Outliers Discussion Thread

Discuss and analyze various feats!
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Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby g2vd » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:22 am

This thread is here to discuss high durability feats or low feats to determine whether or they are Outliers.
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Re: Outliners Discussion Thread

Postby Kaijunator » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:12 am

Don't you mean outliers? Not outliners?
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Re: Outliners Discussion Thread

Postby g2vd » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:21 am

Kaijunator wrote:Don't you mean outliers? Not outliners?

Yes, I meant Outliers.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby DinoMaster » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:10 am

Honestly, I think the word Outlier gets thrown around a whole lot without a good look at context. Let's look at the definition in the context it means to us. Definition pulled from Google.

out·li·er: a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.


All in all, it has to do with where you put a set of feats. This can be really useful and a killer at times, as no two people may have the same definition as what puts a set of feats and what outsets them. This can go for extremely insane feats, and those that are seemingly mundane. Let's show some examples, using everyone's favorite, FWGoji.

The Usual Set considered
Outliers: The Meteor Stunt, Throwing Kumonga
Standard Feats: Impaling Kamacuras, Kaiju Soccer, Throwing feats with Kaizer Ghidorah, etc.


But how much of that is really an outlier? For this respective beast, he does a lot more than most Godzilla have ever done. Lets take a look at it in a different manner per say, based more on feats of strength and durability.

Alternate Set
Feats: Meteor Impact, Kumonga throw, Kaizer Ghidorah throws, eradicating Kaizer Ghidorah, Blasting Zilla into oblivion
Outliers: Beginnig battle with Atragon, Kaiju Soccer, debateablly Kamacuras impalement scene.


And here we see something occuring. They're plenty of scenes in which there are scenes in which feats would normally be considered high feat outliers, more than the lower feat ones. Therefore, his weaker scene fights could be considered low feat outliers, things that are remarkably weak than what we see on screen. I think that in a fair judgement of what is or is not an outlier, you must look at all feats, and determine whether it's a normal strength display, a high end, or a low end display. Just my two cents before this thread blows up into specifics.

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby ZillaJr-KaijuKing » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:42 am

DinoMaster wrote:Honestly, I think the word Outlier gets thrown around a whole lot without a good look at context. Let's look at the definition in the context it means to us. Definition pulled from Google.

out·li·er: a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.


All in all, it has to do with where you put a set of feats. This can be really useful and a killer at times, as no two people may have the same definition as what puts a set of feats and what outsets them. This can go for extremely insane feats, and those that are seemingly mundane. Let's show some examples, using everyone's favorite, FWGoji.

The Usual Set considered
Outliers: The Meteor Stunt, Throwing Kumonga
Standard Feats: Impaling Kamacuras, Kaiju Soccer, Throwing feats with Kaizer Ghidorah, etc.


But how much of that is really an outlier? For this respective beast, he does a lot more than most Godzilla have ever done. Lets take a look at it in a different manner per say, based more on feats of strength and durability.

Alternate Set
Feats: Meteor Impact, Kumonga throw, Kaizer Ghidorah throws, eradicating Kaizer Ghidorah, Blasting Zilla into oblivion
Outliers: Beginnig battle with Atragon, Kaiju Soccer, debateablly Kamacuras impalement scene.


And here we see something occuring. They're plenty of scenes in which there are scenes in which feats would normally be considered high feat outliers, more than the lower feat ones. Therefore, his weaker scene fights could be considered low feat outliers, things that are remarkably weak than what we see on screen. I think that in a fair judgement of what is or is not an outlier, you must look at all feats, and determine whether it's a normal strength display, a high end, or a low end display. Just my two cents before this thread blows up into specifics.

I've been thinking this same thing. In the Calculating the Energy of a Volcanic Eruption thread that started this, two showings for Zilla Jr. were brought up that could be considered outliers.
  • Getting KOed by normal missiles
  • Surviving an island-busting explosion
When is it fair to take them into account in a fantasy match, and can they be ignored entirely? Considering that he repeatedly tanks worse than normal missiles in later episodes, that first one is either a low showing or a sign that he gets stronger as the series progresses. As for the second feat, is it an outlier, or is it a case of "kaiju can't be hurt by anything other than other kaiju or sci-fi weapons" syndrome that was prominent in Godzilla 2014?
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Tomzilla » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:28 pm

I wanted to share my thoughts on this matter in ZillaJr~KaijuKing's Volcanic Eruption thread, but I thought this thread would be more relevant.

