Monster Mayhem Round 7: Zarm vs. Giratina93

[Coobzilla03]

Zarm
- Godzilla (Heisei)
- Battra
- Jiger
- Jet Jaguar
- Sanda
- Godzilla Junior
- Anguirus (1968)
- Mothra (2001)
- Mechagodzilla 1975
- Zone FIGHTAH

vs.

Giratina93
- Godzilla (2000)
- King Ghidorah (Heisei)
- King Kong (2005)
- Gigan (2004) V1
- Rodan ('64)
- Gipsy Danger
- Baragon (01)
- Fire Rodan
- Kiryu V2

Arena: Yokohama (GvM:BfE)

Zarm do you wish to send in your aggregates? And which form of Battra do you want to send in? Voting may begin with your answers.

[Zarm]

Do I still have aggregates? If so, I'll keep 'em.in reserve for now- and larva, definitely.

[Coobzilla03]

Yeah, you have 1 use left. Battra is in Larval form.

Voting may begin!

[Demon Lord Gira]

Well, it's the return of Mechagodzilla... and he's packing an arguably nastier offense with those street upturning missiles. G200's handled bunker busters before and they merely annoyed him, but I can see these doing a number to him and still blowing chunks out of my team. At the same time, Heisei Godzilla is a fucking tank of a kaiju that I'm going to be very hard pressed to take down, plus he's quite liberal with his beam usage.

The thing is, however... G2000 doesn't take kindly to being fired at. Once a beam or missile strikes him, he's going to return fire, and if he sweeps the beam... Sanda, Jiger, Jr, and Mothra are all very likely to die. Zone Fighter, who wasn't enjoying King Ghidorah's bolts, sure as hell ain't enjoying that beam, and MG75, like MG74 in the prior match is probably going to get chunks blown out of him.Jet Jaguar's going to be hurting, and Battra Larvae will definitely survive, but not without some scratches.

Now, if MG 75 uses its AoA, then Gipsy, Gigan, Kong, and Baragon are all going to bite the dust. The Rodans can just sorta fly over the AoA, as can Ghidorah. However, if by some reason neither side uses their team killing options... this is going to erupt into a bloodbath, but one where I have aerial supremacy. Ghidorah and both Rodans are far more dangerous and competent in the air than poor lonely Mothra can, and Zone Fighter can try to help... but he's not going to enjoy life. Baragon can annoy and distract the other side with his digging, I guess, but he's almost definitely dead. Both Kiryu v2 and Gipsy are dangerous up close fighters that, looking at Zarm's team, very few of them will want to engage in because blades and drills.

Heisei Godzilla and MG75 are the biggest thorns in the side for my team, and my team's most likely going to be hurting bad and in tatters before those two go down... but they will. Without the barrier shield to protect him, MG75 has no defense against any of the beams flying his way, and the damage is going to rack up fast, especially since he's a stationary gun deployment with none of the close fighting skills the previous model had. Heisei Godzilla WILL be the last monster standing, but things aren't going to be looking good for him. Heisei Ghidorah alone took NO damage from his atomic breath and was beating him both when under mind control and when out of it, only losing because of a very late nuclear pulse. Fire Rodan, even as just base Rodan, was sweeping Heisei off his feet and manhandling him until Godzilla finally got his hands on the pterosaur's throat. Showa Rodan... he's just a big tanky battering ram that can also drop rocks or pick Heisei up and drop him, I dunno. And G2000... his beam is so much more terrifying than Heisei's normal beam, it's scary.

Voting for Giratina.

[Zarm]

I feel pretty good about this one. Both Zone Fighter and Kiryu have limited-duration participation and a heavy firepower; I'd be comfortable canceling them out (though I'd also be happy to explore alternate scenarios- as while Kiryu has some punch to him, he also can't take a great amount of damage). Zone Fighter, if we're not going to zero-sum-game him with Kiryu, has two fearsome primary weapons, a tranquilizaiton mist (calming, not KOing), a anti-projectile barrier, flight capabilities, and more. Worth checking out.

