So who actually likes the Heisei series?

[eabaker]

A less serious tone is not synonymous with camp.

Exactly. All of SaferEmerald's examples from KKvsG were examples of comedy, not camp, and the examples from Smog Monster and Ghidorah were maybe examples of kitsch (although in the case of Hedorah, I'd say effective surrealism, and with Ghidorah I'd go with pulpy pure entertainment).

[Goji]

Ghidorah has the whole silly princess and secret agent thing going on.

I agree with Hellspawn. Exactly how is this an example of camp?

[SaferEmerald]

As for Invasion of the Astro-Monster, please see the video I posted earlier.
Ghidorah has the whole silly princess and secret agent thing going on.

I didn't see a video from you earlier in the past few pages (Be free to repost it). I don't see how having a princess and secret agents going on in the movie makes it campy. The tone of the movie was just fine like any other Sci-Fi movie released at the time. I don't think the movie being light means being campy. When I think of campy movies, I would think of something like The Spirit or Batman & Robin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nLIV9uQtLM

They're definitely cheesy. Which camp is synonymous with.

I agree with Hellspawn. Exactly how is this an example of camp?

Cheesy, done to death. Even at the time it was being done to death. The lulzy fight scenes with secret agents and all that nonsense.

[eabaker]

As for Invasion of the Astro-Monster, please see the video I posted earlier.
Ghidorah has the whole silly princess and secret agent thing going on.

I didn't see a video from you earlier in the past few pages (Be free to repost it). I don't see how having a princess and secret agents going on in the movie makes it campy. The tone of the movie was just fine like any other Sci-Fi movie released at the time. I don't think the movie being light means being campy. When I think of campy movies, I would think of something like The Spirit or Batman & Robin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nLIV9uQtLM

They're definitely cheesy. Which camp is synonymous with.

I agree with Hellspawn. Exactly how is this an example of camp?

Cheesy, done to death. Even at the time it was being done to death. The lulzy fight scenes with secret agents and all that nonsense.

Cheesy is not synonymous with campy.

Read a little Susan Sontag. Camp is a very specific aesthetic. I will say that the Gojira Shie, which you posted, is about as close as Godzilla got to true camp prior to godzilla Final Wars, which is the only Godzilla movie to really dedicate itself to anything like the true camp aesthetic.

"Cheesy," on the other hand, is a vague, colloquial term, and far more subjective. It generally suggests a sense of inauthenticity surrounding an attempt at conveying a theme, emotion, or message. A good example of cheesy filmmaking would be a cloying romcom in which the audience is given no particular source of emotional investment in overworught, cliched characters. A case could probably made for the gangster elements in both Ghidorah and Dogora being cheesy, in that they do not feel like well-realized executions of the gangster genre.

[Captain Aktion]

I don't really find that "cheesy", in context. At this point in the series, Godzilla definitely has a personality; not to mention the Shie dance was a result of goofing off, but Tsuburaya and Honda loved it and kept it.
Y'see, I think "cheese" means a device or method of plotting that cheats. It can be a story-telling shortcut like voice-over or killing the dog. It can be a McGuffin or a Deus Ex Machina. It's not really (though often used as such) camp. Cheese is a crutch, camp is an aesthetic.

Sure, Godzilla's Shie could be considered camp, and if it is intentional, then it shows how much Toho was aware of the trends and a commitment to adapt the character to them. It's actually pretty brilliant; if that's what it was.

However, I don't personally see it as camp; I don't think it was any more outrageous than a monster fight is to begin with. It never "breaks" the character or situation nor does it really call undue attention to itself; it's a very brief shot, and a bit of an audience "cleanser" after all of the tense scenes preceding it. Plus, it reminds the viewer that these monsters are characters, not simply devices. A problem lots of monster films have.

And it certainly wasn't "cheesy". By this point, Godzilla, the character, has earned that dance.

EDIT: Eabaker, you ninja...

[Goji]

Jesus Christ, not this again.

In the five years I've been here, I don't know how many times I've seen people reference the Shie dance from MONSTER ZERO as something that completely and totally ruins the movie for them/or is "too silly, so I don't like this movie much".

