Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:57 am

I do see what you mean about the colors likely still being problematic on any future transfer. The 4K Kong restoration is a significant improvement over the Hi-Vision, but it's still for whatever reason graded to a pretty dull appearance compared to the Champion broadcast. I think SHM suggested this was to make the bulk of the film look more consistent with some of the trims. In any case, it seems to have had more of Toho's attention, considering it was promoted a lot more heavily. Do we have any information on who did the 4K job and/or the Champions?
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Tamura » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:21 pm

I would chalk up the brown tint and milky contrast in Kong’s case to the taste choice of Hayato Komori, who did the color on all the Hi-Visions, the 4K ‘54 and probably the 4K Kong. There is an interview where he stated that the West seems to prefer higher contrast, which is just a super weird thing to say. The fading of the trims is not to such an extent that you can’t get a normal color balance out of them. I see a wealth of color underneath the brown filtration in both the trims and the rest of the film.

Both Kong and G54 were scanned on the Arriscan at Togen... same lab as the Hi-Vision transfers. Togen had their Arri even before the HV transfers were created. Kind of goes to show how unserious the HVs were. The Champions were also transferred at Togen. The scanner and resolution chosen aren’t known.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:41 pm

Tamura wrote:I would chalk up the brown tint and milky contrast in Kong’s case to the taste choice of Hayato Komori, who did the color on all the Hi-Visions, the 4K ‘54 and probably the 4K Kong. There is an interview where he stated that the West seems to prefer higher contrast, which is just a super weird thing to say. The fading of the trims is not to such an extent that you can’t get a normal color balance out of them. I see a wealth of color underneath the brown filtration in both the trims and the rest of the film.

Both Kong and G54 were scanned on the Arriscan at Togen... same lab as the Hi-Vision transfers. Togen had their Arri even before the HV transfers were created. Kind of goes to show how unserious the HVs were. The Champions were also transferred at Togen. The scanner and resolution chosen aren’t known.

Didn't know we knew the colorist's name. I don't know what to do with this information.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Tamura » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:46 pm

Many pages ago I posted honest “about these transfers” specs Criterion could use. That was probably the first time his name ever appeared in English.

Tamura wrote:The high definition digital transfers of the thirteen Japanese release versions ofGodzilla Raids Again, King Kong vs. Godzilla, Mothra vs. Godzilla, Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster, Invasion of Astro-Monster, Ebirah, Horror of the Deep, Son of Godzilla, Destroy All Monsters, All Monsters Attack, Godzilla vs. Hedorah, Godzilla vs. Gigan, Godzilla vs. Megalon, Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla, and Terror of Mechagodzilla are presented in their original aspect ratio of 2.35:1. Black bars at the top and bottom of the screen are normal for this format.

These transfers were created in 2008 on a Cintel C-Reality telecine from 35mm low contrast prints struck for video from an array of original camera negatives and duplicate negatives. Video noise inherent to transfers of low contrast prints on this telecine was managed by applying a blur filter. Several minutes of
King Kong vs. Godzilla are culled from an analog video source created in 1991. Colorist: Hayato Komori/Togen, Tokyo.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby GodzillavsZilla » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:42 pm

Terasawa wrote:Imagine trying to win an argument by saying “I didn’t read what you wrote because it was too long,” lol. You really got me.

Here’s your tldr, realinvaderdesign: you are a moron.

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Let's not insult each other. If I see either you or him doing it again, it'll be a warning.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Chrispy_G » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:12 am

I want to apologize for any rudeness or crassness on my part in this discussion.

I'm excited for the set, and for me it is an upgrade from any version of these movies I've ever seen. I know it isn't for anyone who has had these versions in some form or another for 10 years.....but for me this is still a big deal even if it is a small upgrade. I've wanted a 'cool Godzilla Box Set' since I was a kid and never got it. I almost paid a stupid price for the "Final Box" off of Ebay just to put all of my discs in it and have it for display purposes. For me, it being a cool set that contains a complete era, with the films having a 'consistent' and very relatively speaking "high quality" presentation...and all of the ancillary goodies like the packaging and bonus disc and artwork. The Showa era being honored with Spine #1000...this thing coming for the 65 year anniversary. Even if hands are tied on the level of the film presentations, the OVERALL presentation seems like it is trying to show the Showa era a lot of respect, and Godzilla in general doesn't get a lot of respect. It frankly gives me the warm and fuzzies because I wished for something like this when I was a kid, when some of these films weren't even available to upgrade from VHS to DVD.

