Inferno Rodan wrote:Zarm wrote:So, he just turned around and left because he was fed up with fighting?
Essentially, yes. King Ghidorah always retreats the moment fights don't go his way.
But obviously, didn't contribute to the damage quotient. Still, if you prefer to discount that one as 'with significant enough help to make a difference,' that's fine by me. The subsequent film still holds.
Yes, the battle that lasted about 2 and a half minutes, in which KG took a grand total of 8 or so hits (none of which could really be counted as powerful) before turning tail and running away.
So, you're trying to imply that 60s Godzilla and Rodan did no actual damage, and Ghidorah just chose to leave, but every one of 70s opponents that fled were legitimately defeated by his fierce battle prowess? I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly. Speculations into Ghidorah's proclivities could easily be applied to any of 70s' foes save Mechagodzilla and Wargilgar, if you want to go down that road (Only the electrodes ever did damage to Hedorah, Godzilla never did a thing. Gigan, Meglaon, and King Ghidorah all got fed up and left without taking any damage. Titanosaurus was taken down by the sonic attacks and after the kinetic force of 70s' beam made him lose his balance, he just decided to peace out and swim away even though Godzilla never caused him more than minor discomfort...)- but that way lies madness.
Godzilla 60s and Rodan defeated King Ghidorah, repeatedly, by causing him enough harm to force his retreat, just as 70s and Anguirus did to Gigan and Ghidorah, 70s and Jet Jaguar did to Gigan and Megalon, 70s did to Hedorah (before use of the electrodes), and so-forth.
Inferno Rodan wrote:
One physically moved both Godzilla and the twice-as-heavy Mechagodzilla against their will. The other did not. That's more than a 20% differential, I'd say.
A. The center of gravity on a standing Godzilla to be knocked backward by a blast at face height is entirely different from a blast directly underneath his entire body lifting him up like a rocket; an explosion of the same force from the two angles would not have an equivalent effect.
B. We don't actually see Godzilla when the high explosives happened- it is impossible to determine that position displacement did not happen, so the claim that 'one moved him, the other did not' is wholly unsubstantiated.
Inferno Rodan wrote:
He never uses it as such. One could argue that Godzilla's claws are for piercing as well, since that's generally what claws are for, but he never used them for such so it's a moot point.
Very well. It delivers damage, but not in a piercing fashion.
Inferno Rodan wrote:
Shortly after the Tower was destroyed in GvsG, Godzilla beat Gigan completely senseless. This was effectively a 1-on-1 encounter, as KG was either standing there watching or fighting Anguirus.
However, by your own reasoning, this doesn't count, as Gigan got back up again and was not actually defeated. (Otherwise 70s has been 'beaten into submission' multiple times as well, including earlier, when he was completely senseless and unconscious). For all of that beating, Gigan is not taken down by this display of melee power. He has to get shot down by the ray several times.
(Additionally, Godzilla beat on Gigan, then Gigan hit Godzilla who
ran away and hid behind cover, behavior that poor King Caesar was mercilessly mocked for
, after which Godzilla beat on Gigan some more- and after he left to go after King Ghidorah, Gigan was back on his feet within 15 seconds (not exactly a resounding defeat) after which he took gravity bolts, a Ghidorah tackle, and three atomic rays before bowing out for a minute and 15 seconds- less time than Godzilla was helpless not ten minutes earlier in the battle, and even then wasn't conclusively KOed, as he was awake and ready to flee as soon as he saw Ghidorah running, which appears to have been his actual motivation to retreat. In short, Godzilla did not defeat him in any meaningful way with melee, was himself 'defeated' worse in the same battle, and neither drove Gigan off solely through the damage inflicted OR did the critical damage that actually put him temporarily out of the fight via melee.)
Inferno Rodan wrote:
In GvsMegalon, Godzilla single-handedly dealt with and KOed both Gigan and Megalon while Jet Jaguar was recovering from the beating they'd given him. This portion of the fight was 2-on-1, as JJ had no part in it. Then, once JJ had recovered and both sides paired off, Godzilla beat Gigan nearly unconscious again. They then switched partners, and Godzilla proceeded to leave Megalon laying dazed on the ground in a matter of moments.
70s was beaten worse than this by Godzilla Tower, being drug around unconscious by Gigan for what appears to be over a minute after another minute and a half of flailing- in which case, by these same terms, 70s was 'beaten into submission' in the same way. In addition, either both of them woke up from their KOs very immediately and with convenient timing, or else they were playing dead, since Gigan suckered Godzilla in close for an attack, and Megalon was immediately there with the follow-up attack. Likewise, there is no evidence that Gigan was 'nearly unconscious' before he flew away; at best, he was stunned for about 2 seconds and then immediately flew off to launch another attack.
