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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:02 pm
by darthzilla99
One thing that always bothered me about this movie is not the time traveling stuff (because if you read this Sci fi article http://www.scifijapan.com/articles/2007 ... -godzilla/, the time traveling stuff makes sense), but the character's reactions to it. When Godzilla 'disappears' so to speak, how come none of the Japanese Government officials ask the question "How come we remember Godzilla still if he was wiped out of history?" Is there a plot detail I missed explaining the characters obliviousness or is that just a result of the writing of the film?

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:45 pm
by edgaguirus
I believe it's the result of a plot hole.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:16 pm
by KaijuCanuck
darthzilla99 wrote:One thing that always bothered me about this movie is not the time traveling stuff (because if you read this Sci fi article http://www.scifijapan.com/articles/2007 ... -godzilla/, the time traveling stuff makes sense), but the character's reactions to it. When Godzilla 'disappears' so to speak, how come none of the Japanese Government officials ask the question "How come we remember Godzilla still if he was wiped out of history?" Is there a plot detail I missed explaining the characters obliviousness or is that just a result of the writing of the film?


Yeah, it’s not a very tight script. I think the writing, and the charater reactions therein, is what has caused so much confusion for fans as to what exactly happened with the timeline. For this reason, it always surprises me that that is one of the more beloved entries in the series. I mean I enjoy it quite a bit for silly kaiju fan reasons, but in terms of filmmaking it’s a pretty messy entry.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:40 pm
by eabaker
KaijuCanuck wrote:
darthzilla99 wrote:One thing that always bothered me about this movie is not the time traveling stuff (because if you read this Sci fi article http://www.scifijapan.com/articles/2007 ... -godzilla/, the time traveling stuff makes sense), but the character's reactions to it. When Godzilla 'disappears' so to speak, how come none of the Japanese Government officials ask the question "How come we remember Godzilla still if he was wiped out of history?" Is there a plot detail I missed explaining the characters obliviousness or is that just a result of the writing of the film?


Yeah, it’s not a very tight script. I think the writing, and the charater reactions therein, is what has caused so much confusion for fans as to what exactly happened with the timeline. For this reason, it always surprises me that that is one of the more beloved entries in the series. I mean I enjoy it quite a bit for silly kaiju fan reasons, but in terms of filmmaking it’s a pretty messy entry.


In terms of plotting it's a messy entry, but in terms of story and theme it's a pretty strong entry.

To me, the Shindo/Godzilla/Japanese economy parallels are the heart of the movie. The plot really only exists to facilitate that.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:30 pm
by kamilleblu
Wait. So the military never attempted to manipulate Godzilla with a psychic again? That and reinventing the ANEB seem like they would be among the most worthwhile tools in the battle against Godzilla.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:40 pm
by Maritonic
kamilleblu wrote:Wait. So the military never attempted to manipulate Godzilla with a psychic again? That and reinventing the ANEB seem like they would be among the most worthwhile tools in the battle against Godzilla.


To be fair, if memory serves, after Miki uses her abilities against Godzilla in Biollante, she passes out on the oil platform. (I COULD be wrong about this, it's been a while). So they likely decided it wasn't worth the risk to her.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:42 pm
by eabaker
Maritonic wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:Wait. So the military never attempted to manipulate Godzilla with a psychic again? That and reinventing the ANEB seem like they would be among the most worthwhile tools in the battle against Godzilla.


To be fair, if memory serves, after Miki uses her abilities against Godzilla in Biollante, she passes out on the oil platform. (I COULD be wrong about this, it's been a while). So they likely decided it wasn't worth the risk to her.


Yes, she does. It takes everything she's got.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:26 pm
by King of the Monsters
The humans did try to manipulate Godzilla with Miki's psychic abilities again in Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla, with "Project T." They learned from Miki's experience in Godzilla vs. Biollante and tried to facilitate her ability to influence Godzilla using scientific equipment. They planted a receiver onto Godzilla's neck and used an amplifier to try and transmit Miki's brain waves to Godzilla. Unfortunately the project was still a failure, mainly due to Dr. Okubo's impatience and incompetence.

As for why they never tried to use the ANEB again, I would have to assume they simply didn't have the scientific expertise anymore following Shiragami's death.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:38 pm
by Ivo-goji
kamilleblu wrote:Wait. So the military never attempted to manipulate Godzilla with a psychic again? That and reinventing the ANEB seem like they would be among the most worthwhile tools in the battle against Godzilla.

You forgot Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla II, Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla, and Godzilla vs Destoroyah all involved military projects to manipulate or kill Godzilla with psychic aid.

ANEB required resources that did not survive the events of Godzilla vs Biollante (though it is odd that they never revisited Bio Major, who certainly had incentives to keep stealing G-Cells for their own creations...).

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:44 pm
by eabaker
Ivo-goji wrote:ANEB required resources that did not survive the events of Godzilla vs Biollante (though it is odd that they never revisited Bio Major, who certainly had incentives to keep stealing G-Cells for their own creations...).


I never thought about this before, but you could easily swap out Bio Major in place of the Yakuza in GvsSG.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:25 pm
by GalacticPetey
eabaker wrote:
Ivo-goji wrote:ANEB required resources that did not survive the events of Godzilla vs Biollante (though it is odd that they never revisited Bio Major, who certainly had incentives to keep stealing G-Cells for their own creations...).


