The Case Against MOGUERA: Complete

[three]

Aye, in the spirit of some of the other analysis threads, I've decided to make my own. In this case though, I will compare MG2 and MOGUERA, its replacement, as well as attempt to demonstrate a clear weakness on the part of MOGUERA. Thus, the purpose is two fold: first, to show that MOGUERA is a weaker kaiju than the fandom has come to believe, and to demonstrate superiority on the part of Mechagodzilla 2. I will award each kaiju a point based on its performance in each of the following categories: Physical Durability, Physical Damage Output, Beam-Based Durability, Mobility, Beam Weapons, and Special Abilities.

The first issue that I would like to take up is the physical durability of each Mecha. The First on the chopping block is MOGUERA, though both Mechas suffer a deficiency in this department.

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You will note that the impact occurs near the rear of MOGUERA, and yet is felt all the way up and into the cockpit. The robot is also rendered unable to fly straight, and is in dire need of repairs following the collision. One might be tempted to suggest that because both creatures were flying at speeds necessary to traverse the cosmos, the impact was more severe, however: Space Godzilla suffers no visible damage, and its crystals are not made of an unyielding material (shown later). In addition, MOGUERA has a glaring physical weakness: the chest beam. This is displayed when MOGUERA destroys the shoulder crystals (more on that later), drawing the ire of Space Godzilla.

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Mechagodzilla 2 (how I choose to refer to the Mecha from the 1993 film) suffers damage from a collision as well, from Godzilla ramming it to the ground (pictured below, behind spoilers).

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So, it's easy to decide that neither should receive a point for physical durability, right? Wrong. See below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwwZEBharJ8

But, the damage doesn't end there for Mechagodzilla 2. It continues...

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That's right; after being thrown through the air and breaking its fall with its own heavy metal body, Mechagodzilla 2 is stomped on, and beaten by the tail of Godzilla. Its response?

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To get up, ram Godzilla, and take him down, returning to a fully upright position. Thus, the point for physical durability goes to Mechagodzilla 2.

SCORE: MG2: 1 MOGUERA: 0

Next, the issue of the PDO, or Physical Damage Output. This refers to all forms of solid missiles (spiral grenades, drills, G-Crusher weapons, etc.).

First, MOGUERA:

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Impressively, MOGUERA is able to cause severe physical damage with its standard drill weapons. Given that much, it's almost a runaway victory, though there is a note to be made for the Spiral Grenades...

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As one would note from the above images, the spiral grenades make direct contact with Space Godzilla, and later in the fight no visible damage is present on the areas that they hit --- yet the damage from the drill attack earlier remains...

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Yet, the spiral grenades are able to destroy the shoulder crystals. So what gives? The biggest contributing factor is that the crystals aren't exactly all that powerful. Though they can survive impacts with the body of MOGUERA, forceful explosions and penetrating weaopnry can destroy them. Space Godzilla also uses them as projectile weapons, which are shattered upon impact with the ground, and Godzilla during their battle. The conclusion can be drawn that while the crystals are powerful against beams, or in large clusters (such as Space Godzilla's crystal flying form) they are weaker on their own, and are in fact major points of weakness, such as the tower, or the shoulder crystals themselves.
Despite this, MOGUERA is still able to drill through Space Godzilla's hide, and does in fact destroy the crystals. Therefore, even against the G-Crusher, and high-speed ramming ability of Mechagodzilla 2, MOGUERA gets the point for physical damage output.