And yes, Megalon did seem to be down on the ground- but I will note that this was an 'extremely short and uneventful battle that Megalon almost immediately tapped out from' where he 'took a grand total of 2 or so hits (neither of which could really be counted as powerful)'. In other words, the choreography didn't seem to justify the results... yet the results are what stand. Just like the King Ghidorah battle, the actual damage dealt is a matter of record irrespective of opinion about the battle's quality.
But all that pedantism aside, neither Godzilla's KO from Godzilla Tower, nor the cited incidents with Gigan and Megalon, actually defeated or drove off the opponents being faced (nor are they anything that hasn't been done to 70s, and not counted as a defeat due the temporary-stun nature).
For lack of a better term, we're talking about dealing damage sufficient that the foe cannot or will not continue the battle, thus ending the battle- and while 70s can gain the upper hand in a combat (and also have the enemy gain the upper hand against him in a combat), actually defeating an opponent with his melee is beyond his capacity. He requires a ray or finisher, and a partner or outside aid (save for the first time with Gigan, which appears to have been in part a self-motivated choice based on Ghidorah's actions rather than a direct result of anything Godzilla did).
Inferno Rodan wrote:
In ToMG, every encounter Godzilla had with Titanosaurus, Godzilla got the upper hand in... which is when MG would step in and shoot him to even the odds again. At one point Godzilla had beaten Titano unconscious and was lifting him over his head, only to have MG shoot him from behind.
Yes, he is weak against being tag-teamed, which bodes ill for this match (he also demonstrates this with Spideros and Garabog; he is very poor at defending against two melee attackers at once, and requires rescue). But again, an upper hand is not a victory any more than his foes getting the upper hand over him is a loss- and a solo melee victory has never been demonstrated.
The point, lest the forest be lost for the trees, is that 70s has never demonstrated the melee capability to actually put one of his foes down unaided. Yes, he can stun them temporarily (as he himself can be stunned temporarily), and sometimes in combo with his beam, he's able to do most of the heavy lifting. But waging a fight without the assistance of a partner doing additional damage, and finishing that fight with solely his own skills, is not something that he is able to do in almost any of the cases... and certainly not something he's able to do without bringing in the beam. His solo-melee is not sufficient to take down any opponent that he's ever come across. And when you add this into the fact that he has almost never had to deal with two targets that don't have their fire split by a partner- and in Terror of Mechagodzilla and the Zone Fighter Spideros & Garabog, he doesn't do very well with that. (With Jellar and Kastor Jellar, he acquits himself decently in melee despite being eventually overwhelmed, and with Gigan and Megalon, he manages to handle both for a time, but in neither case can he actually turn things around to victory unaided) it really puts into perspective why he doesn't have the tools to win this battle.
He has the disadvantage of being double-teamed, which he does not do well against. He has to deal with being the target of both sets of attacks, which he does not do well against. He doesn't have a partner to help him do any of his melee finishers, meaning the melee that he has is insufficient to end the fight. He also doesn't have a partner to help him deal damage, making him the sole responsible party for dealing out all damage, which doesn't bode well for being able to catch and damage both opponents, especially while both are attacking him. His one primary advantage, the ray, is ineffective against one of the two enemies, and the other has demonstrated a high degree of durability against explosive attacks (the primary component besides kinetic force that 70s' ray has demonstrates), as well as against the gravity bolts of King Ghidorah and other weaponry- and from the Rodan/Godzilla brawl, has indicated an additional level of durability and endurance that makes me extremely skeptical that 70s' ray will be able to kill him... but at the very least, will allow him to hang into the battle for a very long time- much longer than 70s has under the dual assault.
70s simply lacks all of the favorable elements that allow him to win battles, and is subject to all of the negative elements that have given him the most trouble and required his being saved by the intervention of a partner before- a partner that he does not have here. In short (too late!
), this is why I would maintain that 60s and Rodin will claim the victory. It will be a lengthy battle, for certain, but 60s and Rodan have demonstrated that they can handle a lengthy battle, and 70s is disadvantaged by the need for endurance, his enemies' superior numbers, and the lack of support. Those are conditions that, based on the showing he is giving us, and the demonstrated strength and durability of his foes, he just cannot prevail in.
(...And now back to your regularly-scheduled point-by-point).
Inferno Rodan wrote:And watch the vid Giratina posted on the previous page. Godzilla killed Wargilgar 100% on his own there. Zone Fighter never touched him after Godzilla showed up.
With a beam, after extensive battles with Zone Fighter and Godzilla, starting the battle at a point when Wargilar was already on the ropes and had to be rescued by Spyler. Definitely not a melee victory OR a solo victory.
