King of Showa R5 - FINALE - Godzilla '70s vs. Gigan & Megalon

[gzillafan17]

Godzilla manhandled Spylar and Wargiglar, even though the were beating up ZF easily, and the fact they were both taller and 4x the weight of Showa.

[Zarm]

Megalon is borderline --------, and although the duo is pretty strong I just don't see them out smarting Godzilla. Sure it's 2v1, but Godzilla can easily handle the two of them.

But they literally did outsmart him. Right at the start of the fight. They suckered him by playing dead, stunned him, and stuck a bomb next to his head that Jet Jaguar had to save him from. That's the thing with this match; it is boring, as Giratina93 said- but part of the reason it's boring is because we have seen this combat. We have seen the efficacy of each side against the other. We have seen that Godzilla cannot handle a 2v1. We have seen what his strength, and his tactics, and his abilities can do against them, and what they can't. We've already seen his maximum performance, with assistance that he will not have here. And we've seen that he required assistance both to defeat them, and to escape from their attacks. There just isn't any precedent to say he'll do better against them than he already did (and no logic; how will he suddenly do better while taking more hits and being attacked from multiple directions and having to deal more damage than he already did when he had help)- and there is repeated precedent to say that without a partner to split the incoming fire, he will be overwhelmed.

Added in 11 minutes 7 seconds:

Godzilla manhandled Spylar and Wargiglar, even though the were beating up ZF easily, and the fact they were both taller and 4x the weight of Showa.

Godzilla shoved Wargillar- which did nothing but knock him over to get right back up again (incidentally, Megalon did the exact same thing to Godzilla, the first punch of their solo fight)- tore a thing off Spylar and attacked him, and then immediately had to fend off Wargillar again, at which point Zone Fighter intervened. Both kaiju were back up and fighting, unimpaired by what Godzilla did. He never had to fight them 1-on-2; he shoved one away, fought the other 1-on-1, and was just getting back to a 2-on-1 when Zone Fighter showed up and it became two 1-on-1s. Nothing is demonstrated here, and based on the amount of fight left in both of them after Godzilla's attack, no devastating fighting ability is demonstrated here.

Likewise, sighting height and weight does nothing, because 70s Godzilla with 70s Godzilla strength was already the one fighting Gigan and Megalon. It's not like the size and weight of those two kaiju demonstrate that he will somehow have an easier time against Gigan and Megalon because we've already seen how he fares against them with that same level of strength.

And yeah, 70s Godzilla is strong. And he does manhandle people when he's one-on-one. But when he's two-on-one, he gets manhandled.

[Gman1954]

Godzilla '70s
Godzilla has beaten both of them before. I think it will be pretty tough but I think Godzilla can pull it off.

[gzillafan17]

Considering, he was tossing them around, and the fight only lasted a few seconds, and already ripped of his back thingy. I was stating the height and weight to demonstrate his strength and power, which probably increased as time goes on, as he fights stronger and bigger enemies.

[Zarm]

Godzilla '70s
Godzilla has beaten both of them before. I think it will be pretty tough but I think Godzilla can pull it off.

He has not beaten them together without assistance that was required for the victory. And he has never beaten 2-on-1 before. Please see rest of thread for recap, to avoid redundancy.

Added in 3 minutes 52 seconds:

Considering, he was tossing them around, and the fight only lasted a few seconds, and already ripped of his back thingy. I was stating the height and weight to demonstrate his strength and power, which probably increased as time goes on, as he fights stronger and bigger enemies.

But the fight didn't only last a few seconds. Only Godzilla's solo part did, and at no point of it did he fight both of them. He shoves one away (if that counts as 'manhandling,' then Meglaon also 'manhandled' 70s Godzilla, because his opening punch did the exact same thing to 70s), fights the other- and does absolutely nothing to disable either of them. Both are still in fighting shape, and continuing fighting in 2 separate one-on-one battles. Again, this demonstrates nothing for 70s.

