Will Toho succeed in suppressing/wiping out certain US Cuts?

[Chrispy_G]

Legit question. I'm not arguing quality or non quality of the US versions. I'm not arguing the merit of preserving them.

I'm asking....if Toho decides they want the US cuts gone....are they gone?

I'm pretty sure that even Japanese Godzilla releases have included "King of the Monsters", and that Toho seems to take no issue with suppressing it or ignoring it in any kind of way. King Kong vs Godzilla obviously isn't up to Toho. Universal has the US cut and so that version won't go away. They approved every change for Godzilla 2000's US version, and apparently like that version and use it as their official version of the movie outside of Japan. So Godzilla 2000's US cut is safe.

Clearly they don't really care about or actively dislike all of the others.

Mathematically speaking....are these versions doomed to fade into total digital obscurity?

Some of these films like Sea Monster, Smog Monster and Godzilla 1985, haven't had their unique US versions released in ANY official capacity since the VHS days. So...they do not officially exist in the "disc format" of the new millennium. Never even released on DVD and we're well into the age of 4K(Where I don't expect any of the vintage Godzilla films will ever be released)

Gigantis, The Thing, Ghidrah, Monster Zero, and Revenge all were released on DVD by Classic Media in the 2006/2007 range. Those are all out of print and are well over a decade old. Those versions have never seen the light of day on Blu Ray.

At this point, we are dealing with an entire generation of new fans that would have come to Godzilla, that are still coming to Godzilla....IF they are exposed to these older films at all, it is through the original cuts. They are likely largely unaware of other versions, and if they are aware, quite possibly simply not interested.

With all modern releases Toho has completely emphasized the original cuts and international dubs.

The highly publicized, strong selling Criterion Set...the only North American release to put all Showa films together and all on Blu Ray....has 2 US cuts on it. For any new fan brought in by the MonsterVerse or even the Anime Trilogy who goes further....this is the only way to get the whole Showa Era on Blu Ray in the US. Regardless of the quality of the set. If you are in the US, and want to buy all of these films on disc...the Criterion Box Set is the only practical choice for a lot of reasons.

I know there are 'means' to find the US versions online in varying degrees of quality. I know there is a population of fans who pursue these versions....but who carries the torch next?

With SO MANY Godzilla films for new fans to enjoy, I feel that for many who are just becoming fans, their interest in a lot of the older films might be purely academic or obligatory. On that level, having no association with the US cuts or realistic way to access them....new fans just might not care at all.

I just wonder....to go down the hole of becoming a Godzilla fan, becoming a fan of all of the older Godzilla films, diving deep enough to discover the US cuts, and then watching them and becoming one who prefers them.....the amount of new Godzilla fans that will meet all of those criteria seems slim.

On a long enough timeline....does Toho get what they want? Do the Us versions eventually just hit faded memory status outside of a few dozen aging enthusiasts on the internet, exchanging discs and files among themselves....with there being no "market" for that within the next wave or two of new, younger fans?

[realinvaderdesign]

Its possible, I suppose in the case of certain movies like gigantus and the us cut of rodan will possibly be in the public domain in the next 25-30 years so it maybe a while before those dubs/us cuts resurface. That is unless the house of mouse extends copyright law again or tohos trademarks get in the way.

[Great Hierophant]

The House of Mouse sounded out legislators about extending the copyright term about three years ago and found a distinct lack of enthusiasm and well-organized opposition. So a copyright extension is unlikely.

A trademark in a name or character may prevent you from making new works with that name or character but does not prohibit republishing works fallen into the public domain featuring that character, otherwise you would have perpetual copyright.

Except for maybe a 4K Ultra HD release of Godzilla 2014, a Blu-ray of the Anime Trilogy and media releases of Godzilla vs. Kong, with Criterion's Showa set, I wouldn't expect to see any further Toho or Toho-derived tokusatsu films for quite a while.

The old U.S. versions will not die, but at present do not expect them to keep pace officially with current technology. Remember that for twenty years, they were the only versions available for almost every film (with a few exceptions).

[Terasawa]

Nearly every "U.S. version" on the 2006-07 Classic Media discs is a recreation. Those are literally only superior to similar fan efforts in that they were officially sanctioned and released. None of the U.S. versions released by Classic Media is an accurate representation of the original U.S. releases, but frequently the changes and errors are insignificant enough that the garden variety fan won't notice or care.

Here's a list of every U.S. version of the Showa Godzilla movies that has been accurately presented on DVD or Blu-ray:

• Godzilla, King of the Monsters! [Criterion release only]
• King Kong vs. Godzilla

The Simitar DVD release of Monster Zero is 100% accurate but that disc is 21 years old and uses an especially shitty non-anamorphic transfer of the film. It's no better than the same company's letterboxed VHS of the title so there's no sense in listing it with the two HD transfers above or considering that version of the film "safe". The U.S. releases of Gigan thru TOMG used Toho's export version audio, and at least the uncut and untampered English soundtracks for Megalon and the Mechagodzilla films are now available on Blu-ray, but that's not the same as preserving those films' maligned U.S. edits.