Heisei and 2000 will keep each other busy the whole fight- I would suggest, with Heisei coming out the eventual victor. And as much as 2000's beam-sweeps are oft-discussed, we don't tend to see him focus off of the opponent that actually hit him; and if we're going to move onto none-traditional move-sets, Heisei could just as easily perform a field-sweep in response to his getting hit that would be the likely end of Kong, Baragon, Gypsy, possibly Gigan, and leave Kiryu hurting.

Meanwhile, Battra is a tough cookie, with a decent arsenal; he can go toe to toe with Heisei Godzilla, and absorb a great amount of punishment. Heck, he's been slammed into the seabed hard enough to crack the Earth's crust (reputedly) and go on fighting, and had his own swim through molten lava. Mechagodzilla has an extremely strong damage potential with his rotating missiles, and will move to the all-out assault when the fighting gets tough. Jiger, Junior, and Mothra have their own ranged weaponry at a lower scale, and while Sanda isn't the most lethal fighter on the field, there's a sufficient numbers advantage for him to join one of the other meleers in tag-teaming an opponent.

It should be noted that, as per the official stats, this MechaGodzilla does indeed still have his shield.

In essence, we both have:
A Godzilla (mine having been declared victor prior)
A glass-canon secondary (Jiger and Kong; mine having been declared a victor before)
A Heisei tank (King Ghidorah and Battra) that can soak damage like no one's business but eventually be defeated by Heisei; I could see these ranked is essentially equal in durability and damage potential
A time-limit walking arsenal (Kiryu and Zone Fighter); again, I'd be happy calling these essentially equal-and-canceling out
A dangerous cyborg from vs. Megalon (Jet Jaguar and Gigan)- I do think Jet Jaguar was showa Gigan's superior; Millennium Gigan has far lower durability but greater offensive distance weaponry. I think JJ could take him at the cost of his own life, but would also be willing to count this as 'mortally damaged Gigan victory'
A non-ray-firing flyer (Mothra and Rodan); Rodan has the durability and melee, but Mothra has the ranged attacks and agility to keep out of his range; I'd eventually give the contest to Mothra for the ability to snipe for the distance, or else leave this a stalemate, chasing each-other endlessly until someone else intervenes
Another glass-canon (Gypsy Danger and Junior); both have damage potential but susceptibility to each-other's arsenal. Junior's demonstrated resilience is going to let him hang in there long enough to at least inflict mortal damage; at best, I'd see him, like JJ, falling after inflicting heavy damage on his foe (if not emerging victorious)
A burrowing scrapper (Baragon and Anguirus); of which Anguirus has demonstrated superior durability
Another heavy-hitter (Fire Rodan and Mechagodzilla); honestly, I could go either way here. I do think the rotating missiles could put Fire Rodan down, but the Uranium beam is also going to mess up MechaG. Count this either way you choose- one victorious, the other injured.

...And that still leaves me a Sanda to play around with to help double-team someone and turn one of those cancel-outs into a 'my guys make it out alive', without even bringing in victors-coming-to-help-out from the matches above. In a one-by-one game, a fairly-evenly-matched team falls in my favor a few more times. And in a mass numbers game, the only proven field-clearer (MechaGodzilla) is on my side, with equal field-clearing potential on both sides if everything was ramped up to maximum. In very many ways, we are equally matche-d but the tipping points keep falling in my favor (leaving me enough potential fighters, even if Fire Rodan is the victor of his bout, to turn the tide).

[Demon Lord Gira]

I feel pretty good about this one. Both Zone Fighter and Kiryu have limited-duration participation and a heavy firepower; I'd be comfortable canceling them out (though I'd also be happy to explore alternate scenarios- as while Kiryu has some punch to him, he also can't take a great amount of damage).

Heisei and 2000 will keep each other busy the whole fight- I would suggest, with Heisei coming out the eventual victor. And as much as 2000's beam-sweeps are oft-discussed, we don't tend to see him focus off of the opponent that actually hit him; and if we're going to move onto none-traditional move-sets, Heisei could just as easily perform a field-sweep in response to his getting hit that would be the likely end of Kong, Baragon, Gypsy, possibly Gigan, and leave Kiryu hurting.