I never thought about this before, but you could easily swap out Bio Major in place of the Yakuza in GvsSG.

Honestly with how little development that subplot has, it could have been anyone. You could have even named them the Red Bamboo is you were so inclined.

But I will say, having them be Bio Major would have been a fun bit of continuity.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:24 pm
by Ivo-goji
The way the early Heisei series set up all of these interesting bits of world building- Bio Major, Saradia, time travelers- it's somewhat baffling the later movies only really used the G-Force stuff.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:25 pm
by The One and Only
King of the Monsters wrote:The humans did try to manipulate Godzilla with Miki's psychic abilities again in Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla, with "Project T." They learned from Miki's experience in Godzilla vs. Biollante and tried to facilitate her ability to influence Godzilla using scientific equipment. They planted a receiver onto Godzilla's neck and used an amplifier to try and transmit Miki's brain waves to Godzilla. Unfortunately the project was still a failure, mainly due to Dr. Okubo's impatience and incompetence.

As for why they never tried to use the ANEB again, I would have to assume they simply didn't have the scientific expertise anymore following Shiragami's death.

Probably the government lacked the raw materials, a.k.a. the Godzilla cells, to create more of the ANEB. Or maybe the government ,and the powers that be decided to place a moratorium on ANEB project due to some concerns over the project's aftermath. Everyone and their uncle, from Bio Major ,and the Saradians, committing some vicious acts to get ahold of the ANEB. From releasing Godzilla from Mt. Mihara to force the government to give them the bacteria. To the Saradian assassination. Even the Americans, C.I.A.'s sabotage of Shiragami's research with the G-Cells. Or Shiragami's little side project that produced Biollante. Thus giving credit to Kirishima's predictions of creating monsters worse than the Big-G. Also the media ,and public opinion swayed the Japanese government into not doing any further research into the G-Cells as well. But despite all this I doubt the Japanese government couldn't cultivate a new supply of the ANEB if they wanted to. Unless some outside agency, the Saradians, Bio-Major, take your pick, destroyed the research that developed the ANEB. The JSDF, Dr. Seiko Okouchi ,and his foundation, would've had all the research, formula for the ANEB under some pretty tight security as the development of the bacteria continued at facility. In case Shiragami, Kirishima, the other researchers ended up meeting unfortunate ends. Or even the Okouchi Foundation's lab ended up being destroyed. So for a new team, lab to complete the work on the bacteria which was necessary to the defense of Japan from Godzilla at moment's notice.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:28 am
by Zarm
Ivo-goji wrote:The way the early Heisei series set up all of these interesting bits of world building- Bio Major, Saradia, time travelers- it's somewhat baffling the later movies only really used the G-Force stuff.


Well, they did use the legacy of Mecha King Ghidorah from the time travelers... but yeah, that is strange, now that you mention it.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:06 am
by kamilleblu
Shiragami's ANEB seems far easier to reproduce than the Oxygen Destroyer. Godzilla cells shouldn't be that difficult to obtain. Better yet, what about the cryogenic technology in Godzilla vs Destoroyah? It immobilized Burning Godzilla for six hours. The Heisei Era would be the most difficult timeline to revisit with all of the OP weapons the military has at its disposal.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:18 am
by Zarm
I thought that the ANEB took some special skill and know-how to develop- that the knowledge kinda died with the professor. I thought that was kind of the reason he was assassinated in the first place. It's kinda the Toho equivalent of the Captain America super-soldier serum.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:48 pm
by King of the Monsters
Yeah the film gives the impression that the only person skilled enough to work with G-Cells and engineer the ANEB is Dr. Shiragami himself. That's why Bio-Major and Saradia weren't content with just stealing G-Cells and making the ANEB themselves, they were both trying to steal the ANEB Shiragami made in Japan. The project couldn't even get off the ground in Japan until Shiragami signed on. Abdul Saluman ordered SSS9 to assassinate Shiragami specifically to ensure that Japan could never produce the ANEB again, once he realized Saradia wouldn't be able to get their hands on it. The assassination seemingly accomplished exactly that.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:57 am
by KaijuCanuck
Who would you guys say wins the final fight? Emiko succeeds in pulling Godzilla out to sea, but not in permanently ending the threat and thus restoring the future timeline. Godzilla gets pulled from Tokyo against his will, but strikes a killing blow against his attacker and survives to fight another day.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:31 am
by UltramanGoji
KaijuCanuck wrote:Who would you guys say wins the final fight? Emiko succeeds in pulling Godzilla out to sea, but not in permanently ending the threat and thus restoring the future timeline. Godzilla gets pulled from Tokyo against his will, but strikes a killing blow against his attacker and survives to fight another day.


Emiko is pretty clearly the victor, even if Godzilla survived. He wasn't killed, but he definitely was defeated.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:34 am
by Zarm
I mean, if Godzilla ends up in the ocean not of his own volition at the end of a film, that's pretty much a defeat for him, right? That's the rule. He jumps in, it's a victory. He gets knocked in, it's a loss. It's like losing a fighting game by ring-out. :)

(Well, okay, arguably Monster Zero is the one exception to the rule, but Ghidorah runs away just to clarify that the involuntary dunking is still a Godzilla victory).