moment in the series and the real thing that has the heaviest impact is the creation of MKG. MKG changes the timeline drastically. It allows for japan to created super mechs like Mechagodzilla and Mougera(the latter being a machine capable of space flight!). Inadvertently by bringing back MKG this might have been the event that led Japan to being a superpower in the timeline where the Futurians come back to destroy japan.
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Re: The time-travel of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby kamilleblu » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:25 pm

Actually, I was incorrect about Godzilla not recovering from the ANEB. Emi actually states that Godzilla defends Japan, though she didn't say from what. Might that might be from Space Godzilla and Destoroyah? So either Godzilla does eventually recover or an adult Junior becomes Japan's savior. Futurian technology led to the creation of MechaGodzilla, Moguera, and the Super X III. This sudden advancement is probably what allowed for Japan's future superiority.

It seems unreasonable that 1992 was the first appearance of the second Godzilla. Based on the actions of the characters and the fact absolutely nothing was different, I'd argue that people just assumed he was gone because he wasn't where they expected him to be. Remember, tracking him underwater is difficult. If the Heisei Godzilla were attacking for the first time in 1992, maser tanks wouldn't be around since the only other monster in this timeline was the original Godzilla in 1954. Plus, all the characters remember the second Godzilla.

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah never specifically mentions Godzilla 1985 and Godzilla vs. Biollante, so the time traveling would be pretty seamless if it weren't for Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla. Some form of the previous two films happened. The only two events required by Space Godzilla's reference is the existence of Biollante and Gondo's death at the hands of Godzilla. Assuming only Dr. Shiragami knew how to produce ANEB, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. It's the Heisei Era's version of the Oxygen Destroyer.

By the way, the film confirms that Japan would have been wiped out without Mecha King Ghidorah's intervention. So the Futurians are responsible for Japan's future prosperity.

Also, Shindo says that the submarine was launched from a Southeast Asian country. Where Godzilla intercepted it is unknown.


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