Janus also has Rodan and Gargantuas. The Janus version of WOTG has been the Toho export dub, while apparently only the Japanese version of Rodan is available. They've given no indication that the unique U.S. versions of either will survive. The loss of both would be tragic, of course, but especially so for WOTG, which features several minutes of Toho footage unused in the Japanese/international versions of the film. It's also the only version of the film with Russ Tamblyn's voice (not his original performance, however). The U.S. versions of both were issued on DVD by Classic Media in 2008 but they're woefully inadequate today: WOTG is complete but it's a pitiful encode that was barely competent for DVD in 2008 (why the hell isn't it encoded at 23.976p???) and Rodan is a video transfer that dates back to 1983 (!) at the very latest. These survive on DVD only on a technicality.

U.S. release versions of The H-Man, Battle in Outer Space, Mothra, Godzilla 2000 (Sony) and King Kong Escapes (Universal) exist in high definition by virtue of the films having been licensed in apparent perpetuity. (The licensing arrangement for G2K is unclear to me. AFAIK it may revert to Toho someday, at which point the U.S. version may be supplanted.) The current HD versions of Mothra and G2K are not 1:1 with the theatrical releases of those films but are at least very close. As with the Classic Media recreations, the changes don't affect the enjoyment of the films themselves and most fans unfortunately don't notice or care.

Yes, Toho has released certain American versions of the films in Japan. KOTM has been issued on video and DVD (both times from a 1983 video master); Godzilla vs. Mothra was seen on Laserdisc (this is the disastrous 1980s/90s version of Godzilla vs the Thing); Frankenstein Conquers the World on DVD (an even more disastrous approximation of this film from a relatively strong HD transfer); WOTG on VHS and DVD (a different and better transfer for DVD than Classic Media's release, although it's cropped to 1.78); Godzilla 1985 on VHS, twice. If it's not clear already, these were all transfers created in the U.S., and as such these versions wouldn't have seen release in Japan at all had it not been for the cooperation of UPA/Classic Media/Monsters HD (and New World, apparently, in the case of G85). So this is a pretty moot point altogether.

All that said, I think the question asked in this thread's title is a farce. Toho has already done a magnificent job suppressing and disappearing the American versions of these films. Until or unless Toho changes its tune, these versions will only survive via inadequate and incomplete copies on obsolete decades-old media. In the meantime, I'd say it's up to the fans, but y'all are too busy buying recycled Bandai molds.

[Godzilla21]

I have the Classic Media editions for all the American edits so I'm set there. Making sure to hold onto them since Toho are a bunch of assholes.

[The Octopus]

^Me too. I still have my beloved GRA VHS tape that I bought back in 1989 as well.

[Godzilla21]

^Me too. I still have my beloved GRA VHS tape that I bought back in 1989 as well.

Haha so do I! The one with Godzilla and Anguirus stand up and fighting right? I ran around the house in delight when I got that at 6 years old.

[Tamura]

They will not.

[Chrispy_G]

They will not.

According to some above in the thread, they already have.

How many members of the Godzilla fandom are even actively pursuing and downloading/acquiring these "lost" US versions anyway? It feels like we start to deal with fractions of fractions of the fanbase when you get down to the nitty gritty of it.

Hell, we are getting into territory where the thought of there being "US versions" of so many Showa films won't even occur to most new fans. Beyond not caring, they won't even know of any of it.

[LSD Jellyfish]

They will not.

According to some above in the thread, they already have.

How many members of the Godzilla fandom are even actively pursuing and downloading/acquiring these "lost" US versions anyway? It feels like we start to deal with fractions of fractions of the fanbase when you get down to the nitty gritty of it.

Hell, we are getting into territory where the thought of there being "US versions" of so many Showa films won't even occur to most new fans. Beyond not caring, they won't even know of any of it.

I have a bunch of them downloaded from a specific site that everyone who is trying to preserve this stuff knows about. I think the main site itself has also done a good job at preserving history (by having lobby cards) and other such useful info.

That being said, there’s definitely going to be a cut-off/generational shift, regardless of the topic at hand. I don’t mean this in a mean way, but I’m pretty sure there’s some fans on this site that have never used a VHS before, or more specifically a Godzilla VHS.

Also, for what it’s worth, a few days ago the actor for M11 was going over American titles for Godzilla names with a Japanese audience and explaining the difference in meaning. A few people were really confused why Godzilla vs. Gigan was called Godzilla on Monster Island. It wasn’t an embrace of it, but it was acknowledgement, and at the same time you can see why Toho would want some more stricter control over some of the older titles that are misleading/confusing.

[Tamura]

They will not.

According to some above in the thread, they already have.

They have not. Toho always fails at suppressing media, ultimately. For instance, I'm able to find copies of Prophecies of Nostradamus and Half Human pretty easily. There are fans fighting the good fight right now - seeking the best source material for the dubs on analog video, DVD or film.

[heiseigodzilla425]

Also, for what it’s worth, a few days ago the actor for M11 was going over American titles for Godzilla names with a Japanese audience and explaining the difference in meaning. A few people were really confused why Godzilla vs. Gigan was called Godzilla on Monster Island. It wasn’t an embrace of it, but it was acknowledgement, and at the same time you can see why Toho would want some more stricter control over some of the older titles that are misleading/confusing.

