Toho Kingdom

UltramanGoji wrote:

godzilla1541 wrote: I just don't get why so many people hate it.

I don't hate it, but it's a painfully plain film whose messages and themes are better portrayed in its predecessors (Mothra 61 and Mothra vs Godzilla).

I like the concept and look of Battra, the soundtrack isn't too bad and the change of pace from a military/government protagonist is a nice touch. Some of the effects are pretty bad, such as the Mothra Larva rampage in Tokyo, where the puppet/costume of the Mothra moves in an unnatural way and makes it look more like a toy. Some of the characters are rehashes of those from the aformentioned Mothra films and others are just not developed well enough for me to care.

It's not one of the worst in the series, but it certainly isn't anywhere near the top of my list.

Yeah, I enjoy it, I recognize some strengths - obviously the Battra design, but I am also fond of the score, and I actually like the lead characters - as well as some pretty significant weaknesses, mostly in the Mothra effects. It's definitely not a high point of the series, or even one I'd be likely to put in the top 50%. And I know that my opinion is partly informed by nostalgia, since back when I first got seriously into G-fandom this one and GvsKG were the brand new entries that could only be obtained on subbed bootleg, and only those within the fandom knew existed, so they felt special.

But a lot of the vitriol thrown at it these days surprises me. So many people rank it at the very bottom of the Heisei era, but at least at a structural level it's worlds better than the directionless mess that is Godzilla vs. Spacegodzilla.

I think, for me (someone who enjoys vs. Spacegodzilla greatly), the film is just... aimless. It feels like a retread of the last film, and while Godzilla and Battra give us something new and unique, after they disappear, the film flounders. The characters are a little too campy/silly for my tastes, the villain and environmental message are extremely overwrought and ham-fisted (especially the general who keeps melting down in the control room about how horrible things are, and the human-villain's ending rant/breakdown)... and again, between Godzilla's vanishing and reappearence, the plot is extremely slow and predictable (to me).

That said, it is a very pretty film, and the Mothra-song sequence against the sunset is one of my favorite sequences in the Heisei era (plus it's the only version I won where the song is actually subtitles so I know what the lyrics are, which I dig). Larve-Battra looks cool, and has a great underwater fight with Godzilla... so it's not like the film is without merit.

For me, this movie is mediocre, and sits smack dab in the middle between the good and the awful (which for me- though not for many people, I know- are Return of Godzilla, vs. Destroyah, and Mechagodzilla II, all of which I would rank beneath this film). For others that like those three films, though, I can understand how this one would be on the bottom (or second to Spacegodzilla, which I recognize has issues despite my affection for it).

I'm going to mirror what lots of others have said: this is easily the low point of the Heisei era.

The preachy environmental themes got agitating very quickly with the whole "HUMINZ R EBUL!!!" bullshit. We get it, humans have been causing damaging the environment. Care to offer some solution or any form of insight, rather than vehement finger-pointing?

The special effects were probably at their worst here. The cites that are destroyed don't look real in the slightest. The Godzilla suit is quite mediocre, both of Battra's forms look... fine... Mothra's imago prop is embarrassingly bad.

The human drama was incredibly bland. I can't even remember who the protagonist was.

The battle scenes were really poor, even by Heisei standards. It was all just mindless beam spraying, with the occasional destroyed building.

The best thing I can say about this film is that Ifukabe's soundtrack is as good as ever, and the updated Mothra songs are quite nice. Other than that, though? Complete and utter mediocrity.

Just watched this last night, actually.

This is a rare Godzilla film where the human story is far more interesting that the monster story. I'm not fond of Battra and think he just dilutes Mothra's significance. His larva looks like a plastic toy, and the monster action is weak. The ocean fight is pretty much just Godzilla throwing Mothra into the water several times. I do like the score and Battra's initial rampage through the city. It's a pretty weak monster movie and a poor representation of Mothra.

Just watched this during the El Rey Christmas marathon, the environment message was fine for me, but I do admit it made me feel like I was watching a Showa Gamera film at times.

Bit of a rant. Also this movie introduced one of my favorite monsters, Battra! Also Mothra is a bit if a d!¢k in this movie, but I guess it couldn't be helped in her situation.

UltimateDitto wrote:

Spoiler:

The one thing that got on my nerves was when I started noticing how the female protagonists made it seem like men (not mankind in general) were specifically responsible for the planet being skreeonked. I understand that like 95% of the problem comes from men, but the women in this movie act like they are blamless and pure.