Outliers are a rarity in my opinion. Most of the time I think people invoke outliers because it suits their argument/agenda*. I think outliers need to be proven definitively beyond reasonable doubt, otherwise they're contestable. Of course, that's how I conduct my analyses in these discussions. Others conduct theirs in similar fashions. There are rules to abide by when it comes to discsusing Fantasy Matches, like how the topics are designed and how the members are expected to treat one another. But when it comes to determining what is an acceptable feat, there are no rules -- only guidelines.

So here's how I do it:

I'll use Legendary Godzilla as an example. In GODZILLA (2014), Godzilla was hit by a nuclear bomb. It didn't kill him. It's also directly stated in the narrative that all those other nuclear bomb tests in the Pacific weren't tests, but attempts to kill him. So this Godzilla, at the very least, survived a nuclear explosion at ground zero, making this a high-end durability feat.

Later on, Godzilla was repeatedly injured by the MUTOs, giant radioactive eating parasites. They were uing their claws to penetrate his extremely dense skin. The MUTOs succeeded where the nuclear bombs failed. Since the MUTOs' physical strikes never obliterated cities, or came anywhere near to the power output of a nuclear bomb, we can rule out Godzilla's high-end durability feat, right? Yes, feel free to do that at your leisure. But I won't for the following reasons:

Godzilla and the MUTOs are fictional monsters inhabiting a fictional universe governed by a fictional law of physics. It's true we can use our sciences to enhance our understandings of how awesome and epic these characters are, but our sciences cannot definitively be used to rule out their greatest feats. Godzilla and the MUTOs defy everything we know about physics and nature. Their mere existence is incomprehensible to us. We all agree that in order to have these discussions in the first place, we must suspend our disbelief, and that comes with a price. If you accept these terms but later condemn a character or a character's feat because it doesn't make sense, why the double-standard? If you have no trouble accepting characters that don't make any sense to begin with, then something like an impossible character surviving a nuclear bomb, or an impossible character possessing physical attacks designed to wound said nuclear bomb surviving character, isn't that hard to swallow.

Which is why I have a simpler method when it comes to dealiing with these discussions.

Did the MUTOs' attacks ever fail to consistently damage anything quantifiable, like a car or a building? If so, then I'll ignore Godzilla's high-end durability feat, because Godzilla's own universe contradicts it. Was Godzilla ever wounded by anything else, like conventional weapons? If he was, then same answer. If not, then it's a vallid feat**.


This brings me to why I think high-end feats are absolutely vital to these discussions. Quickly think about all the low-end feats most characters have. Heisei Godzilla's skin was pierced by a grenade; Showa Gamera was wounded by a shotgun. Y'know what all low-end feats have in common? They're all equally made of suck. If we relied only on low-end feats, these discussions would more often than not end in a draw. Now there are many good reasons why low-end feats are dismissed, and it's because they're consistently contradicted. High-end feats, however, aren't always consistently contradicted or rebuked. They're just rarely repeated, which is the main difference, and why an argument can be made that the high-end feat, once used, probably won't be used again***.

What about mid-level feats? This is where we start seeing key distinctions in a character, which aids us in determining how they measure up. But even then most mid-level feats are comparable to others. They're also very subjective. Some people think Anguirus (Showa) falling from a great height and hitting the ground so hard it caused a kaiju-sized impact crater is an average sign of durability. I think it's a very impressive durability feat, high-end even.

That's why high-end feats are essential. Without them, these discussions would be boring, indistinguishable from the rest. High-end feats give us the ammunition we need to make compelling arguments and determine who would most likely win.



* Let's not kid ourselves, we're discussing fictional characters. Why people have an agenda for or against fictional characters, especially in these discussions, is beyond me.