SCORE: MG2: 1 MOGUERA: 1

Next, lets talk beam resistance. There is a great level of debate on this issue regarding the Corona beam. Below is an image of said beam, proving that it is in fact designed to pierce, unlike a regular beam:

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The damage wrought on MOGUERA is plain as day to see:

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This demonstration however does not provide evidence that the beam is made of anything different from Godzilla's beam, but shows its precision and cutting ability. One might note that Mechagodzilla 2 is designed with a super heat shield, which can absorb beams fired at the kaiju. Is the beam physical in nature? What is happening however is that Space Godzilla's Corona beam has the highest concentration of heat at the front, forming a "spear tip", hence the white coloration. As many know: white is color associated with the highest temperature possible; thus, Space Godzilla's beam forces most of the heat energy to the front, creating a carving beam similar to that of G2K, but with heat as the source of its shredding power, and not force.
The Corona beam also shares many similarities to Godzilla's Red Spiral Atomic Ray. First, watch this video, which I will refer to in explaining the similarities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFRw5e8fb2w

You're back. Good. Note several features of the RSAR: the red electricity that jumps about Godzilla's back as he charges the beam. The coloration of the beam itself. The swirling, chaotic energy that trails and follows the beam, and finally its insane heat output (which coincides with Godzilla's own temperature increase). Now, take a peek at these images of Space Godzilla firing the beam:

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Note that in the above image and gif: Space Godzilla's Corona Beam is similar in that it maintains a wavy, almost chaotic motion, similar to the beam that surrounds the RSAR. Note the similarities in that, Space Godzilla's charge produces a red lightening that emanates from its shoulder crystals, back plates, and occasionally its crown horn. One can reasonably conclude that Space Godzilla is in fact firing off a very focused and similar beam to that of the RSAR, a beam which Mechagodzilla 2 took not one, not two, but three direct shots from before it gave in. Thus, the beam resistance is greater in MG2.

SCORE: MG2: 2 MOGUERA: 1

Next, the topic will be the mobility of the Mechas in question. This victory will be determined on the basis of how efficiently the Mecha can move, how frequently the Mecha is able to utilize the mobility in the heat of battle, and how it couples with the attack pattern of the Mecha.

In the case of MOGUERA, the Mecha has treads attached to its feet allowing for fast movement around a battlefield, which allows it to quickly maneuver over to a potential target and make use of its drill (if need be). However, MOGUERA's greatest assets are its spiral grenades, its eye cannons, the chest beam, and various other beams that fire from its arms. The use of its ability to tread over any terrain is limited in this regard, as it remains land-based when firing its weapons (shown when MOGUERA lands to fire the spiral grenades) and stands completely still when firing at a target (though this is no fault of its design, it simply would not do any good to roll around while targeting an enemy and firing a multitude of weapons).

Mechagodzilla 2 also has a limited amount of mobility in its base form. Though it can fly and ram its opponent, as well as absorb any beam attacks, it is still often very still when targeting, and lacks any form of traction on the ground even remotely similar to what MOGUERA is equipped with. In relatively simple terms, until Mechagodzilla upgrades its form, it is rendered very slow and clunky in terms of mobility. Thus, MOGUERA gets the point for its moves.

SCORE: MG2: 2 MOGUERA: 2

Now, the second to last topic: the beam-based weaponry. While MOGUERA had taken the victory in PDO, this comparison is less of a runaway victory and a much closer contest.

Once again, MOGUERA is up first. It brings to the table plasma cannons, a chest beam, and beams fired from its arms.

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Notable above, the beams pack an explosive wallop, but don't necessarily do a great deal of damage to the target. This is especially notable in the oft-touted scene in which MOGUERA delivers a glancing blow to Godzilla, causing him to fall, yet not even the combined force of every one of its beams could knock Space Godzilla off its feet. Coincidence? Not quite. Godzilla was hit while fighting Space Godzilla by a perceived ally. When a blow is dealt to an opponent who is not aware of its impending connection, we call this a cheap shot: a blow that is more likely to cause damage because our guard was let down. Though the term has negative connotations, MOGUERA was not targeting Godzilla per say, but still caught him off guard, thus flooring him (temporarily). The fact that even the force of every beam fired at once couldn't knock over a weakened target should speak volumes about that particular incident, which would make a strong case that it was in fact an outlier at best, and merely the product of Godzilla dropping his guard at worst.