For me, there was a time in my life where just 'getting them all on DVD' was a dream, "original Japanese versions" had a mythic status in my eyes. I never could have imagined having them all on BLU RAY. I know the "I'll take what I can get" attitude seems like a very "grubbing for whatever scraps the corporate machine throws us" type of attitude....but with Godzilla I've always been a beggar. "Anything, please". I do shill for pretty much all things Godzilla and I can't help it.

Deep down I truly do want more, and would pay twice as much for this set to get something much more comprehensive. Even though it is irksome to have my optimism sort of crapped on because the set isn't something much more than it is, you are all justified in wanting the very best.

I absolutely can understand where everyone is coming from on the other side. Just because I don't really care about the alt-versions doesn't mean you shouldn't. It is a shame that Toho and Criterion couldn't make this something much more spectacular. We had 2 years of hype and you get slightly improved transfers you have all been looking at for a decade in fancy packaging. I can't pretend to be outraged, but you guys being let down is understandable.

I think all of our 'I approve this set and here is why' vs the 'I disapprove this set and here is why' arguments have been clearly hashed out. I won't try to antagonize it any more or put down anyone who wants no part of this thing, but I won't hide my own enthusiasm.

So again I am sorry for any friction up this point. I don't want this to just be all about making jabs and "throwing shade" around at every turn.

Even if it never happens, I'll keep fingers crossed for something spectacular down the road that will please every one.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby realinvaderdesign » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:24 am

I think its time to close the thread, I think everything that needs to be said has been said about the set

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby goji1986 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:36 am

realinvaderdesign wrote:I think its time to close the thread, I think everything that needs to be said has been said about the set

It hasn’t even come out yet. There will be plenty more discussion once that happens.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Great Hierophant » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:41 am

Tamura wrote:I would chalk up the brown tint and milky contrast in Kong’s case to the taste choice of Hayato Komori, who did the color on all the Hi-Visions, the 4K ‘54 and probably the 4K Kong. There is an interview where he stated that the West seems to prefer higher contrast, which is just a super weird thing to say.


I saw a few snippets of the 4K '54 and was struck by how blown out everything looked when compared to the Criterion 2011. I don't think Ishiro Honda was going for a Sin City look, but that is the impression I received from Komori's efforts, and now, words.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:24 am

Great Hierophant wrote:
Tamura wrote:I would chalk up the brown tint and milky contrast in Kong’s case to the taste choice of Hayato Komori, who did the color on all the Hi-Visions, the 4K ‘54 and probably the 4K Kong. There is an interview where he stated that the West seems to prefer higher contrast, which is just a super weird thing to say.


I saw a few snippets of the 4K '54 and was struck by how blown out everything looked when compared to the Criterion 2011. I don't think Ishiro Honda was going for a Sin City look, but that is the impression I received from Komori's efforts, and now, words.

Love to live in a country that's been producing striking black ink paintings for like 700 years and then try to claim that a preference for anything but dull middling colors is a strange and foreign idea

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "blown out" exactly -- I've only seen a few still from the transfer -- but IIRC at least some of the difference in the case of '54 is due to the elements used having more detail in the shadows. Criterion's transfer was apparently from a positive struck directly from the negative, though, so I could be wrong, unless Toho rediscovered the negative, which Criterion's notes said "no longer exists."
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Lecontinentperdu » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:26 am

" I don't think Ishiro Honda was going for a Sin City look, but that is the impression I received from Komori's efforts, and now, words"

That's a freakin' freaky thing to say!!! ;)

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby goji89 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:51 am

realinvaderdesign wrote:I think its time to close the thread, I think everything that needs to be said has been said about the set


112 pages in.......one would think that but......I don't think so. Theres plenty more to say apperantly.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby UltramanGoji » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:38 am

goji89 wrote:
realinvaderdesign wrote:I think its time to close the thread, I think everything that needs to be said has been said about the set


112 pages in.......one would think that but......I don't think so. Theres plenty more to say apperantly.