** This is unfortunately where discussions tend to decline in terms of quality and civility.

*** It's like Fantasy Football. This football player performed amazing feast but was never able to do it again. His stats later declined. Does this mean his incredible feats are now outliers? No, it just means he'll unlikely be able to do it again. It's also why we're better off relying on more 'recent' stats.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Inferno Rodan » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:35 pm

DinoMaster wrote:Outliers: The Meteor Stunt, Throwing Kumonga

These, especially the Kumonga throw, are less outliers than they are invalid due to being patently unquantifiable because they just don't make any damn sense. Same goes for Heisei Gamera's and Gipsy Danger's "reentry" scenes, and HB Godzilla's eye lasers melting concrete. You can't say something is impressive or not when it's incapable of being analyzed in the first place. Kumonga flew away from Godzilla faster than Godzilla was spinning him around, and continued to speed up the farther he traveled. It doesn't matter how strong a character is, that's not how physics works. Gamera and Gipsy Danger got heated up simply by falling from a great height. This stems from a misconception by the writers that simply falling from the edge of space causes things to get heated, as they know happens to meteors and space shuttles. The problem is that those objects aren't simply falling, as Gamera and Gipsy were; they're traveling at thousands of miles per hour. Because terminal velocity is a thing, an object that simply goes up and falls back down under the force of gravity cannot attain the speed required to build up ram pressure to cause significant heating. HB Godzilla's eye lasers melted concrete. The problem here is, well, concrete doesn't melt. It's not a physical property of the material. It's like having a fire melt wood.


Tomzilla wrote:Did the MUTOs' attacks ever fail to consistently damage anything quantifiable, like a car or a building? If so, then I'll ignore Godzilla's high-end durability feat, because Godzilla's own universe contradicts it. Was Godzilla ever wounded by anything else, like conventional weapons? If he was, then same answer. If not, then it's a vallid feat**.

When she was digging out the hole for the nest, the female Muto's claws didn't penetrate the ground as deeply as a nuclear blast, especially one the size of Castle Bravo.

Some people think Anguirus (Showa) falling from a great height and hitting the ground so hard it caused a kaiju-sized impact crater is an average sign of durability. I think it's a very impressive durability feat, high-end even.

>impact crater

wat

That was from the underground Kilaak base collapsing because he freaking landed on top of it. And even if that WAS supposed to be an impact crater, it falls under the "invalid due to being non-analyzable" criteria like the other things I mentioned at the beginning of this post because, again, terminal velocity is a thing. It's impossible for him to hit the ground hard enough to cause a crater that size simply by falling.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby ZillaJr-KaijuKing » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:03 am

Inferno Rodan wrote:These, especially the Kumonga throw, are less outliers than they are invalid due to being patently unquantifiable because they just don't make any damn sense.

I've seen people try to quantify the meteor stunt. I don't know about that one being invalid.

Inferno Rodan wrote:When she was digging out the hole for the nest, the female Muto's claws didn't penetrate the ground as deeply as a nuclear blast, especially one the size of Castle Bravo.

This could easily be explained by fine motor skills.

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Inferno Rodan » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:55 pm

ZillaJr-KaijuKing wrote:I've seen people try to quantify the meteor stunt. I don't know about that one being invalid.

The problem is the damage is inconsistent between shots. Two shots show a crater, every other shot just shows the buildings slightly more damaged than they already were. Which do you use to judge the feat? In order to quantify one, you have to ignore the other, thus giving you a bias. When a data set is self-contradictory, you're supposed to throw it out.

This could easily be explained by fine motor skills.

There is no "fine motor skill" when you're trying to dig a bigass hole. You drive your shovel into the ground as hard as you can.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby ZillaJr-KaijuKing » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:29 am

Inferno Rodan wrote:There is no "fine motor skill" when you're trying to dig a bigass hole. You drive your shovel into the ground as hard as you can.

So the MUTO can't stop her claws and control the depth of the hole she's digging?

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Tomzilla » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:35 pm

Inferno Rodan wrote:These, especially the Kumonga throw, are less outliers than they are invalid due to being patently unquantifiable because they just don't make any damn sense.