Lets compare this to Mechagodzilla's beam. There are several weapons that warrant mention in this discussion: of special note are the paralyzer missiles, which can incapacitate a kaiju upon impact, the ability to fire back a beam comprised of heat absorbed by the heat shield, and the megabuster cannon located in the mouth. The beams are strong enough to level Rodan, who not only absorbed but was empowered later by beams fired from Godzilla himself. In addition, the refired beam located in the center of MG2's body was able to blast a hole into Rodan.

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Lets just say things did not go well for Rodan on that day. Now, while Godzilla can absorb the hits from some of these blasts, their power against organic beings was clearly demonstrated, unlike MOGUERA's. This means that while MOGUERA's beams are explosive, and can even force kaiju such as Godzilla to the ground (when not paying attention), they are not exactly all powerful, and perhaps many have placed too great an emphasis on their power, especially when Mechagodzilla has demonstrated, conclusively, that it can not only match that level of power, but expand upon it, causing significant (grievous) injury to its opponents. Thus, the point goes to Mechagodzilla.

SCORE: MG2: 3 MOGUERA: 2

And now, the conclusion. The special abilities and/or upgrades portion of the discussion.

One last time, MOGUERA is up to bat first. MOGUERA has a unique ability to separate into two different components: a flying portion, able to fire off lasers of its own, and a ground-based vehicle equipped with drills which can also fire a trio of laser cannons. The ability was useful to assist Godzilla in combat against Space Godzilla, and instrumental in destroying its crystal fortress, but unlikely to be of any major use in a one on one fight with another powerful kaiju.

Mechagodzilla's special ability however is far and away a more powerful one: to upgrade itself into Super Mechagodzilla by joining with Garuda. In this form, Mechagodzilla gains increased mobility by hovering around the battlefield, and also provides a boost in sheer firepower, thus increasing Mechagodzilla's already incredible damage output to unbelievable levels. Mechagodzilla was later shown to be able to lock Godzilla's RSA (shown below). The explosion generated by the power of the two beams combined forced MG2 to stumble backward, marking the beginning of the end of the Mecha and of human efforts to defeat Godzilla with a cyber clone.

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As a result, the unique abilities category favors Mechagodzilla, and thus the metal dragon gets the final point in the comparison.

FINAL TALLY: MG2: 4 MOGUERA: 2

In conclusion, I would like to thank you for taking the time to read and perhaps drop your thoughts on my research and efforts below. It has been a pleasure to take a more comprehensive look at the kaiju I grew up enjoying so much, and to compare them with deep analysis of their abilities and traits. If you disagree, please remain civil and explain why you feel there is a fault present in my work. I will be happy to try to explain it, or even to concede that you may have found a point I cannot answer. Overall, the thread will hopefully foster some new angles and discussion on what once may have been a closed case to some. Enjoy.

[Gojira tai Mosura]

I will break your rules.
Thus far, I really like the idea of this thread. Comparing MG2 to M.O.G.U.E.R.A14 to really show off how powerful they are in comparison (and also clearing up the mystery of "just how powerful IS M.O.G.U.E.R.A14?") is something we've definitely needed.

[three]

ok; feel free to discuss and post. and thank you, GTM for the support.

[EmperorGhidorah]

The only thing I want to refute right now is MG's weapons. In particular, the plasma grenade.

MG's First Fight
-first plasma grenade strikes Godzilla, actually damages him, and knocks him over
- the rest of the shots lift and fling Heisei Godzilla. The last shot launches Godzilla a good 100 or so meters. Yet they don't damage Heisei Godzilla at all.

MG's Second Fight
- a point blank shot from the plasma grenade can barely push a 16,000 toned Rodan off of him. This is the same freakin attack just got done lifting and launching a 60,000 toned Heisei Godzilla a good 100 meters. Does no damage to Rodan
- the second shot does better, flinging Rodan into a building with enough force to cause the top half of said skyscraper to crumble. Does no damage to Rodan.
- the final shot flings Rodan only about 200 meters and very slowly I might add. And yet suddenly, Ridan has massive amounts of damage, despite the fact that the PG had failed to even scratch him twice before.