Likewise, his strength and power showing here demonstrates nothing, as this was the same strength and power rating he was already at when fighting Gigan and Megalon. Zone Fighter Godzilla is 70s Godzilla. Godzilla vs. Meglaon Godzilla is 70s Godzilla. He doesn't get a boost from ZF feats because he was already there during the combat with Gigan and Megalon. So again, strength and weight feats do nothing to affect the argument (except maybe make Gigan and Megalon more impressive for withstanding them and requiring assistance from those feats combined with a tag-team partner in order to take them down).

[Demon Lord Gira]

What a boring finale. Really, this is just... boring.

We've all seen Godzilla manhandle Gigan before, and it's only going to be worse here. By the time of Zone Fighter and ToMG, Showa Godzilla was a physical juggernaut that couldn't be contended with up close. Sure, Titanosaurus outmuscled him, but Godzilla was by far the better fighter and was beating him senseless. Sure, there's no Jet Jaguar here to help Godzilla, but does he really need it? We've seen how easily Showa Godzilla can handle 2v1's, and Gigan and Megalon... are sorta screwed here.

You mean not at all? Unless Zone Fighter gave him better performance, but those monsters were probably not at Gigan and Megalon's level.

Yes, Zone Fighter gave him a better leg when it came to 2v1's, as best showcased here (And remember, ZF kaiju outweigh Godzilla by a lot)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1fvw4 ... r_creation

And before people keep saying "But ToMG..." well hold your horses because there's a world of difference between Titano+MG 75, and Gigan+MG. You're looking at this in a vaccuum, at just the numbers game and going "well, Godzilla must suck at 2v1 in general"

That's not the case. The duo of Titano + MG 75 was the perfect partnership. Every time Godzilla got the upper hand against Titano (Which was most of the time), MG was safe to fire away from the back lines and do severe damage to Godzilla with his weapons. Similar case with Gigan and Ghidorah: Ghiddy's beams are still potent enough to ruin any chance of Godzilla taking on Gigan 1 on 1. Megalon... is not either of those two. Sure, his napalm's something, but not by much. It also doesn't help that Megalon has the IQ of a 5 year old. This 2v1 lacks the cohesion and synergy that Titano and MG did, and once Godzilla gets the upper hand, Gigan's gonna run for the hills, leaving Megalon completely screwed.

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

Yes, Zone Fighter gave him a better leg when it came to 2v1's, as best showcased here (And remember, ZF kaiju outweigh Godzilla by a lot)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1fvw4 ... r_creation

I had never actually seen Zone Fighter. When I heard that 70s Godzilla took on Heisei weight kaiju, I imagined him struggling to lift them, then throwing them a fair distance. What I didn't imagine was him just sending kaiju four times his weight rolling with such ease. Hold on, are ZF feats allowed for Godzilla here? Everyone's just kinda been going with them, we never actually got an answer. But if they are allowed, Gigan and Megalon are getting manhandled.

[Kiryu2012]

Yes, Zone Fighter gave him a better leg when it came to 2v1's, as best showcased here (And remember, ZF kaiju outweigh Godzilla by a lot)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1fvw4 ... r_creation

I had never actually seen Zone Fighter. When I heard that 70s Godzilla took on Heisei weight kaiju, I imagined him struggling to lift them, then throwing them a fair distance. What I didn't imagine was him just sending kaiju four times his weight rolling with such ease. Hold on, are ZF feats allowed for Godzilla here? Everyone's just kinda been going with them, we never actually got an answer. But if they are allowed, Gigan and Megalon are getting manhandled.

Zone Fighter is basically canon to the Showa Godzilla era.

[Zarm]

Yes, Zone Fighter gave him a better leg when it came to 2v1's, as best showcased here (And remember, ZF kaiju outweigh Godzilla by a lot)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1fvw4 ... r_creation

I had never actually seen Zone Fighter. When I heard that 70s Godzilla took on Heisei weight kaiju, I imagined him struggling to lift them, then throwing them a fair distance. What I didn't imagine was him just sending kaiju four times his weight rolling with such ease. Hold on, are ZF feats allowed for Godzilla here? Everyone's just kinda been going with them, we never actually got an answer. But if they are allowed, Gigan and Megalon are getting manhandled.