The skreeonking set isn’t even out yet, of course there’s more to say.

And closing a thread just because “there isn’t more to say” (????) is pretty much the dumbest thing you can do for a forum.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Joseph Goodman » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:59 am

omgitsgodzilla wrote: Criterion's transfer was apparently from a positive struck directly from the negative, though, so I could be wrong, unless Toho rediscovered the negative, which Criterion's notes said "no longer exists."



When the 2014 restoration was begun, that master positive Criterion used was re-examined, and determined to have actually been struck from a dupe negative, not the long-gone camera negative. This was determined by examining the edge of the film, and observing the different edge codes from each generation that had been printed through. The final restoration used two dupe negatives for the bulk of it, with the aforementioned master positive used for any missing frames from those negatives.

http://www.stereosound.co.jp/review/article/2014/12/28/34660.html

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Tamura » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:21 am

I actually agree with him. There isn’t a lot to say about the box (or record, since that’s what it looks like). Some of us have had the majority of the contents of the box for years. The areas where this box could have brought something completely unique to the table - new transfers and presentations of the US dubs - aren’t happening. The transfers being used are very well documented, and have been for years. There isn’t much room for unique observations in November that absolutely nobody can make at this point. I guess next month we can all talk about the long awaited Alex Cox featurette.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:34 am

Joseph Goodman wrote:
omgitsgodzilla wrote: Criterion's transfer was apparently from a positive struck directly from the negative, though, so I could be wrong, unless Toho rediscovered the negative, which Criterion's notes said "no longer exists."



When the 2014 restoration was begun, that master positive Criterion used was re-examined, and determined to have actually been struck from a dupe negative, not the long-gone camera negative. This was determined by examining the edge of the film, and observing the different edge codes from each generation that had been printed through. The final restoration used two dupe negatives for the bulk of it, with the aforementioned master positive used for any missing frames from those negatives.

http://www.stereosound.co.jp/review/article/2014/12/28/34660.html

Interesting! I was going by that leaked image of the last page of the book. At least by the time that version of the page was created, that hadn't been corrected.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Terasawa » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:02 am

So, for clarity:

Criterion G54 = master positive (from dupe negative)
Toho 4K = two dupe negatives + missing frames from ^master positive

Yes?
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby goji89 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:07 am

UltramanGoji wrote:
goji89 wrote:
realinvaderdesign wrote:I think its time to close the thread, I think everything that needs to be said has been said about the set


112 pages in.......one would think that but......I don't think so. Theres plenty more to say apperantly.


The skreeonking set isn’t even out yet, of course there’s more to say.

And closing a thread just because “there isn’t more to say” (????) is pretty much the dumbest thing you can do for a forum.


First of all....breathe and calm the skreeonk down :lol: . Im agreeing that there is more to say and the thread shouldn't be shut down.

The fun will start when it releases..........man it will be a trip in here, can't wait.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby Joseph Goodman » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:48 am

omgitsgodzilla wrote:Interesting! I was going by that leaked image of the last page of the book. At least by the time that version of the page was created, that hadn't been corrected.


That text was just repeated from the previous Criterion G'54.

Terasawa wrote:So, for clarity:
Criterion G54 = master positive (from dupe negative)
Toho 4K = two dupe negatives + missing frames from ^master positive
Yes?


Yes. From the article:
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:04 am

Joseph Goodman wrote:
omgitsgodzilla wrote:Interesting! I was going by that leaked image of the last page of the book. At least by the time that version of the page was created, that hadn't been corrected.


That text was just repeated from the previous Criterion G'54.

I know; that's what I'm saying -- it hadn't been corrected to reflect information discovered since the 2012 disc came out.

I can see why, though; it's a minor point that Criterion probably isn't aware of, and Toho is more concerned with adding "Godzilla in katakana characters" to its roster of trademarks than with anything about the films themselves.
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