Meanwhile, Battra is a tough cookie, with a decent arsenal; he can go toe to toe with Heisei Godzilla, and absorb a great amount of punishment. Heck, he's been slammed into the seabed hard enough to crack the Earth's crust (reputedly) and go on fighting, and had his own swim through molten lava. Mechagodzilla has an extremely strong damage potential with his rotating missiles, and will move to the all-out assault when the fighting gets tough. Jiger, Junior, and Mothra have their own ranged weaponry at a lower scale, and while Sanda isn't the most lethal fighter on the field, there's a sufficient numbers advantage for him to join one of the other meleers in tag-teaming an opponent.

It should be noted that, as per the official stats, this MechaGodzilla does indeed still have his shield.

I can break it down in more detail tomorrow, but suffice it to say- I think the advantage in numbers and the arsenal on display here are going to be enough for my victory.

1. Kiryu 2.0 doesn't have the limited time weakness. That was something the original Kiryu had along with the AZC, but the updated Kiryu doesn't. It can stay out and fight as long as it wants to.

2. Heisei's beam sweeps... are very rare, due to how short his beam lasts. It tends to not last longer than a second or two, which makes a sweep very unlikely. Contrast with G2000, who can keep his beam up for a much longer period of time... And please note, the entire second half of my post was dedicated to the situation where no beam sweep happens. It CAN, but that's not a guarantee... just like it's not a guaantee that if MG uses his AoA, he'll be using it against everyone and not against just one target, and he's not the most accurate shot in the world when using that...

3. Godzilla and Battra were fighting alongside a faultline, which are already incredibly unstable as is. So Heisei Godzilla triggering a light eruption isn't that impressive. Battra's durable as a larvae, but that feat is sorta weakened...

4. Jiger is made of paper mache, Junior died from being dropped a big distance, something Showa Rodan will be more than happy to replicate, and Mothra... uh, what exactly can 2001 Mothra do besides annoy things and die? And granted, Showa Rodan is also primarily an annoyer, but one that's a hell of a lot more durable and could easily crumple Mothra with a well aimed mid-air ram if need be.

5. The issue is, we NEVER see MG75 use that shield in the movie. there are plenty of times where he could have, but he never did, and the site says it was a feature the first MG used, so we have no idea if the second one even has it. For all intents and purposes, the barrier isn't something MG2 has, and even if it had it, then it never uses it.

[Zarm]

1. Kiryu 2.0 doesn't have the limited time weakness. That was something the original Kiryu had along with the AZC, but the updated Kiryu doesn't. It can stay out and fight as long as it wants to.

I did not realize that. Was it just lying down, disabled, in the middle of the battlefield because it had gotten the crap kicked out of it despite having three allies assisting, then, when Yoshito went to fix him?

2. Heisei's beam sweeps... are very rare, due to how short his beam lasts. It tends to not last longer than a second or two, which makes a sweep very unlikely. Contrast with G2000, who can keep his beam up for a much longer period of time...

Heisei does tend to attack in multiple pulses, yes. However, keep in mind- G2000's beam sweeps are essentially fictional. They're a postulated ability based on the duration of his beam, but not really anything he's ever used. My point here was very much that both Godzillas could unleash a devastating barrage against the assembled ranks- but neither have a proven reason to do so, so asserting the tendency/potential of one to do so as a tactical advantage is, to me, an unmerited claim. Which, you note below, was not your intention; just raising it as a possibility. So noted.

3. Godzilla and Battra were fighting alongside a faultline, which are already incredibly unstable as is. So Heisei Godzilla triggering a light eruption isn't that impressive. Battra's durable as a larvae, but that feat is sorta weakened...

Mayhaps so. But the subsequent swim in lava and re-emergence unscathed is still fairly notable.

4. Jiger is made of paper mache, Junior died from being dropped a big distance, something Showa Rodan will be more than happy to replicate, and Mothra... uh, what exactly can 2001 Mothra do besides annoy things and die? And granted, Showa Rodan is also primarily an annoyer, but one that's a hell of a lot more durable and could easily crumple Mothra with a well aimed mid-air ram if need be.