They are counted, I believe. But keep in mind, this is the same level of strength that Godzilla already had in the movie. Zone Fighter Godzilla is not any different from Godzilla vs. Megalon Godzilla; they're both 70s Godzilla. 70s Godzilla isn't going to be better against Gigan and Meglaon than 70s Godzilla; his showing has still been proven.

Additionally- and most importantly- even with that level of strength, he's still beaten down in every 2-vs-1 that he has in Zone Fighter.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1i69g ... r_creation

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1jqk0 ... g_creation


Any appearance of excessive strength is either an outlier (not demonstrated before or since), or as seen in the evidence of this film, and the films to follow (which includes ToMG), it does not affect his melee performance in any way, because he has still been shown to lose to 2-on-1 every time (including Spideros and Garaborg, Jellar and Kaster Jellar, and Titanosaurus and Mechagodzila, all of which definitely come after the Spyler and Wargilar fight (which is ZF episode 4), as far as I can tell.)

Again, his performance against Gigan and Megalon can not exceed what we saw in Godzilla vs Megalon, when he fought the same two monsters as the same version of Godzilla. And regardless of any strength feats he has demonstrated, his total failure in 2v1 remains, both before and after the clip posted above.

Also, keep in mind that this Zone Fighter fought a wounded, still-recovering Gigan (following the events of this movie). He took hits and was knocked down by Gigan, and knocked him down in return. He triumphed, owing to Gigan's wounded status, and knocked him unconscious... for a matter of a few seconds, after which he got back up at fighting strength again and took on Zone Fighter. He didn't do any better against Gigan than he did in vs. Gigan; indeed, if you assume that Gigan was actually knocked unconscious for a portion of the minute or two that Godzilla was fighting King Ghidorah, then Godzilla here, with that Zone Fighter strength, actually did less against a wounded Gigan than he had previously done against a full-strength version; either way, there is definitely no manhandling-boost to his performance compared to his performance in previous fights. He is able to throw him, when beaten helpless, as he could before. He is able to lift and slam against the ground, when beaten helpless, as he did before. And for all that, he was only able to KO or stun Gigan for a matter of seconds, which Gigan easily came back from just as he did before.

This, combined with the 2v1 failures, demonstrate that Zone Fighter Godzilla is not going to be any different from Godzilla vs. Megalon Godzilla; both are 70s Godzilla, with a weakness to duos, and an ability to overcome their foes 1-on-1 (but not to any higher degree in one appearance than the other). Again, what we saw in Godzilla vs. Megalon is still what we get; nothing in ZF changes that.



Added in 20 minutes 31 seconds:

Yes, Zone Fighter gave him a better leg when it came to 2v1's, as best showcased here (And remember, ZF kaiju outweigh Godzilla by a lot)

70s Godzilla has never had success in a 2 vs. 1. In Spyler and Wagilar's case, he pushes one guy out of the way, fights the other one-on-one, he starts to grapple with the guy he just pushed- and then Zone Fighter comes in to make it two one-on-ones. He never fights them two-on-one; it doesn't last long enough to get past the effects of his initial sucker punch (which, again, Megalon does to him, sending him rolling with his opening punch) before Zone Fighter arrives.

Meanwhile, the 2v1 fights he actually has- Jellar and Kastom Jellar, Garaborg and Spideros- he ends up on the ground, being beaten mercilessly, or being manhandled helplessly, and Zone Fighter has to come rescue him in both cases.

Megalon... is not either of those two. Sure, his napalm's something, but not by much. It also doesn't help that Megalon has the IQ of a 5 year old. This 2v1 lacks the cohesion and synergy that Titano and MG did, and once Godzilla gets the upper hand, Gigan's gonna run for the hills, leaving Megalon completely screwed.

Gigan and Megalon wordlessly coordinated a (successful) fake-defeat and ambush in the opening seconds of their battle with Godzilla. They absolutely have cohesion and synergy; they work together whenever they are not both being occupied by a different partner (which they won't be here), and demonstrate a coordination and apparent-communication that are almost-human.