As SMG
- SMG fires a plasma grenade at Heisei G, knocks him over, but deals no damage
- While Heisei Godzilla is on the ground, SMG literally pounds Godzilla with plasma grenades. And Heisei Godzilla isn't moved an inch. Nor is he damaged at all

The Plasma Grenade damages Heisei Godzilla once and fails to do so on every other occasion, despite the fact that some shots were clearly stronger than the one that damaged Godzilla. The shot that damages Fire Rodan is the exact same type of shot that struck him twice before without damaging FR at all. And on top of that, it lifts and flings Heisei Godzilla around and can barely move the much lighter Fire Rodan. That is some ridiculous inconsistency and, as such, the Plasma Grenade is not really a good attack to use when measuring the potency of MG's arsenal.

[three]

^ hm.. a good point. the damage it causes is inconsistent. i will review this and see what i can offer for you sometime in the next few hours. for now though i am going to let the thread breathe and gather support/criticism.

[Gojira tai Mosura]

Maybe the Plasma Grenade gets stronger the more energy it has? So the more MechaGodzilla 2 used it, the weaker it got as it gradually ran out of energy?

[Spuro]

The Plasma Grenade damages Heisei Godzilla once and fails to do so on every other occasion, despite the fact that some shots were clearly stronger than the one that damaged Godzilla.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. The damage to the suit after the plasma grenade's first shot was a simple effects error, nothing more.

Spacegodzilla's beam has a similar problem. In one scene, the pyrotechnics blow a chunk off the suit's shoulder.

[EmperorGhidorah]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. The damage to the suit after the plasma grenade's first shot was a simple effects error, nothing more.

And so it failing to fling Heisei Godzilla around during the second fight despite having flung him around early should also be treated as an FX error?

Or it barely being able to push Fire Rodan around?

Spacegodzilla's beam has a similar problem. In one scene, the pyrotechnics blow a chunk off the suit's shoulder.

Except we see SG's corona beam ripping into Godzilla multiple times.

[Spuro]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. The damage to the suit after the plasma grenade's first shot was a simple effects error, nothing more.

And so it failing to fling Heisei Godzilla around during the second fight despite having flung him around early should also be treated as an FX error?

Or it barely being able to push Fire Rodan around?

No. Just referring to the damage done to the suit, not the knock back power it has.

Spacegodzilla's beam has a similar problem. In one scene, the pyrotechnics blow a chunk off the suit's shoulder.

Except we see SG's corona beam ripping into Godzilla multiple times.

Except it didn't. During the Heisei series, when the movies wanted to let us know a monster was injured and bleeding from an attack they were explicit. Fire Rodan got a closeup of his messed up chest, blood spurts from attacks from the laser horn, and Moguera's drill, and Biollante's vines and Mechagodzilla's shock anchors. There's nothing Spacegodzilla's beam did that convinces me it breached Godzilla's hide.

[three]

^ indeed. in fact, as demonstrated in this particular thread, MOGUERA is blown apart from the Corona beam -- but i postulate that this is due to the immense heat that "leads" the "point" of the attack, and not because the attack has piercing power itself.

[EmperorGhidorah]

Except it didn't. During the Heisei series, when the movies wanted to let us know a monster was injured and bleeding from an attack they were explicit. Fire Rodan got a closeup of his messed up chest, blood spurts from attacks from the laser horn, and Moguera's drill, and Biollante's vines and Mechagodzilla's shock anchors. There's nothing Spacegodzilla's beam did that convinces me it breached Godzilla's hide.

Well you'd would be wrong if you believe SG's corona beam didn't pierce Heisei Godzilla's hide.


Here we see damage directly behind Godzilla's left shoulder.



Here we see damage on Godzilla's left shoulder region.

So yes, SG's corona beam did breach Godzilla's hide.

[three]

EG, do you have anything a bit more clear-cut?