So, Jiger being fragile is patently untrue, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in previous matches. She has taken plenty of punishment without dying, including being lifted up and dropped from a great height multiple times. I know that Gamera foes have a reputation for weakness, but her actual showing in the film doesn't bear that out. She also attacks from a distance and has a lethally-disabling move when closed to melee range, meaning that her durability isn't tested as frequently. She came out victorious in two bouts with Gamera- and even when on the receiving end of the damage, was always able to offer a disabling riposte.

Junior survived a massive brawl with flying form/large-aggregate Destroyah, include being raked by his beams multiple times, brawling attacks, and even being injected full of micro-oxygen attacking his internal systems. He then rallied and won. After having survived all that, being roughed up and dragged around by a kaiju multiple times his size and the essential ultimate embodiment of indestructible power, and then dropped from a great height, it was finally enough to kill him. Again, the myth of fragility is only a myth; the drop was the coup de grace, not even remotely the full measure of what Junior endured and survived.

2001 Mothra, aside from the listed ability to revive another kaiju that contestants here are denying, has natural dexterity and speed to an impressive degree, the ability to tackle and grapple as any Mothra does- and ranged weaponry, with her poison stingers. Not powerful enough to do significant damage to someone like G2000 or KG, perhaps- but kaiju like King Kong and Baragon are not going to enjoy that kind of attack. Also, we've never seen Mothra vulnerable to 'crumpling' before. She's proved agile enough to avoid most physical attacks, and not been demonstrably disabled by them- only by choosing to take the force of GMK's fearsome ray intentionally, to shield an ally.

5. The issue is, we NEVER see MG75 use that shield in the movie. there are plenty of times where he could have, but he never did, and the site says it was a feature the first MG used, so we have no idea if the second one even has it. For all intents and purposes, the barrier isn't something MG2 has, and even if it had it, then it never uses it.

The site stats linked for the match- the official stats for the kaiju being used in this battle- affirm the shield's existence. Mechagodzilla '75 never really used it in the film, true- but he was never really under attack from the heat ray in the film, either, until the end when his control had been disabled. The circumstances never called for it. Regardless, the site affirms its existence- and there's no evidence that he wouldn't use it when under ray attack just as he did in the '74 incarnation; the film simply doesn't provide the opportunity for him to do so. (I mean, it's not like I'm claiming he's going to be hiding behind it the whole time, or anything. But if, for instance, G2000 is getting ready to attack- for which there is ample warning- and that beam's effect has already been demonstrated on the field, then I am quite confident Mechagodzilla is going to be raising his barrier to counter.)



Right, then, so- not canceling out Kiryu. Fair enough. As discussed- the guy's a glass canon. Oh, don't get me wrong- he is a canon, but also definitely the least-durable of the Mechagodzillas. In a similar way, Zone Fighter has a limited duration in the fight- but he packs a punch. So, then...

I'd stand by the list above, in terms of kaiju that more or less cancel each-other out, with the majority of slight edges going to mine. If we do the simplest thing and midfy that scenario with Kiryu and Zone Fighter going against each-other, I'm quite happy positing... well, pretty much a similar result, actually; Zone Fighter will be staggered by Kiryu's arsenal, but not defeated; more agile, he'll be able to avoid the worst of melee-based damage and block the missiles with his Meteor Zone Barrier, and reflect maser and other energy attacks with his Meteor Reflection Barrier. He could keep this up for a long time, letting Kiryu take himself out- or go on the offensive and floor Kiryu with his proton beam (which one-shot kills a number of kaiju, and is going to be staggering even for stronger foes); or, going for a less blow-it-all-in-one-shot approach, meteor missile might, in a few successive rounds, can also bring Kiryu low. (At which point, ZF would be out of power and only have another almost-two-minutes of martial arts to contribute to the fight before bowing out). That is going to be enough, in my estimation, having just dived into the series, to drop Kiryu. I am quite confident that he and Zone Fighter will still, in essence, end up mutually excluded from the fight.

As discussed, Heisei and 2000 will occupy each-other, probably exclusively, for the entire fight with Heisei emerging the eventual victor.