You know what is arguably more unquantifiable than the silly Kumonga scene? The kaiju themselves. I'm not a big fan of citing this inconvenient truth, as I think it partially sucks the joy out of these discussions, but it bears rementioning. Now you, like myself, suspend disbelief, and ignore the impossibility of these characters in order to have a (hopefully) good discussion. But the moment we do this, the moment we choose to willingly ignore the impossibility of the kaiju while at the same time declaring some of the things they do just doesn't make any sense, we're objectively making no sense. I try my best not to cherry pick. But you know as well as I do that I don't always succeed.

Which is why I'm sticking to my current fantasy analysis methodology. I declare a scene to be an outlier only if the scene in question doesn't make any sense within the realm of its own nonsensical, impossible universe. In other words, even the scene's own crazy universe didn't think the scene itself made any sense. Our laws of science and understanding takes a backseat to these characters.

You can't say something is impressive or not when it's incapable of being analyzed in the first place.


I don't know about you, but color me impressed whenever an impossible character does something even more impossible. ;)

When she was digging out the hole for the nest, the female Muto's claws didn't penetrate the ground as deeply as a nuclear blast, especially one the size of Castle Bravo.


There are bombs, ones Godzilla could shrug off, that would penetrate the ground just as deeply if not moreso as the Female MUTO's claws. The D-03 missiles from GMK could penetrate the ground deeper than the Female MUTO's claws. And that's not because the D-03 missiles have superior penetrating power, but because the Female MUTO's claws merely have limits to the lengths of her claws.

Take a 3-inch knife and stab the ground. Now take an 8-inch knife and stab the ground with the same amount of force. Finally, take a 15-inch knife and stab the ground. Even with applying the same amount of force, the longest knife will have deeper penetration.

Of course, a nuclear bomb is on greater magnitudes of power. I'm not claiming the MUTOs' claws are more powerful than a nuclear explosion. Basically what I'm claiming is the MUTOs have claws specifically designed to penetrate very durable things, and are better at penetrating said durable things than a nuke. In the realm of science fiction, that's not exactly unheard of.

Now if the MUTOs' claws failed to penetrate the ground in the first place...

>impact crater

wat

That was from the underground Kilaak base collapsing because he freaking landed on top of it. And even if that WAS supposed to be an impact crater, it falls under the "invalid due to being non-analyzable" criteria like the other things I mentioned at the beginning of this post because, again, terminal velocity is a thing. It's impossible for him to hit the ground hard enough to cause a crater that size simply by falling.


Yeah, I concede this one.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Inferno Rodan » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:40 am

ZillaJr-KaijuKing wrote:So the MUTO can't stop her claws and control the depth of the hole she's digging?

Of course she could. But why would she when she's trying to dig a hole that large?


Tomzilla wrote:You know what is arguably more unquantifiable than the silly Kumonga scene? The kaiju themselves. I'm not a big fan of citing this inconvenient truth, as I think it partially sucks the joy out of these discussions, but it bears rementioning. Now you, like myself, suspend disbelief, and ignore the impossibility of these characters in order to have a (hopefully) good discussion. But the moment we do this, the moment we choose to willingly ignore the impossibility of the kaiju while at the same time declaring some of the things they do just doesn't make any sense, we're objectively making no sense. I try my best not to cherry pick. But you know as well as I do that I don't always succeed.

Which is why I'm sticking to my current fantasy analysis methodology. I declare a scene to be an outlier only if the scene in question doesn't make any sense within the realm of its own nonsensical, impossible universe. In other words, even the scene's own crazy universe didn't think the scene itself made any sense. Our laws of science and understanding takes a backseat to these characters.

Of course the kaiju themselves are impossible. Ignoring that fact is necessary to have these discussions at all - how good the discussions are is a different matter entirely. Kaiju are only allowed to ignore the rules insofar as their existence is concerned, as it's an entirely self-contained matter. How they manage to not self-destruct under their own mass, how they produce energy beams, etc have no bearing on what they do in a fight. In short, it doesn't matter. Their feats, which involve them interacting with other things, do not get this pass.

I don't know about you, but color me impressed whenever an impossible character does something even more impossible. ;)

Okay then Tom. How did Kumonga gain speed after Godzilla threw him? How much heat did Gamera and Gipsy Danger experience? How hot were HB Godzilla's lasers in order to melt concrete? You can say something is impressive all you want. Now tell me exactly how impressive it is. You know, that's what convincing arguments are supposed to be built off of: evidence.