In addition, Megalon has not just his Napalm bombs, but also his Horn Ray, and his melee ability- which has already been shown to be capable of beating Godzilla down. In the cases with Zone Fighter, it took nothing more than a partner's melee attacks- just grabbing 70s Godzilla and holding him all the other one punched, or pushing into the ground- in order to stymie 70s' attacks and render him helpless.

In order for Gigan or Megalon to be taken down by Godzilla, 70s required uninterrupted attacks for long stretches of time- and in Megalon's case, heavy assistance from a partner. Both Gigan and Megalon are more than capable of stymieing his attack. And Godzilla has not even proven capable of rendering them temporarily unconscious long enough for him to beat down the other one before the first partner recovers. In addition, he hasn't proven capable of putting Megalon down without assistance at all. Nor has he proven capable of actually beating Gigan into unconsciousness, unless he was already wounded first. (Which begs the question I asked before this match started- is this a deathmatch, or is this a 'Godzilla must be killed but Gigan and Megalon just run away' match?)

Either way, Megalon has proven more than capable of doing everything he needs to in order to disrupt Godzilla's attacks, just his Gigan has- just as the Zone Fighter kaiju have. Again, 70s has never triumphed in a 2v1, and has been rendered helpless frequently- even by nothing more than melee. That's all that's required- one partner grabbing or hitting Godzilla, as the Spideros and Garaborg fight demonstrates; and Megalon and Gigan have more than enough synergy for that, no matter what one thinks of them.

[Showa Gojira]

Also, keep in mind that this Zone Fighter fought a wounded, still-recovering Gigan (following the events of this movie). He took hits and was knocked down by Gigan, and knocked him down in return. He triumphed, owing to Gigan's wounded status, and knocked him unconscious... for a matter of a few seconds, after which he got back up at fighting strength again and took on Zone Fighter. He didn't do any better against Gigan than he did in vs. Gigan; indeed, if you assume that Gigan was actually knocked unconscious for a portion of the minute or two that Godzilla was fighting King Ghidorah, then Godzilla here, with that Zone Fighter strength, actually did less against a wounded Gigan than he had previously done against a full-strength version; either way, there is definitely no manhandling-boost to his performance compared to his performance in previous fights. He is able to throw him, when beaten helpless, as he could before. He is able to lift and slam against the ground, when beaten helpless, as he did before. And for all that, he was only able to KO or stun Gigan for a matter of seconds, which Gigan easily came back from just as he did before.

This, combined with the 2v1 failures, demonstrate that Zone Fighter Godzilla is not going to be any different from Godzilla vs. Megalon Godzilla; both are 70s Godzilla, with a weakness to duos, and an ability to overcome their foes 1-on-1 (but not to any higher degree in one appearance than the other). Again, what we saw in Godzilla vs. Megalon is still what we get; nothing in ZF changes that.

Just watched Godzilla's fight with Gigan in Zone Fighter and I have to say you are vastly overrating Gigan's performance while downplaying how easily Godzilla thrashes him. Gigan manages to knock Godzilla down once when he attacks him from behind when Godzilla had just finished saving Zone Fighter. Before that Godzilla effortlessly knocked him out and after getting sneak attacked he quickly recovers and beats Gigan down again. In Godzilla vs Gigan the cyborg monster at least got a few hits in without needing to attack from behind, here Godzilla defeats him easily, which shows how much Godzilla had improved in terms of strength and skill.
As for failing in 2 vs 1 fights, go back and watch the fight in Godzilla vs Megalon. The dynamic duo tries to attack Godzilla while Jet Jaguar is down and get beat down quickly at the start of the fight. Godzilla wins this fight for sure, he doesn't need an Ultraman knock off to help him defeat these two chumps.
Also I haven't watched Zone fighter with subtitles, is it explicitly said Gigan is weakened? I was under the assumption he just couldn't fly under his own power.