[Captain Aktion]

For me, the Shie is important to Godzilla. It truly marks the "turn" from beast to superhero.

I know some people really hate that Godzilla makes that change, but what can you do? Go watch the Heisei series (where he's an anti-hero) or stick to Gojira. I dunno, just try to judge the films for what they do, not what you wish they'd do.

[Goji]

Cheesy, done to death. Even at the time it was being done to death. The lulzy fight scenes with secret agents and all that nonsense.

Pfffft...you can't possibly be serious.

It's funny, I could name probably a dozen scenes from the 90's films that are equally as "corny", or "cheesy", if you will.

But that's the thing..said scene isn't even remotely goofy.

I know some people really hate that Godzilla makes that change, but what can you do? Go watch the Heisei series (where he's an anti-hero) or stick to Gojira. I dunno, just try to judge the films for what they do, not what you wish they'd do.

Yeah, seriously. If the Showa sequels aren't your cup of tea, stick to GODZILLA '54 and the "DARK AND GRITTY" Heisei films.

[eabaker]

EDIT: Eabaker, you ninja...

I say that was unconscious teamwork, sir. Our points correlated without redundancy.

[Captain Aktion]

^Go Team SY-3!

[eabaker]

^Go Team SY-3!

So, in this metaphor, we're cutting down the "Kilaak control device" of ignorance with our "laser" of pedantry?

[Captain Aktion]

I like to think of them as "logic" lasers, but yeah, I guess we are a bit pedantic. Oh well, GO TEAM SY-3!

[eabaker]

I like to think of them as "logic" lasers, but yeah, I guess we are a bit pedantic. Oh well, GO TEAM SY-3!

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to spend the rest of the day hearing Kenji Sahara's voice saying, "Moonright Es Wy Suree" in my head...

Oh, and there is something of a camp flavor about the Kilaaks. If they were played by men in drag, that would lend some serious support to the camp claims.

[Captain Aktion]

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to spend the rest of the day hearing Kenji Sahara's voice saying, "Moonright Es Wy Suree" in my head...

DUDE! It has already begun for me! I'm not kidding; after I posted that I turned to my GF and started saying that...God, I'm going to say it to someone at work, I know it.

[eabaker]

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to spend the rest of the day hearing Kenji Sahara's voice saying, "Moonright Es Wy Suree" in my head...

DUDE! It has already begun for me! I'm not kidding; after I posted that I turned to my GF and started saying that...God, I'm going to say it to someone at work, I know it.

Ahem! I was trying to route our secondary tangent back towards the initial tangent (which still wouldn't get us all the way back to the topic of this thread..).

I'm on AIM with my lady, so I guess I could IM her with "Moonright Es Wy Suree," but it'd probably just confuse her. She likes DAM, but I doubt she remembers that particular delivery. Mostly, she responded well to the cinematography in that one.

Cinematography which was much better than what we saw in most of the Heisei flicks.

And BAM! Back to topic!

[Berzerkgodzilla]

You know, the Heisei series is my favorite as well, but people saying they like them for being "DARK AND GRITTY" just confuses me, I mean really, when exactly did the Heisei series become dark and gritty? And the Showa series campy and goofy for that matter?

[eabaker]

You know, the Heisei series is my favorite as well, but people saying they like them for being "DARK AND GRITTY" just confuses me, I mean really, when exactly did the Heisei series become dark and gritty? And the Showa series campy and goofy for that matter?

When people (a.) stopped knowing what most of those words meant, and (b.) stopped having the patience to talk about individual films when it's easier to paint entire eras with broad strokes.

EDIT: See? This is an example of me being kind of a prick, guys.

[SaferEmerald]

And again people are accusing me of not liking those films. Really only 3 or 4 fit the bill of "unwatchable". I don't mind camp. I just acknowledge that it is there.

Take the stick out of your collective ass, please

[Goji]

EDIT: See? This is an example of me being kind of a prick, guys.

Hmm, I guess I just don't see it that way.

Take the stick out of your collective ass, please

I don't know about you brah, but nothing goes up my poop shoot.

[SaferEmerald]

Why so defensive mang?