There are bombs, ones Godzilla could shrug off, that would penetrate the ground just as deeply if not moreso as the Female MUTO's claws. The D-03 missiles from GMK could penetrate the ground deeper than the Female MUTO's claws. And that's not because the D-03 missiles have superior penetrating power, but because the Female MUTO's claws merely have limits to the lengths of her claws.

Take a 3-inch knife and stab the ground. Now take an 8-inch knife and stab the ground with the same amount of force. Finally, take a 15-inch knife and stab the ground. Even with applying the same amount of force, the longest knife will have deeper penetration.

Of course, a nuclear bomb is on greater magnitudes of power. I'm not claiming the MUTOs' claws are more powerful than a nuclear explosion. Basically what I'm claiming is the MUTOs have claws specifically designed to penetrate very durable things, and are better at penetrating said durable things than a nuke. In the realm of science fiction, that's not exactly unheard of.

Now if the MUTOs' claws failed to penetrate the ground in the first place...

Alright, first of all, no, most Godzillas would not shrug off ground penetrating bombs. G2K is the only Godzilla that's ever been hit by GPB-equivalent weaponry (since the footage used to showcase the FMMs was stock footage from a GPB test), and they blew holes in him. In fact they damaged him worse than anything else in the movie. It's a sad fact that very few kaiju have actually experienced a proper military assault, let alone stood up to one.

Secondly, the D-03 missiles are an extremely poor example to use for this, since they work on a completely different principle to GPBs or Muto claws. The D-03s are drills, while GPBs and Muto claws are closer to rifle bullets.

Thirdly, though this is mostly nitpicking, your knife analogy is incorrect. It takes more force to drive the longer knives completely into the ground due to friction on the blades with the soil.

Fourthly, of course the Mutos claws are more efficient at penetration than a nuke. Nukes aren't about efficiency. The GPB with the deepest penetration capability is the GBU-28, which can penetrate over 100 feet of earth. Castle Bravo, by comparison, made a crater 250 feet deep. Despite its inefficiency, the nuke still has over double the penetrating power of the GPB. Efficiency only counts for so much when faced with such overwhelming raw force.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Tomzilla » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:12 pm

Inferno Rodan wrote:Of course the kaiju themselves are impossible. Ignoring that fact is necessary to have these discussions at all - how good the discussions are is a different matter entirely. Kaiju are only allowed to ignore the rules insofar as their existence is concerned, as it's an entirely self-contained matter. How they manage to not self-destruct under their own mass, how they produce energy beams, etc have no bearing on what they do in a fight. In short, it doesn't matter. Their feats, which involve them interacting with other things, do not get this pass.


I'm mainly responding to what I highlighted in bold.

This is clearly where the heart of our disagreements lie. I've already explained my case, which I will now simplify: If you're going to entertain these discussions, you're better off not cherry-picking what we're giving a pass and what we're not giving a pass, because not only is that self-contradictory, it's disingenuous.

Okay then Tom. How did Kumonga gain speed after Godzilla threw him? How much heat did Gamera and Gipsy Danger experience? How hot were HB Godzilla's lasers in order to melt concrete? You can say something is impressive all you want. Now tell me exactly how impressive it is. You know, that's what convincing arguments are supposed to be built off of: evidence.


First, I don't accept those feats, especially the Kumonga debacle, because it doesn't make any sense in its own wonky universe (our more recent Gamera/Gipsy Danger reentry-terminal velocity discussions helped change my opinion, for what it's worth). I've stated time and time again this is merely my opinion, and I won't hold it against anyone if they accept it or deny it because they have their own personal preferences. Which is what these fantasy discussions are all about.

Second, my failure to explain how a kaiju did this doesn't automatically negate the feat altogether. That would be like asking someone to explain how evolution works and then declaring evolution to be a farce because they couldn't explain it.

Third, I could just as easily ask you how does something like Godzilla exist in the first place without being crushed by its own weight? Personally, I don't know how Godzilla does it. All I know is it's impossible but for the sake of these discussions, I'm giving that a pass. I don't know how exactly Heisei Godzilla curled MechaGodzilla because everything about that scene doesn't make any sense, but I accept it nonetheless. I don't know how electricity makes King Kong stronger, I don't know how SpaceGodzilla creates his shield, I don't know how Fire Rodan can willingly meltdown, I don't know how a heat ray can hit a mountain and cause a gigantic explosion, etc...