[Zarm]

Just watched Godzilla's fight with Gigan in Zone Fighter and I have to say you are vastly overrating Gigan's performance while downplaying how easily Godzilla thrashes him. Gigan manages to knock Godzilla down once when he attacks him from behind when Godzilla had just finished saving Zone Fighter. Before that Godzilla effortlessly knocked him out and after getting sneak attacked he quickly recovers and beats Gigan down again. In Godzilla vs Gigan the cyborg monster at least got a few hits in without needing to attack from behind, here Godzilla defeats him easily, which shows how much Godzilla had improved in terms of strength and skill.

It didn't strike as me as particularly different from the vs. Gigan confrontation. But again, this is not evidence that Godzilla has improved in strength or skill; only that Gigan is hampered by his injuries. If there is a greater disparity between the two performances than I accounted for, that's my bad (though even so, Godzilla does not manage to KO him for as long as he has in previous confrontations). Regardless, Godzilla's show of strength, or victory in 2v1 battles, shows itself to be just the same in subsequent matches and movies. He was still badly overwhelmed by Jellar and Kastom Jellar, Spyderos and Garaborg, Mechagodzilla and Titanosaurus subsequent to this.

Again, 70s Godzilla already fought Gigan and Megalon; we've already seen this. He doesn't suddenly become stronger than himself, and his stats in dual battles remain unchanged throughout the run of Zone Fighter and beyond. His battle against a weaker Gigan does not show significant enough improvement to be accounted for by anything besides the existing injuries; he may go down quicker, but he also goes down shorter, and still has plenty of fight left in him after these temporary incapacities. There is no evidence for an increase in Godzilla's power- and no evidence up through the end of the 70s run that he can handle a 2v1 battle without losing.

As for failing in 2 vs 1 fights, go back and watch the fight in Godzilla vs Megalon. The dynamic duo tries to attack Godzilla while Jet Jaguar is down and get beat down quickly at the start of the fight. Godzilla wins this fight for sure, he doesn't need an Ultraman knock off to help him defeat these two chumps.

I have watched it. Godzilla walks over to check on the two of them, and Gigan and Megalon spring a trap. Neither were KOed, both were playing possum. They drop Godzilla, leave a napalm bomb next to his head, and he does need an Ultraman knockoff (Jet Jaguar, in this case) to save him. Megalon uses the same tactic again later, pretending to be unconscious, to launch a (less-successful) sneak attack.

Additionally, neither Gigan nor Megalon are defeated by that fight; calling that a 2 vs. 1 victory means that the first time Godzilla falls over during a fight, he is also defeated. And believe me, that would be a LONG record of losses. They weren't even close to defeated, so even if this had been a legitimate pair of knockouts rather than a trap, it was far from a victorious battle. The battle was just beginning.

Also I haven't watched Zone fighter with subtitles, is it explicitly said Gigan is weakened? I was under the assumption he just couldn't fly under his own power.

Nor have I; but every source I have seen indicates that he is 'still recovering from the wounds received in Godzilla vs. Megalon' (I'm guessing this is why he flies in on a parachute, as you mention?)

[Inferno Rodan]

Godzilla 70s wins because he's proved capable of overcoming this duo already. Yes, it was only momentary, but there's nothing to suggest that Godzilla wouldn't have simply proceeded to do a repeat performance once he got back up. The main problem is Gigan and Megalon lack the proper coordination to effectively or consistently overwhelm an opponent as powerful as this Godzilla, and he handily defeats either one of them individually.

[Zarm]

Godzilla 70s wins because he's proved capable of overcoming this duo already. Yes, it was only momentary, but there's nothing to suggest that Godzilla wouldn't have simply proceeded to do a repeat performance once he got back up. The main problem is Gigan and Megalon lack the proper coordination to effectively or consistently overwhelm an opponent as powerful as this Godzilla, and he handily defeats either one of them individually.

Short version: He did not beat them, they were faking (playing possum) and launched a successful ambush that floored Godzilla. He did not overcome either opponent by himself, and was able to deal with them one at a time and only take attacks from them one at a time, as he won't here. He has proven historically incapable of defeating two opponents by himself. Godzilla did *not* simply repeat that performance when he got back up; it took him the whole rest of the fight (including assistance from Jet Jaguar, two tail slides, and repeated slams tot he ground) just to get Megalon to flee, and again, that was with Gigan being occupied by JJ for the majority of the time.