This bugged me alot, heck I noticed this in GvMG2 and a bit in GvSG, the other Heisei movies don't really have this problem, at least from what I can remember.

You probably didn't need to use spoiler tags for this. It's not much of a spoiler, the movie is a quarter of a century old, and it's prettty safe to assume that almost anyone posting here has seen it.

Anyway, I wonder if what you're identifying is specific to the dub; I've never noticed anything of the kind in the movie, but I haven't bothered to watch the dub in about twenty years.

I know it isn't much of a spoiler, but I didn't want that paragraph to take up half of my post.

Yes I am talking about the dub, I personally haven't seen the sub version so I am not sure if that problem is in the Japanese version.

Was never able to get the Japanese version, buy boy, the English dub is really horrible. It's really jarring.
What's also jarring is how bad this is compared to the previous three movies. I know it's a trend to downgrade GvKG but there is a huge drop-off.

I feel like this a "jump the shark" movie- all based on the first 30 minutes with the humans. (I agree that the divorce story is actually unique for Godzilla and it was good on paper, but the movie starts off as a Raiders of the Lost Ark ripoff.)

It basically never feels like a Godzilla movie. It feels like a Mothra film with Godzilla sidelined and taking a backseat to all the other characters.

I like Battra's look and feel bad for him.

There are points as others have mentioned, but considering how good I feel the previous three movies were...was there an excuse to write such a poorly paced story and downgrade Godzilla's role?

Shobijin wrote:Was never able to get the Japanese version, buy boy, the English dub is really horrible. It's really jarring.
What's also jarring is how bad this is compared to the previous three movies. I know it's a trend to downgrade GvKG but there is a huge drop-off.

I feel like this a "jump the shark" movie- all based on the first 30 minutes with the humans. (I agree that the divorce story is actually unique for Godzilla and it was good on paper, but the movie starts off as a Raiders of the Lost Ark ripoff.)

It basically never feels like a Godzilla movie. It feels like a Mothra film with Godzilla sidelined and taking a backseat to all the other characters.

I like Battra's look and feel bad for him.

There are points as others have mentioned, but considering how good I feel the previous three movies were...was there an excuse to write such a poorly paced story and downgrade Godzilla's role?

Yeah, the English dubs for the Heisei era do go downhill after Godzilla vs King Ghidorah, Godzilla vs Biollante & Godzilla 1985 having the best dubs of the Heisei era. Yes, Godzilla 1985 has its issues, but at least the voice actors sounded more professional than the international dub for the Return of Godzilla did, & definitely better than the dub for Godzilla vs Mothra. I'm glad that recent Toho Godzilla films like Shin Gojira have improved greatly in regards to the english dubbing department. Also, I do still agree that Godzilla vs Mothra feels more like a Mothra movie than a Godzilla film, they should have given Godzilla more screen time, & perhaps the humans should not have been so surprised when he survived yet another lava bath lol.

Shobijin wrote:There are points as others have mentioned, but considering how good I feel the previous three movies were...was there an excuse to write such a poorly paced story and downgrade Godzilla's role?

The movie got a new director in the form of Takao Okawara, while Kazuki Omori directed the last 2 films. The script was also just a modified version of Mothra vs. Bagan, with Battra taking Bagan's role. I think it was modified over the course of 2 weeks? It was done to save time so they wouldn't have to take months writing a totally new script. Mothra was obviously the lead in that scrapped draft, which is why she's more of the central character here as opposed to Godzilla, who was more or less just tacked on.

Zarm wrote:For me, this movie is mediocre, and sits smack dab in the middle between the good and the awful (which for me- though not for many people, I know- are Return of Godzilla, vs. Destroyah, and Mechagodzilla II, all of which I would rank beneath this film). For others that like those three films, though, I can understand how this one would be on the bottom (or second to Spacegodzilla, which I recognize has issues despite my affection for it).

I've seen a lot of lists and lot of opinions. But I've never seen Return of Godzilla ranked below Godzilla vs Mothra: Battle for the Earth.

I am baffled as to why that movie is ranked so highly. Whereas I found it dull, slow, and with the Godzilla 'rampage' portrayed ineptly for the tone, vs. Mothra had some fun action. And while its characters were kind of annoying, I felt like they exceeded the charisma of blocks of wood, which the RoG cast never did for me.

I do find it strange to be so at-odds with fandom over the more politics-heavy entries in the canon. But for me, they tend to offer very flat characters and very slow narratives that have little to appeal beyond the politics, which are insufficient to carry the whole film. Vs Mothra, for all its flaws (and they are numerous!) is simply more entertaining for me. It's not as deep, nor as historically significant, but it's just a more watchable movie.