How does King Ghidorah's biology works? Is he some kind of glorified, three-headed Tardigrade?! :lol:

If you can accept the impossibility of a kaiju without batting an eyelash, accepting an impossible character doing an impossible feat shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Now does said impossible feat work within the context of its imaginary universe? That's why I don't accept the Kumonga scene, because it's inconsistent and is never replicated again.

Alright, first of all, no, most Godzillas would not shrug off ground penetrating bombs. G2K is the only Godzilla that's ever been hit by GPB-equivalent weaponry (since the footage used to showcase the FMMs was stock footage from a GPB test), and they blew holes in him. In fact they damaged him worse than anything else in the movie. It's a sad fact that very few kaiju have actually experienced a proper military assault, let alone stood up to one.


Well hopefully in future installments we'll see how kaiju react to a more proper military assault.

And I'd say most Godzillas could shrug off GPBs based on how they've shrugged off getting hit by comparative attacks. How would you compare SpaceGodzilla's Corona Beam to a GPB?

Secondly, the D-03 missiles are an extremely poor example to use for this, since they work on a completely different principle to GPBs or Muto claws. The D-03s are drills, while GPBs and Muto claws are closer to rifle bullets.


Fair enough.

Thirdly, though this is mostly nitpicking, your knife analogy is incorrect. It takes more force to drive the longer knives completely into the ground due to friction on the blades with the soil.


Conceded.

Fourthly, of course the Mutos claws are more efficient at penetration than a nuke. Nukes aren't about efficiency. The GPB with the deepest penetration capability is the GBU-28, which can penetrate over 100 feet of earth. Castle Bravo, by comparison, made a crater 250 feet deep. Despite its inefficiency, the nuke still has over double the penetrating power of the GPB. Efficiency only counts for so much when faced with such overwhelming raw force.


So if you think MUTO claws are more efficient at penetration than a nuke, why the disagreement? It's very reminiscent of MechaGodzilla's Shock Anchors cutting through Heisei Godzilla's flesh like butter. Yet something like, say, the Plasma Grenade, which has a great deal more overwhelming raw force than the Shock Anchors, failed to inflict similar levels of damage. The Plasma Grenade is more powerful but the Shock Anchors have better penetration, which is why I accept both feats.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Inferno Rodan » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:11 pm

Tomzilla wrote:I'm mainly responding to what I highlighted in bold.

This is clearly where the heart of our disagreements lie. I've already explained my case, which I will now simplify: If you're going to entertain these discussions, you're better off not cherry-picking what we're giving a pass and what we're not giving a pass, because not only is that self-contradictory, it's disingenuous.

Not really. It's basically the root of why Bug Bunny and the like are banned from FMs. Except in those cases the characters are banned altogether because everything they do revolves around such reality-breaking feats.

First, I don't accept those feats, especially the Kumonga debacle, because it doesn't make any sense in its own wonky universe (our more recent Gamera/Gipsy Danger reentry-terminal velocity discussions helped change my opinion, for what it's worth). I've stated time and time again this is merely my opinion, and I won't hold it against anyone if they accept it or deny it because they have their own personal preferences. Which is what these fantasy discussions are all about.

Second, my failure to explain how a kaiju did this doesn't automatically negate the feat altogether. That would be like asking someone to explain how evolution works and then declaring evolution to be a farce because they couldn't explain it.

Third, I could just as easily ask you how does something like Godzilla exist in the first place without being crushed by its own weight? Personally, I don't know how Godzilla does it. All I know is it's impossible but for the sake of these discussions, I'm giving that a pass. I don't know how exactly Heisei Godzilla curled MechaGodzilla because everything about that scene doesn't make any sense, but I accept it nonetheless. I don't know how electricity makes King Kong stronger, I don't know how SpaceGodzilla creates his shield, I don't know how Fire Rodan can willingly meltdown, I don't know how a heat ray can hit a mountain and cause a gigantic explosion, etc...

