Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Gojirawars 03 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:32 am

God, this feels like it'll be harder to say than coming out as gay to strict, southern, Christian parents...
Well, here goes...


This is my favorite incarnation of Ghidorah.

Don't @ me, Showa super-fans
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby eabaker » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:51 am

Gojirawars 03 wrote:God, this feels like it'll be harder to say than coming out as gay to strict, southern, Christian parents...
Well, here goes...


This is my favorite incarnation of Ghidorah.

Don't @ me, Showa super-fans


I honestly love both of those incarnations of Ghidorah. And, while I might give an edge to the Showa version if only for the more unique roar and the distinctive manes, I (a pretty hardcore Shopwa fanboy in most respects) also have to admit to considering GvsKG as a movie to be better than any of the character's Showa-era appearances.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby GigaBowserG » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Gojirawars 03 wrote:This is my favorite incarnation of Ghidorah.

Don't @ me, Showa super-fans


I flip-flop between this one and Grand KG as my favorite version. While the modified Rodan roars are strange, they were never a major negative. To be honest, I think I'd rather have the squeaky Rodan roars versus recycling Showa KG's noises. Makes the incarnations even more distinct given their totally different origins.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby kamilleblu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:29 pm

eabaker wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:I remember people mentioning that Emmy said Godzilla never recovered from the ANEB. Where in the movie does she say this? And does it occur in the dub or sub?


Not sure about the dub (haven't watched it in twenty years or more), but in every subbed version I've ever seen, she says this when she shows up at Teresawa's place to confess everything to him after her argument with the other Futurians.


Unless these subtitles are incorrect, Emi's only references to Godzilla in that scene are that he doesn't destroy Japan and if some other monster existed in the 20th century then Japan could be destroyed (indirect proof that the timeline was changed?).

eabaker wrote: I (a pretty hardcore Shopwa fanboy in most respects) also have to admit to considering GvsKG as a movie to be better than any of the character's Showa-era appearances.

You think Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is a better film than Ghidorah and Monster Zero?

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby eabaker » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:36 pm

kamilleblu wrote:
eabaker wrote: I (a pretty hardcore Shopwa fanboy in most respects) also have to admit to considering GvsKG as a movie to be better than any of the character's Showa-era appearances.

You think Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is a better film than Ghidorah and Monster Zero?


Yeah. I like Ghidorah, but I've never considered it one of the top of its era. I love Monster Zero, but if I really, gun to my head, had to choose, I'd say that GvsKG's use of Godzilla as a symbol for the post-war economic boom is a strong enough concept, and centered so effectively around the character of Shindo, that it elevates the movie to an incrementally higher tier.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby kamilleblu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:41 pm

eabaker wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:
eabaker wrote: I (a pretty hardcore Shopwa fanboy in most respects) also have to admit to considering GvsKG as a movie to be better than any of the character's Showa-era appearances.

You think Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is a better film than Ghidorah and Monster Zero?


Yeah. I like Ghidorah, but I've never considered it one of the top of its era. I love Monster Zero, but if I really, gun to my head, had to choose, I'd say that GvsKG's use of Godzilla as a symbol for the post-war economic boom is a strong enough concept, and centered so effectively around the character of Shindo, that it elevates the movie to an incrementally higher tier.

Godzilla vs King Ghidorah's message is too muddled and poorly communicated for me. But I do agree it gives the film a unique flavor. And outside of some improvements in special effects the latter film has, I think Monster Zero is the better film in virtually every way.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby eabaker » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:46 pm

kamilleblu wrote:
eabaker wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:You think Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is a better film than Ghidorah and Monster Zero?


Yeah. I like Ghidorah, but I've never considered it one of the top of its era. I love Monster Zero, but if I really, gun to my head, had to choose, I'd say that GvsKG's use of Godzilla as a symbol for the post-war economic boom is a strong enough concept, and centered so effectively around the character of Shindo, that it elevates the movie to an incrementally higher tier.

Godzilla vs King Ghidorah's message is too muddled and poorly communicated for me. But I do agree it gives the film a unique flavor. And outside of some improvements in special effects the latter film has, I think Monster Zero is the better film in virtually every way.


I'm actually pretty okay with a muddled message, because it still raises ideas to muse on and talk about afterward.

I also often judge a movie more on its highest highs than on its overall average. I would call Monster Zero a more consistent movie, but I don't think it has any individual moments that, for me, match the impact of Godzilla's first arrival on land in GvsKG, or the death of Shindo.

What really matters, in the end, is that Yoshio Tsuchiya is awesome in both movies.