I love Return of Godzilla - it's one of my 5 favorites in the franchise, and one of my top 3 of the Heisei series - but I will certainly acknowledge that the characters are mostly pretty flat.

However, the atmosphere and the steady, deliberate pacing really appeal to me.

I'm also not nearly as harsh on vs. Mothra as many fans are these days, though. For me, it hovers right around the middle of the Heisei entries; I don't think it's anywhere near as good as its three predecessors, but I also don't find it as lousy as Mechagodzilla II or SpaceGodzilla. I guess I'd rank it a little above Destroyah, but they have such different strengths and weaknesses that it's hard to compare them 1:1.

As Zarm says, I find it very watchable. It's not a masterpiece, it's not one I'd show to a neophyte to introduce them to the genre, but once every couple of years it's one that I enjoy putting on when I have about 100 minutes to kill.

Watched this last night and a few thoughts occurred to me whilst doing so.

First time I saw this movie I thought it was one of the weaker Heisei movies. But on rewatches and this more recent one I am warming up to this movie quite a bit. Mostly because of the protagonist characters I think.

A few questions.

When Godzilla blows up one of the rotorless helicopters, the theme tune automatically stops. Are we to assume that this helicopter was playing the theme diegetically?

Mothra places a purity seal on the spot of water in the ocean that Godzilla was dropped in. Presumably to keep him in place. But there is no explanation in the following film regarding this.

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote: Mothra places a purity seal on the spot of water in the ocean that Godzilla was dropped in. Presumably to keep him in place. But there is no explanation in the following film regarding this.

I mean, Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla 2 is all about technology and realistic(ish) stuff. It'd be kinda weird if during a high tech military briefing, someone went "Godzilla disappeared after the actual god that is one hundred percent confirmed to be real sealed him with her honest to god holy magical power." Hell, the fact nobody else mentioned it is weird. But that's the Heisei series for you.
We follow stirct continuity and realism untill it actually matters!

Added in 47 seconds:

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote: When Godzilla blows up one of the rotorless helicopters, the theme tune automatically stops. Are we to assume that this helicopter was playing the theme diegetically?

Ifukube just really liked those guys.

Godzilla eventually revived, just swam down, out and under the seal. Somewhere in space, Mothra groused to herself "Dang it- this is why I usually bury them in dirt!"

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:Mothra places a purity seal on the spot of water in the ocean that Godzilla was dropped in. Presumably to keep him in place. But there is no explanation in the following film regarding this.

It's a scene recycled from the Mothra vs. Bagan draft. In that, the seal is meant to keep Bagan from reawakening, unless mankind screws up again and wakes him. But for this movie... I guess it was just included because it sounded cool in the original script? If it was supposed to lock Godzilla away, it did a very poor job of it.

GigaBowserG wrote:

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:Mothra places a purity seal on the spot of water in the ocean that Godzilla was dropped in. Presumably to keep him in place. But there is no explanation in the following film regarding this.

It's a scene recycled from the Mothra vs. Bagan draft. In that, the seal is meant to keep Bagan from reawakening, unless mankind screws up again and wakes him. But for this movie... I guess it was just included because it sounded cool in the original script? If it was supposed to lock Godzilla away, it did a very poor job of it.

Maybe it was to make Godzilla`s soul... pure?
I mean, Godzilla becomes way more sympathetic after he escapes, but that`s probably just a result of circumstances, or is it?

Andrew the Gojifan wrote:

GigaBowserG wrote:

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:Mothra places a purity seal on the spot of water in the ocean that Godzilla was dropped in. Presumably to keep him in place. But there is no explanation in the following film regarding this.

It's a scene recycled from the Mothra vs. Bagan draft. In that, the seal is meant to keep Bagan from reawakening, unless mankind screws up again and wakes him. But for this movie... I guess it was just included because it sounded cool in the original script? If it was supposed to lock Godzilla away, it did a very poor job of it.

Maybe it was to make Godzilla`s soul... pure?
I mean, Godzilla becomes way more sympathetic after he escapes, but that`s probably just a result of circumstances, or is it?

Probably the result of circumstances, I doubt Mothra's seal of pixie dust had much to do with Godzilla's decision to become an adoptive father

Unlikely though it may be, I actually really like that theory. Maybe the seal also accounts for Godzilla's eyes turning orange.