How does King Ghidorah's biology works? Is he some kind of glorified, three-headed Tardigrade?! :lol:

If you can accept the impossibility of a kaiju without batting an eyelash, accepting an impossible character doing an impossible feat shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Now does said impossible feat work within the context of its imaginary universe? That's why I don't accept the Kumonga scene, because it's inconsistent and is never replicated again.

Uh. I'm not sure if there's a misunderstanding here or what, but everything you said here is more agreeing with me than disagreeing. At best you're disputing the semantics rather than the idea itself.

I already said the hows of kaiju don't matter, and are thus irrelevant, to FM discussions.

Example: Kiryu's Absolute Zero Cannon. Nothing about how it works makes sense. An energy weapon that makes things colder completely goes against physics in the first place (since cold is the absence of energy, shooting energy at something will never make it colder), let alone what powers it. But that doesn't matter. It could run off of farts and pixie dust for all I care, the fact of the matter is it functions. What does matter is what happens when it hits things.

I'm not dismissing every impossible feat that kaiju do. If I did that I wouldn't be able to post here, because there would be literally nothing to say since everything they do is impossible on some level. I only dismiss things that, again, cannot be analyzed because they don't make sense on any level. This is different from an outlier, which is a feat that is dismissed because it's contradicted by other feats.

Well hopefully in future installments we'll see how kaiju react to a more proper military assault.

God I hope so. That's been my #1 wish for kaiju movies for a looooong time now.

And I'd say most Godzillas could shrug off GPBs based on how they've shrugged off getting hit by comparative attacks. How would you compare SpaceGodzilla's Corona Beam to a GPB?

In terms of explosive power? Maybe comparable to a 500-lb bomb. In terms of penetration capability, it MIGHT be comparable to some of the lower-penetration varieties, but certainly nowhere close to what the likes of the GBU-28 can achieve. Heat output is a negligible factor, since the beam doesn't really stay in contact long enough for significant heating to occur.

I'll just copypasta a list of vids from an old thread for reference:
Not really anything a standard 500-lb bomb can't do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RhHF4fv00s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eufQxhlUEDU

And just for funsies, here's some 1000-pounders:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWZCStUeKnU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilo2wxk_KMA

And 2000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrpXOIVCcAs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fc8bgf1pGk
(Somewhat misleading title on that 2nd one. It's 3 bombs totaling 6000 lbs)

I THINK this one is 2000 lbs too, but I'm not sure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuniKsBxZ10

Y'know what? Screw it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E921BZklB_Q


To put it in perspective, 2000-lb bomb can put a crater in the ground 50 feet wide by 36 feet deep. Very, very few kaiju weapons have displayed that level of explosive power. That's just on a standard non-penetration bomb, of course. You wouldn't really get a crater like that from something that blows up like 50 feet beneath the surface like GPBs are designed to do.

So if you think MUTO claws are more efficient at penetration than a nuke, why the disagreement? It's very reminiscent of MechaGodzilla's Shock Anchors cutting through Heisei Godzilla's flesh like butter. Yet something like, say, the Plasma Grenade, which has a great deal more overwhelming raw force than the Shock Anchors, failed to inflict similar levels of damage. The Plasma Grenade is more powerful but the Shock Anchors have better penetration, which is why I accept both feats.

Just because something is more efficient at an action, that doesn't mean it does said action better than something else. Did you not read past the first sentence of what you quoted there? The GPB efficiently penetrates 100 feet of earth. Castle Bravo inefficiently penetrated 250 feet of earth. Therefore, Castle Bravo has superior penetration capability to the GPB.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby ZillaJr-KaijuKing » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:26 am

I'm seeing more and more people accept as fact that Heisei Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla are Solar System Level in power and durability because Godzilla cells survived a black hole before being mutated into SpaceGodzilla, and anything that hurts them is automatically Solar System Level because of it. Basically the polar opposite of what I see here. I'm not even sure how to respond to these comments. I brought up that Godzilla's meltdown would have been planet level at most but it was written off with the "area of effect =/= power" excuse even after I pointed out that it was an uncontrolled explosion as opposed to an attack.