[EmperorGhidorah]

EG, do you have anything a bit more clear-cut?

At the moment, no. But are you telling me that you can't see the damage where I specified it was.

[three]

EG, do you have anything a bit more clear-cut?

At the moment, no. But are you telling me that you can't see the damage where I specified it was.

ish. i can't tell if it's damage caused by SG's beams, or if it's a suit malfunction. i know the tail came off in that movie, so you know. if it's consistently behind the left shoulder, i am going to scrutinize it a bit more. i hope you can see where i'm coming from.

[EmperorGhidorah]

EG, do you have anything a bit more clear-cut?

At the moment, no. But are you telling me that you can't see the damage where I specified it was.

ish. i can't tell if it's damage caused by SG's beams, or if it's a suit malfunction. i know the tail came off in that movie, so you know. if it's consistently behind the left shoulder, i am going to scrutinize it a bit more. i hope you can see where i'm coming from.

It's damage caused by the corona beam because we see it appear where the corona beam just strikes.

Case in point:



We see damage present on the back of Godzilla's left shoulder. Which is precisely where the corona beam just struck. It later disappears, which makes perfect sense considering Heisei Godzilla's regen.

If you treat the damage SG's beam creates as a suit malfunction, then you'll have to treat the following as the same thing:
- damage from Biollante's vines
- damage from MG's shock anchors
- damage from the plasma grenade
- damage from Destroyah's Laser Horn

Just to name a few.

[three]

yea, i see it better now. for future reference, there's no need to make completely baseless claims or leaps of logic though. the nonsense about the rest of the fights in which damage is exceedingly clear is completely different from the really shitty quality images you might pull offline (or, if you're like me, that you cook up late at night watching G flicks) which feature a suit that is know to have been in a state of disrepair during the making of a film.

tl;dr: you can't always be assumed to be right.

[EmperorGhidorah]

Completely...completely baseless claims!?

That "nonsense" you're talking about was completely supported by what we are given on screen. If SG's corona beam, which we clearly saw hurt Godzilla on at least two occasions, should be treated as a suit malfunction than there isn't any reason to NOT treat anything else hurting Godzilla as suit malfunctions as well.

And my images aren't THAT bad...

[three]

Completely...completely baseless claims!?

That "nonsense" you're talking about was completely supported by what we are given on screen. If SG's corona beam, which we clearly saw hurt Godzilla on at least two occasions, should be treated as a suit malfunction than there isn't any reason to NOT treat anything else hurting Godzilla as suit malfunctions as well.

And my images aren't THAT bad...

lol dude, if you're know that i'm joking about the image quality, you have to take me more lightly about the beam thing. the point is, the suit was in bad shape. before you clarified, it could have very well been a malfunction --- i certainly am not familiar enough with the background of the film, otherwise. this is very different from something deliberately and very clearly done to a suit that was in decent shape, that wasn't breaking down, that was obvious to the viewer.

see the difference? it's not like it matters all that much because, frankly, i'm telling you that you are in fact correct. the beam did damage to him; good work on backing up what you said. but the credibility takes a shot when you say too much, which is the only point i was getting across otherwise.

[Spuro]

It's damage caused by the corona beam because we see it appear where the corona beam just strikes.

Because that's where the pyrotechnics were placed to make all those pretty sparks in the first place. Such pyrotechnics can cause damage to suits, which probably was not the film maker's intent.

- damage from the plasma grenade

I DO treat that as an effects error, lawl.

[Demon Lord Gira]

Erm, KK... you do realize alot of these analysis run off stuff that wasn't the film maker's intent. Like Showa Godzilla taking a tank round to the eye, which I highly doubt was planned, but was kept in because why not. or Showa Godzilal having regen, which definitely wasn't the intent of the film makers back then. We judge what we see, not what the original intent was in the movie. Otherwise, every single Godzilla ever made would be the strongest one, since again, that was the intent of every single toho movie maker. The logic sorta falls flat on its face once you think about it.