Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

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Terasawa
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Terasawa » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:41 am

Spydrmanjr wrote:Have we already discussed why King Ghidorah does not show up in the past and Godzilla is still apart of everyone's memories?


Yes, here.

As mentioned by eabaker in that thread, the time travel theory Zarm comes up with (in the linked post) is essentially the same interpretation that had been written about in G-Fan #9 (May 1994) by Tom Miller:

It is important to remember that time travel doesn't exist; it is probably impossible even in theory due to the severe violations of cause and effect inherent in the concept. Despite (or because of) this, time travel has always been extremely popular in science fiction and fantasy. As a result of the innumerable manifestations of time travel in film and print, preconceived notions of it have developed. This is a mistake. There are no "laws" of time travel other than those created, explicitly or implicitly, by the author of the given story. Therefore, the approach in Godzilla vs King Ghidora cannot be: "How does this agree with what is known about time travel?" (since nothing is known about time travel). Rather, the question is: "What can be deduced about time travel from what the movie shows?" In other words, the facts mustn't conform to the theory, rather the theory must conform to the facts. Approached in this manner, it is easier to resolve the questions raised by Godzilla vs King Ghidora.

The primary lesson is that the past cannot be altered but the future can be changed by time travel to the past. What does this mean? When the time travellers removed the Godzillasaurus from Lagos Island in 1944, their own past was not altered. The result of their effort did not become manifest until their own time, the time they left Japan, 1992. This is why memories of Godzilla persisted and nothing that had happened prior to their time voyage was altered upon their return.

This is understandable by looking at cause and effect. What's past is past. The effect, Godzilla's removal to the Bering Sea, cannot occur until after the cause, the Futurians' departure in 1992. The same applies to King Ghidora. One might expect that King Ghidora had been ravaging Japan ever since he had been created by the A-bomb test near Lagos Island, but he hadn't. Time travel doesn't work that way in the movie. King Ghidora appears in 1992, when the time travellers return. Again, effect must follow cause. The results of changes to the past occur in the future.


He also explains that the time travel model in the film means there's no ripple/butterfly effect, where one changed event cascades into many changes over time.

This results in an understanding that's much less tidy than Keith Aiken's stable time loop theory, but it's the correct understanding based on what the movie shows and tells us.
Last edited by Terasawa on Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spydrmanjr
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Spydrmanjr » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:05 am

Thanks for linking me to that. I could have sworn it was discussed and read it here but I forgot.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby szmigiel » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:08 am

I think the film fleshes out why the UFO stops in the 90's and not just go to 1944 to start with pretty well. The Futurians want to control Japan at the dawn of becoming the economic world power. We also have no idea how long it takes the Dorats to become King Ghidorah.

My biggest problem with the time travel to WWII isn't the acting/bad engrish it is the fact that Emi releases the Dorats. It should have been M11 under orders and she questions where they went as they are about to travel back. Would go a long way to making it like the others were manipulating her all along, and she knew nothing of the King Ghidorah destruction part of their plans.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Terasawa » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:10 am

szmigiel wrote:My biggest problem with the time travel to WWII isn't the acting/bad engrish it is the fact that Emi releases the Dorats. It should have been M11 under orders and she questions where they went as they are about to travel back. Would go a long way to making it like the others were manipulating her all along, and she knew nothing of the King Ghidorah destruction part of their plans.


I agree. As it plays out it makes Emmy seem duplicitous (she isn’t) or foolish.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby UltramanGoji » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:15 am

I've always read it as (or maybe I'm remembering a bit of dialogue or something, it's been a while) Emi knew what King Ghidorah would do but was shocked when Wilson and Grenchiko were going to continue to let it destroy Japan even after they had already made their point.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby eabaker » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:04 pm

szmigiel wrote:I think the film fleshes out why the UFO stops in the 90's and not just go to 1944 to start with pretty well. The Futurians want to control Japan at the dawn of becoming the economic world power. We also have no idea how long it takes the Dorats to become King Ghidorah.


Yup. And considering the "minimal ripple effect" aspect of time travel here, a trip directly from the twenty-third century to 1945 would leave the events of 1992 unatltered. They'd just return to their own time and find King Ghidorah waiting for them, but that wouldn't accomplish their goals at all.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Terasawa » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:10 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:I've always read it as (or maybe I'm remembering a bit of dialogue or something, it's been a while) Emi knew what King Ghidorah would do but was shocked when Wilson and Grenchiko were going to continue to let it destroy Japan even after they had already made their point.


You're correct. I'm not sure how Sony translated it in 2014 but Emmy says

キングギドラを我々が操作するなんて聞いてなかったわ

which is basically "I wasn't told that we could (would?) control King Ghidorah!" Wilson says they (the Futurians) will guide Japan's reconstruction after King Ghidorah destroys it; Emmy apparently didn't know this either because it pisses her off.

私たちのやろうとしたのはあくまで警告よ20世紀の日本にこれじゃ脅迫じゃないのまるで
やり過ぎだわ
(Basically, "We were going to warn 20th century Japan; this is more than just a warning. It's going way too far!"
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby HedorahIsBestGirl » Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:07 pm

So Emmy didn't know that King Ghidorah was going to be used to destroy Japan? I feel like that didn't translate well at all in the English dub. Not sure if they butchered the dialogue or if I'm just misremembering but it was always my impression that Emmy was fully aware of the Futurians' plans but got cold feet once Ghidorah actually started wrecking havoc. If she really didn't know then she's gullible as hell, but at least she's a more sympathetic character.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby UltramanGoji » Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:23 pm

HedorahIsBestGirl wrote:So Emmy didn't know that King Ghidorah was going to be used to destroy Japan?


From what I gathered, two options (one might be based on the English dub, again it's been a while):

- Emmy knew that Ghidorah would be at least used to ravage Fukuoka a little bit to humble 1992 Japan but when Wilson wanted it to move onward to other cities, she became aghast that they wanted to destroy all of Japan.
- Emmy knew that they would create King Ghidorah and that it would attack Japan but had no idea that Wilson and Grenchiko were controlling it deliberately.

At least, that's my reading of it from my memory. Could be incorrect.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby kamilleblu » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:32 pm

The budget for Godzilla vs King Ghidorah was roughly $12 million according to Toho Kingdom's main site. The remaining Heisei Godzilla films had similar budgets. That's a significant leap from the purported $5 million budget of Godzilla vs Biollante. Does anyone have an explanation for this or what these numbers would be adjusted for inflation?

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby MekaGojira3k » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:16 am

I don't understand how the budget went up that much and the effects look so much worse imo.


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