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby g2vd » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:05 am

ZillaJr-KaijuKing wrote:I'm seeing more and more people accept as fact that Heisei Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla are Solar System Level in power and durability because Godzilla cells survived a black hole before being mutated into SpaceGodzilla, and anything that hurts them is automatically Solar System Level because of it. Basically the polar opposite of what I see here. I'm not even sure how to respond to these comments. I brought up that Godzilla's meltdown would have been planet level at most but it was written off with the "area of effect =/= power" excuse even after I pointed out that it was an uncontrolled explosion as opposed to an attack.

.........WHAT?!!!!! Solar System?!!!
Godzilla

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby ZillaJr-KaijuKing » Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:48 pm

g2vd wrote:.........WHAT?!!!!! Solar System?!!!

Solar System+, actually. Destoroyah is also being assumed to be Solar System+ "by default." No feats. Godzilla cells surviving a trip through a black hole is enough.

It goes
Supernova < Black hole < SpaceGodzilla ~ Godzilla < Destoroyah ~ Burning Godzilla

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Gerdzerl » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:10 pm

They assumed SpaceGodzilla was Solar System level because of the fact that he survived being inside a black hole and white hole and that he absorbed the energy of an exploding star: http://i.imgur.com/8Vs2r7S.jpg

Godzilla and his fellow kaiju are Multi-City Block level to (maybe) Small Town level (IE: High yield triple digit hundreds of tons of TNT equivalent to Low-yield single digit kilotons of TNT equivalent) at best going by their consistent, non-blatantly outlier feats and there's also nothing to suggest that Toho kaiju can control the area of effect of their attacks, but don't tell Gallavant that. We're just a bunch of silly "downplayers". :P

Someone here needs to join VS Battles (I'm on there but I don't want to inadvertently start a fight and get myself banned) and fix all the kaiju profiles to be more accurate, but I doubt anyone there in the kaiju department is going to listen to reason, unfortunately.

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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby g2vd » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:54 pm

ZillaJr-KaijuKing wrote:
g2vd wrote:.........WHAT?!!!!! Solar System?!!!

Solar System+, actually. Destoroyah is also being assumed to be Solar System+ "by default." No feats. Godzilla cells surviving a trip through a black hole is enough.

It goes
Supernova < Black hole < SpaceGodzilla ~ Godzilla < Destoroyah ~ Burning Godzilla

.....Inferno Rodan is going to have a heart attack..this is even worse than when Godzelda said SpaceGodzilla's Beams were more powerful than a Nuke point for point. or when he said Godzilla caused that Earthquake by slamming Battra into the Mantle, I can already see MM laughing while pulling his hair out.

You realise the entire existence of Kaiju is pretty fantastical right? Are we going to count Godzilla doing a Tail Side as prove he is omnipotent I mean what?!! They are NO where near as durable as a freaking Black Hole.
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Re: Outliers Discussion Thread

Postby Gerdzerl » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:02 pm

g2vd wrote:
ZillaJr-KaijuKing wrote:
g2vd wrote:.........WHAT?!!!!! Solar System?!!!

Solar System+, actually. Destoroyah is also being assumed to be Solar System+ "by default." No feats. Godzilla cells surviving a trip through a black hole is enough.

It goes
Supernova < Black hole < SpaceGodzilla ~ Godzilla < Destoroyah ~ Burning Godzilla

.....Inferno Rodan is going to have a heart attack..this is even worse than when Godzelda said SpaceGodzilla's Beams were more powerful than a Nuke point for point. or when he said Godzilla caused that Earthquake by slamming Battra into the Mantle, I can already see MM laughing while pulling his hair out.

You realise the entire existence of Kaiju is pretty fantastical right? Are we going to count Godzilla doing a Tail Side as prove he is omnipotent I mean what?!! They are NO where near as durable as a freaking Black Hole.


Oh lawdy, when IR sees those pages....

Image

Believe me, I'd kill for Heisei Godzilla (or hell, any Godzilla incarnation in general) to be legitimately Planet Level or Solar System Level but he just isn't. Someone needs to set VS Battles straight, because I can guarantee you anyone in their right mind who's actually paid attention to what the character has consistently displayed in terms of feats would never place any incarnation of Godzilla any higher than low end Town Level.


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