I frickin' love Yoshio Tsuchiya.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:03 pm

Why are Showa fans a bogeyman to certain people on this forum?
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby kamilleblu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:04 pm

eabaker wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:
eabaker wrote:
Yeah. I like Ghidorah, but I've never considered it one of the top of its era. I love Monster Zero, but if I really, gun to my head, had to choose, I'd say that GvsKG's use of Godzilla as a symbol for the post-war economic boom is a strong enough concept, and centered so effectively around the character of Shindo, that it elevates the movie to an incrementally higher tier.

Godzilla vs King Ghidorah's message is too muddled and poorly communicated for me. But I do agree it gives the film a unique flavor. And outside of some improvements in special effects the latter film has, I think Monster Zero is the better film in virtually every way.


I'm actually pretty okay with a muddled message, because it still raises ideas to muse on and talk about afterward.

I also often judge a movie more on its highest highs than on its overall average. I would call Monster Zero a more consistent movie, but I don't think it has any individual moments that, for me, match the impact of Godzilla's first arrival on land in GvsKG, or the death of Shindo.

What really matters, in the end, is that Yoshio Tsuchiya is awesome in both movies.

I frickin' love Yoshio Tsuchiya.

Tsuchiya is the man.

Yeah, we look at films differently. I need more than a few moments to hold together an entire film and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah has too many rough spots for me. Besides Shindo, no one is well-written or acted and at least a solid hour of screen time is carried solely by its cast/story.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby eabaker » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:04 pm

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Why are Showa fans a bogeyman to certain people on this forum?


Because we're malicious. We do terrible things to Heisei fans while they sleep.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby GigaBowserG » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:21 pm

kamilleblu wrote:Yeah, we look at films differently. I need more than a few moments to hold together an entire film and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah has too many rough spots for me. Besides Shindo, no one is well-written or acted and at least a solid hour of screen time is carried solely by its cast/story.


It's tough to top Tsuchiya, but I always felt Anna Nakagawa as Emmy did pretty great.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Terasawa » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:31 pm

Omori's Godzilla is possibly my favorite iteration of the character because he seemed to understand that Godzilla is a truly unstoppable force. He creates a lot of interesting situations that would seem impossible to overcome if it weren't Godzilla. Many of us who saw Godzilla fall into Mt. Mihara thought that was a certain death for the character, but Omori has him just chilling out down there. He one-ups it by having Godzilla travel through molten rock from near Indonesia to Mt. Fuji in Godzilla vs. Mothra.

Omori also introduced one of the most credible anti-Godzilla devices in the entire series, the ANEB, yet the Big G survives what's supposedly lethal dose. And to be fair, Godzilla only conquers it through the help of Shindo's nuclear sub, but even then Godzilla's just wading around in the Pacific for several years prior to that "rebirth."

In vs. King Ghidorah he has Godzilla erased from history (OK not really, but that's how it's treated by some of the characters) only for Godzilla to come back stronger than ever. He also successfully killed Godzilla in vs. Destoroyah but had Godzilla's lineage continue.

Some of it is sloppy writing, almost like old serials where the characters are forced into some insurmountable defeat in the cliffhanger before the writers come up with a cheat to save them in the next part. But I like it. Not many other writers have put Godzilla through so many challenges just to have him come out stronger than ever each time.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby LegendZilla » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:04 pm

Terasawa wrote:Omori's Godzilla is possibly my favorite iteration of the character because he seemed to understand that Godzilla is a truly unstoppable force. He creates a lot of interesting situations that would seem impossible to overcome if it weren't Godzilla. Many of us who saw Godzilla fall into Mt. Mihara thought that was a certain death for the character, but Omori has him just chilling out down there. He one-ups it by having Godzilla travel through molten rock from near Indonesia to Mt. Fuji in Godzilla vs. Mothra.

Omori also introduced one of the most credible anti-Godzilla devices in the entire series, the ANEB, yet the Big G survives what's supposedly lethal dose. And to be fair, Godzilla only conquers it through the help of Shindo's nuclear sub, but even then Godzilla's just wading around in the Pacific for several years prior to that "rebirth."

In vs. King Ghidorah he has Godzilla erased from history (OK not really, but that's how it's treated by some of the characters) only for Godzilla to come back stronger than ever. He also successfully killed Godzilla in vs. Destoroyah but had Godzilla's lineage continue.

Some of it is sloppy writing, almost like old serials where the characters are forced into some insurmountable defeat in the cliffhanger before the writers come up with a cheat to save them in the next part. But I like it. Not many other writers have put Godzilla through so many challenges just to have him come out stronger than ever each time.