Beyond that, Mechagodzilla's rotating missiles alone are brutal; he's going to maul his target... and if return fire prompts him into an all-out assault, even worse for the opposition. But simply picking off one opponent at a time, punching a hole through their chest and letting them explode from the inside as he did for showa, is going to be enough. He, Jiger, Junior, Battra, and Mothra are all going to be blazing away at the incoming opposition- while King Ghidorah, Gigan, Gipsy, and Fire Rodan are going to be returning fire. Jiger's heat ray is going to be especially effective against either metallic foe, and that may lead to her being targeted and taken out early, before she gets to ovipositor range- but not before doing some damage. (And if the contention is that she wouldn't... then her low-priority status would likely be enough to get within that range and take someone out in a one-shot. Either she's a threat, and does a brief, glorious career of damage... or she's the nothing that some opponents claimed, gets overlooked, and utilizes her most lethal weapon. Either way, she's going to do anywhere from moderate to lethal damage to at least one foe.)

Battra has the durability to take what Fire Rodan's dishing out and return the damage; Junior, as noted, has the firepower to deal with Gypsy Danger (at the cost of his own life, most certainly, as it can also bring the heat while being demolished), and Mothra, I'm guessing, is going to be a match for Gigan (based on his prior tendencies). Her agility is going to keep her in the fight longer than Gigan's previous Mothra dance-partner, as well as dealing actual damage against him in retaliation; and while I don't suspect that she will be able to defeat him, she's going to keep him busy long enough for one of the other fighters- Jet Jaguar, Mechagodzilla, or Jiger (in the scenario where she didn't do heavy damage to either Gigan or Gipsy using her ray and get taken out; alternatively, substitute a surviving Junior or 'Gigan's already been heavily damaged and Mothra's the one'), I'm guessing- to finish him off.

That probably leaves MechaGodzilla and King Ghidorah to tangle, which is a pretty good match; MechaG has the damage output to equate to the punishment needed to take down KG, but KG also has the damage potential to take his slayer down with him (notably, I think that will take a while because Heisei King Ghidorah, like most of the Ghidorahs, does not have great aim ). Very much zero-sum-games all around. At this point, a weary, battered Heisei Godzilla and Fire Rodan might be the only limping survivors. (And I'd definitely be confident declaring Godzilla the winner there).


That just leaves the brawlers- Kong, Rodan, and Baragon against Jet Jaguar, Anguirus, and Sanda. As discussed in the previous round, Rodan doesn't really have the damage potential to defeat Anguirus, although they'll probably be at it the whole fight. Sanda and Baragon will be a tough little tussle; I'm convinced that, like his progenitor, Sanda will eventually emerge victorious; the size difference is less severe (unless I'm misunderstanding how we're scaling), and although Baragon has a lot more weight behind him, he doesn't have a ranged weapon. Again, this battle will take a while.

Kong and Jet Jaguar will be an interesting matchup; JJ has the agility, flight, and a dirty trick with his eye lamps; he's also a pretty potent fighter one-on-one. Kong has the brawling force, and despite having a low durability against bullets, he does pretty well against brawls. I honestly don't even know if I could call a victor here; JJ doesn't go down easy and has the bells and whistles to compensate for lack of brute strength, and he'd make Kong work hard for any victory... but Kong is also in his element, brawling. In the end, the decisive means to a victory might be the Rodan tactic; pick him up and drop him. Whether he can before Kong's pounding jars loose some crucial circuits, I don't know. I could see it going either way, depending entirely on the tactics either used. But even if Kong does emerge victorious here, there will be enough reinforcements coming with Sanda, Anguirus, and either Jiger or Mothra (based on the varying Gigan possibilities above) to take him down eventually- and I don't see Jet Jaguar, even if he is not victorious, being brought down in any kind of timescale to allow Kong to double-team either of the other long brawls.


Once again, even with noted adjustments, I still see my team taking it. There are a lot of 'they take each-other down' match-ups, but I still believe I have the critical few needed to remain last man standing at the end. Even if we swap it around, and have a few of the heavy hitters raking the ranks instead of each-other at the start, essentially eliminating that last two paragraphs, I still think I have what it takes for my heavy-hitters to edge out yours.

[Coobzilla03]

I think Zarm's argument has convinced me well enough.