I would have loved it if he had gone over the German titles with that audience, that would have been fun to watch.

[Terasawa]

Hell, we are getting into territory where the thought of there being "US versions" of so many Showa films won't even occur to most new fans. Beyond not caring, they won't even know of any of it.

I mean, I guess so, but what's the point of saying this? They're only going to be "new fans" for so long. They'll either continue to explore what's out there or call it a day, and if they do the former they're bound to learn about the "discontinued" versions.

Beyond buying the latest $200 toys or whatever, I think -all things considered- a lot of this forum is made of up of these pretty casual fans. How many have actively sought out the non-Godzilla movies made by the same filmmakers during the same period? I know you're opposed to bootlegging or downloading movies but it's not like it's at all difficult to see Frankenstein Conquers the World or even Bye-Bye Jupiter if you really want to. Even so-called "rare" and "banned" films like Half Human and Prophecies of Nostradamus are ridiculously easy to get your hands on, despite Toho's best intentions. How many people here have read front-to-back any of the limited English language reference works on these movies? (Not that there's anything wrong with fans who haven't or won't do either.)

There will always be fans who want to know everything they can about these movies, and part of that knowledge requires seeking out and learning about the alternate versions of these movies.

It feels to me like you're trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes whenever these come up, for some reason. I don't understand the point of this topic, which is ostensibly asking a question for which you've already determined an answer. It feels like an attempted battle cry to say "forget about this stuff so we can move on."

It's up to fans who actually care about these things to keep them alive, which is the spirit of Tamura's post. Fans trying to bury them because of indifference or perceived inevitability or whatever else are frankly just getting in the way for no good reason.

[gvamp]

In official releases possibly it depends on if Toho gets the stick out of their ass or not. In unofficial releases no they will not disappear, there have been fans out there that have already reconstructed films like DAM AIP and Smog Monster. Also adding to that and reaching out past the Godzilla fandom, Star Wars fans have already started making a 4K master of the pre-enhanced versions of Episodes IV-VI.

[Space Hunter M]

In unofficial releases no they will not disappear

Yeah. The grey market underbelly of this fandom has been doing the dirty work of getting rare stuff passed around for years, and if anything, these versions are slowly becoming more available in a technical sense now than they've ever been before.

There's always been demand for this stuff, in the right places. It just so happens that the surface level fandom is one of the most woefully uncooperative ones in existence.

[LSD Jellyfish]

In unofficial releases no they will not disappear

Yeah. The grey market underbelly of this fandom has been doing the dirty work of getting rare stuff passed around for years, and if anything, these versions are slowly becoming more available in a technical sense now than they've ever been before.

There's always been demand for this stuff, in the right places. It just so happens that the surface level fandom is one of the most woefully uncooperative ones in existence.

"Shut up you filthy bootlegger!"

[Chrispy_G]

I wonder how much penetration into the populous the various streams/downloads/bootleg copies have.

I mean....we are talking what? A couple hundred, a couple thousand fans "fighting the good fight"....vs the size of the total Godzilla fanbase as it currently stands today.

It just feels like an exercise in futility. If Toho wants the English versions gone, or at least...cast aside and left unrestored, unpromoted, unreleased....in the grand scheme of things, that is what they are going to get.

I do think there will always be that one guy standing in a room of 100 people screaming that he has a version none of them have ever seen or care about, and that he likes it more than the original version they all know and own.

[canofhumdingers]

Well, maybe for now. But you seem to be forgetting that (barring any more extensions by Congress) the copyrights for those films WILL eventually run out and they will become public domain. Once that happens they will be able to be legally made available for anyone, by anyone who has them. Won’t it be nice that those “few obsessive fans” went to the time, effort, and expense to save and preserve them as best they could?

[omgitsgodzilla]

Most people go to the trouble of understanding what somebody's goals are before declaring their attempts to accomplish them futile.

In this case, we're talking about providing alternatives to what's officially available, and filling gaps left by the official handlers of these films. We can't very well control those parties' intentions to address or ignore those gaps, unfortunately, so we do what we can to address it ourselves by making those alternatives available in the best quality we're able to provide. As long as people can access those alternatives, how are we failing? In other words, how is it futile?

The fact is, for every law-abiding citizen who wouldn't dare seek out or ask for more than the corporate landlords mining profit from these films care to make available to them, there are other fans who will check out an alternate version of something they know and love, even just out of idle curiosity, if it's made available to them. I don't doubt most of them would gladly pay for it if it were officially released, but not everyone's so dedicated to only going that route no matter how limited it becomes.

I do think there will always be that one guy standing in a room of people doing what they can to alleviate a problem screaming that they're irrelevant and obsolete because the problem exists at all, and that he likes things as they are with the problem unaddressed just fine.

[Terasawa]

I can guarantee there will always be more than “one person” that knows about these versions. Having seen them may be different, but not all of us are as opposed to the history of these movies as you are, Chrispy.