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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Living Corpse » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:46 pm

Gojirawars 03 wrote:God, this feels like it'll be harder to say than coming out as gay to strict, southern, Christian parents...
Well, here goes...


This is my favorite incarnation of Ghidorah.

Don't @ me, Showa super-fans


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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Dr. Professor » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:19 pm

I like to do the ol' shaving cream to the face prank on them.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:06 pm

Dr. Professor wrote:I like to do the ol' shaving cream to the face prank on them.

I like to sqeeze the jelly from their eyes. It's quite good on toast.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Godzillian » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:09 pm

Despite all the problems this film has it's one of my favorite Godzilla films. I especially love the dynamic between Godzilla and Shindo.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Wed May 22, 2019 10:15 pm

Similar to Return of Godzilla, my opinion of this film has greatly improved.I want to say a few things regarding M11, before getting into the meat of things.

The way people use the films obvious inspiration from Terminator as a way to bash and disregard the film is completely ridiculous. Not only is the film different from the Terminator franchise plot-wise, M11 being a terminator knock-off is only a very small portion of the film (under two minutes). Beyond that, he`s just a generic and completely harmless android. What I find really cool though, is how he is integrated into the story. It`s a small detail, but M11 basically becomes MKG. In the scene at the end with MKG, M11 frequently talks to Emmy, and even seems to have some degree of control of the mechanical control of MKG. I could be wrong, but it appears as though Emmy controls the movement and organic components of MKG, while M11 controls the mechanical. It`S also really subtle, but M11 mentions that he is a cyborg, just like what King Ghidorah becomes. Both M11 and King Ghidorah begin the film as pawns for the evil doers, before breaking free and fighting against other evils. I think this relationship to MKG makes M11 break the mold from the standard killer android archetypes.

Next, this film garnishes a lot of bad publicity and controversy with nationalism and WW2. While I don`t deny that the film plays into some nationalistic themes, which most films do btw, my interpretation of the WW2 scene is exaggerated. People point to the scene of the Godzillasaurus attacking the troops, and while yeah Shindo is happy, and yes Godzillasaurus`s near death is tragically shot, the scene is legitimately horrifying. The music that plays during this scene is absolutely dreadful, implying tonally that the audience shouldn`t emphasize or really side with anyone during that scene. Additionally, for technically being a war movie, the soldiers, both sides, are portrayed pretty tamefully. The whole Major Spielberg scene, while really goofy and a clear nod, also is important at alleviating some of the tension.The only real imperialist is Shindo, who I`ll address in a moment. I find it interesting that 95% of Godzilla films involve Godzilla plowing through Japanese armies, and violently murdering both soldiers and civilians, and no one bats an eye, but the instant it happens to some other group, its a big source of controversy.

The other big source of nationalism controversy, involves Japan presumably taking over the world in the future, buying up portions of South America and Africa. While of course this is hugely nationalistic, a few lines of dialogue indicate that this isn`t a favorable outcome for Japan either. The reason being, is that in the future, Shindo`s company owns and runs japan. There`s a line about the company taking over. The fact that Shindo has a private nuclear submarine, is pointed out as a negative, and the fact that Shindo sort of worships Godzilla ties him is unsettling and shows an unhinged character. There`s a reason why Shindo`s lackey, in the beginning, is screaming in a museum like a raving lunatic. You aren`t intended to identify with him. Really, the film is more about the dangers of monopolies and economic wars.

And while Wilson and Co. are clearly horrible people, it seems like there is some truth or reason to believe that the Futurians`s efforts were legitimate. Emmy does initially agree to the cause, and the old man part of the Earth Union or whatever doesn`t seem to have anything against Japan. I would argue that a lot is unseen, and its more likely that Shindo`s corp in the future becomes a tyrannical group.


I like the fact that Terasawa, has a red coat and car. It`s the most minor detail, but the shot of him and the others entering the Futurian Ship is great. Everyone else is in some sort of suit or military type outfit, and meanwhile he sticks out like a sore thumb with his Red Windbreaker. And he gets a lot more minor details, just by having details about his publishing history, and also his minor romance with the publishing agent. I`d argue that Emmy is more of the protagonist of the film, and that Terasawa is more of an active observer but he is pretty cool.