Gigan and Megalon do not lack coordination; they wordlessly set up a successful ambush within the first minute of Godzilla engaging them, which only JJ's presence intervening was enough to save Godzilla from; the idea that they lack coordination is a myth.

Yes, Godzilla can defeat either individually (in theory; he has never actually done so with Megalon), but in combination, attacking them in concert without another target for one of them to be distracted by, is an entirely different matter. 70s Godzilla has *never* done this before, ever. He *always* loses to a 2-prong attack until outside intervention arrives. This is a matter of record. His melee tactics for actually defeating enemies also require a second party, which he lacks here; without a partner, his big damage-dealers cannot be performed (such as the tail-slide, tackles against Mechagodzilla, etc.; while moves like the body-slamming on Megalon are unlikely to be doable as long as the enemy has a tag-team partner there to attack Godzilla while he's making the attempt). Additionally, Godzilla has never been able to KO either of them (minus the ZF showing with a wounded Gigan) in a time shorter than they have remained KOed, meaning that even if he knocks one out, he has proven incapable of knocking the other one out before the first one is back up again.


For further details on any of these points, please see the last two pages worth of addressing these same points over and over and over again. I will avoid doing so again because I'm sure it's becoming as tiresome to you as it is to me. They are there for consideration before posting any votes, and I do request that new posters take them into consideration, but I won't just keep reiterating them in response to every new post.

[Inferno Rodan]

He did not overcome either opponent by himself, and was able to deal with them one at a time and only take attacks from them one at a time,

You realize you just contradicted yourself here, right?

And Godzilla DID effectively repeat his performance against Gigan and Megalon later in the fight, as I summarized in the match last round.

[Zarm]

He did not overcome either opponent by himself, and was able to deal with them one at a time and only take attacks from them one at a time,

You realize you just contradicted yourself here, right?

Not at all (but perhaps my phrasing was unclear). Godzilla was able to *fight* with each of them individually, and only take attacks from one of them at a time. He did not actually *defeat* either of them individually, however; Jet Jaguar took Gigan for the latter half of the fight and they finished him off together, and Ggian- while repeatedly knocked down by Godzilla- was not actually induced to flee until Jet Jaguar and Gigan unleashed a series of apparently-devastating tandem attacks that Godzilla will not be able to without a partner, or unhindered solo access to his opponent.

And Godzilla DID effectively repeat his performance against Gigan and Megalon later in the fight, as I summarized in the match last round.

If you're referring to knocking each of them to the ground again, sure- as individuals, split up, he is able to temporarily incapacitate them, while Jet Jaguar takes hits from the other one. That has no relevance here; the question is not whether Godzilla can take them individually, but whether he can take them in combination, without an ally. (Which, again, he has never been able to with ANYONE, and even his brief positive showing here was clearly shown to be both Megalon and Gigan 'taking a dive' to set up their ambush).

To put it another way, it's clear that Obi-wan Kenobi can defeat Darth Maul. And he can defeat General Grievous. But neither of those is the same thing as trying to fight Darth Maul and General Greivous attacking him at the same time. (Of course, for all I know, this actually happened in the Clone Wars cartoon, and it's a bad analogy). But the ability to overcome two individuals separately in combats, or to overcome the pair of them with the aid of an ally who takes them on and holds them off repeatedly during the fight, is wholly different from being able to deal with both at once and no aid. (And again, 70s has consistently failed in every such situation).

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

This is a really tough decision, but Gigan and Megalon.
One victory against two monsters of the week, who seemed to become even more incompetent once Godzilla walked in, doesn't change his record in 2v1s. Gigan and Megalon are much more deadly than Wargilgar and Spyler. They may not have perfect synergy, but they're still quite tough. Godzilla's beam will hurt, but I don't see it doing enough to stop them. It will be a long battle, but I just don't see Godzilla coming out on top.