King Ghidorah also suffers from bullshit. People always prefer the Showa Ghidorah, and everyone hates this one, but why? The Heisei Ghidorah has a great design with subtle changes. While the Dorats are a little wonky, there`s nothing that makes this Ghidorah weaker then the Showa incarnation. The issue is that this Ghidorah went up against one of the most OP Godzilla`s in the franchise. The destruction scenes with Ghidorah are really well done. Likewise MKG is also really cool. The real issue with the Ghidorah power in this film, is that the Heisei Ghidorah is just the Showa Ghidorah, in a series that instead of having Kumonga`s and Ebirah`s is swamped with Hedorah`s and Mechagodzillas. Heisei Ghidorah gets undeserved hate.

Also in terms of monster action, while yeah it takes a while to get going, there`s a lot of great moments. The aforementioned Godzillasaurus scene, the appearance of King Ghidorah/fighting the jets, Ghidorah vs. Godzilla, Godzilla`s rampage in Sapporo, and Godzilla vs. MKG is all great poop. Ghidorah vs the Jets is a great, no doubt some scenes from KOTM will take inspiration. Godzilla`s attack on Sapporo is also underrated. It quickly establishes Godzilla as a legitimate threat. I think that the fights in this film, while a little brief, are satisfying and have a really good balance of melee and beams. I never see anyone bring up how Godzilla lifts Ghidorah up by the tail and slams him repeated into the ground.

Also props for like Godzilla vs. Biollante having one of the most unique plots other then Godzilla just appears and fights a random monster. The time travel component really makes this one stand out.

I realized how much of this is a subtle Invasion of The Astro Monster remake this is. Both films have:
-Evildoers/aliens who at first appear to be helping Humans
-Traitors to the evil group, Namikawa/Emmy and M11. Let`s also get the idea out that M11, like Namikawa is a being that appears to be mass-produced/looks the same.
-Ghidorah being controlled
-A very unique setting (replace Planet X with the Far past, in a way the cast is explorers of the past like Glenn and Fuji are to planet).

Not 54/Shin level, but definitely up there. I know the Heisei series sort of dips in quality after this but the first few films are great.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby eabaker » Thu May 23, 2019 7:41 am

LSD Jellyfish wrote:The other big source of nationalism controversy, involves Japan presumably taking over the world in the future, buying up portions of South America and Africa. While of course this is hugely nationalistic, a few lines of dialogue indicate that this isn`t a favorable outcome for Japan either. The reason being, is that in the future, Shindo`s company owns and runs japan. There`s a line about the company taking over. The fact that Shindo has a private nuclear submarine, is pointed out as a negative, and the fact that Shindo sort of worships Godzilla ties him is unsettling and shows an unhinged character. There`s a reason why Shindo`s lackey, in the beginning, is screaming in a museum like a raving lunatic. You aren`t intended to identify with him. Really, the film is more about the dangers of monopolies and economic wars.


While I agree with pretty much everything you had to say in this post, I wanted to single out this bit specifically.

To me, the thematic core of this movie is its paralleling of Shindo (and by extension Japanese economic practices of the era) and Godzilla. Shindo and Godzilla have both been corrupted, and have both become threats to Japan (Shindo an ideological thread, Godzilla an obvious physical threat) and to the world as a whole.

Now, to be fair, both threats are in a sense instigated by American actions. Obviously, both Shindo and Godzilla are damaged by the war. Godzilla's original transformation is then tied to American nuclear tests, while Shindo's transformation into a giant monster of industry it rooted in the post-war occupation and Japan's adoption of American-style capitalism.

In the end, I think the movie is presenting a world damaged by both physical and economic warfare. And while it may be seen as arrogant to suppose that Japan could become a world-conquering power... well, the movie was made for a Japanese audience, in order to send them, specifically, a cautionary message.

"Guys, uh, we're kind of becoming the bad guys here..." is hardly what I'd call fervent nationalism.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Postby Terasawa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:16 am

LSD Jellyfish wrote:I`d argue that Emmy is more of the protagonist of the film, and that Terasawa is more of an active observer but he is pretty cool.


I think the two of them share that role. Terasawa leads the film through the introduction of the 22nd century people but once the Futurians are revealed as villains and Emmy defects it's her show. Also, Anna Nakagawa receives top billing (besides Godzilla and King Ghidorah), the first woman so honored in a Godzilla movie.

One thing I love about this movie, and an aspect that doesn't get as much attention as it should, is the narrative's organic shift from Godzilla as protagonist to antagonist and Ghidorah's relative reversal as well. You have two major monster battles, featuring (mostly) the same monsters, but the character's roles are switched by the start of the second showdown. I think that's an inversion unique to this film. There's something similar in GvMG2 but it's not nearly as organic there and the roles of antagonist/protagonist aren't nearly as well defined as they are here.


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