In fact, while 60s Godzilla has a solo-kill count of 4 (Mothra, Ebirah, at least 2 Kamacuras... and that's not counting Kumonga because of Minya's extremely-minimal assistance, Anguirus-by-melee because that's technically in the 50s, or the Giant Condor)- 70s Godzilla has a solo kill OR incapacity count of 0. Hedorah, Mechagodzilla 2, and Titonasaurus all required human intervention (or resources, in Hedorah's case), while Gigan, Megalon, Ghidorah, and Mechagodzilla 1 were all fought with assistance.
Inferno Rodan wrote:
Comparing an already-dying Mothra and Kamacuras with the likes of Hedorah and Mechagodzilla is utterly absurd, and frankly grasping at straws.
No straws are being grasped, my good fellow. If you want to remove Mothra and the Kamacuras from the list, and continue discounting Kumonga, that's still one more solo victory than 70s has ever claimed. I am not comparing the power levels of the kaiju, just the demonstrated ability to handle a foe with only the resources the combatants in this match have at-hand.
That said, in terms of comparison, I'd suggest that a number of 70s foes- Megalon, MG2, Zandolla, Jellar, and possibly other ZF kaiju, Gigan, and/or Titanosaurus-
were of equivalent durability levels to Ebirah, Kumonga, etc., and were not soloed by 70s any more than the juggernauts like Hedorah and MG1 were.
And more importantly, based on the cited durability for 60s and Rodan, I'd suggest that
they have equal/greater durability than a number of those that 70s has failed to defeat without help.
Inferno Rodan wrote:
Do you honestly think 60s Godzilla could have beaten any of those 70s foes without assistance? Or that 70s Godzilla couldn't kill those 60s foes?
Without assistance? No. But 60s is not without assistance in this battle. With the help that 70s had in each film, I think 60s could have taken most, if not all of 70s' foes. With a partner of equivalent strength (as GTTHM demonstrates) as well? The victories would be unquestionable.
And yes, 70s probably could take all of those foes. But the claim here is not that 70s is 60s' equal, but that he is vastly superior (particularly in melee), and definitely superior to this two-person combo. And Godzilla 70s has not been able to match the victories that this unit have achieved (unaided victory against King Ghidorah), nor has he individually achieved any solo, unaided victories (much less kills) as 60s has. The theoretical ability might be there, if he had a different opponent. But of the many opponents he faces, in the films and Zone Fighter, he has yet to score a victory without aid- a victory all on his own, as he would be here. It's just never happened. And if the answer to that is reducing his opponents to what you claim are far-weaker foes in order for him to achieve a victory, that doesn't make any points in 70s' favor.
Inferno Rodan wrote:
Anguirus had no role whatsoever in Gigan's retreat in GvsG, unless for some bizarre reason you consider him knocking KG into Gigan as the most devastating blow Gigan took.
No, but it wasn't Godzilla's melee that put him into a retreat, either. (Also, side note- how absurd is it that Godzilla picks him up by literally
hugging his buzzsaw, and Gigan just kind flails around trying to look helpless instead of turning it on and shredding Godzilla's face? Not relevant to the fight, that just struck me while reviewing the scene).
Gigan retreated because King Ghidorah retreated, and not as a direct result of any attack he took from Godzilla (as previously discussed). I can accept that Godzilla's beating certainly put him in the mood to consider retreat, and was not insubstantial.
But it did not actually cause his retreat, nor put him in a place of being unable to fight back in any way that he couldn't come back from as easily as Godzilla did from his own earlier incapacity. The retreat was an option Gigan not choose to avail himself of until he saw that his backup was already fleeing; at best, we can call this an indirect result of Godzilla's combined melee and ray attacks as well as the accidental collateral from King Ghidorah, combined with a direct result of Ghidorah's actions. (But at the time 70s was finished meleeing with him, Gigan was still ready and in the fight).
Inferno Rodan wrote:Likewise no one helped him tear off Mechagodzilla's head in either film; King Caesar's rams really had no effect on the battle since MG was already subdued at that point anyway,
Godzilla was holding him in place while King Caesar tackled. MG was not in any way subdued by melee OR beam, he was just immobilized by Deus Ex Magnetism.
The head-tear wasn't until after Mechagodzilla had been smashed up by multiple tag-team tackles visibly warping his carapace.
Inferno Rodan wrote: and Godzilla just flat out did it on his own in ToMG. Granted, the ToMG example wasn't technically a finisher, but against literally anything else it would have been.
But it arguably wouldn't have been possible on any other being that lacked seams and a rotating joint there.
Inferno Rodan wrote:
The first of said victories was with a third partner that completely subdued KG with webbing, and the second was under questionable circumstances involving an alien plot. Only the third counts as a proper victory for them, and it was an extremely short and uneventful battle that KG almost immediately retreated from.
I'll grant that the first had an ally (though I'd debate the 'completely subdued' claim). For the second, we have no evidence that the fight was thrown- and the very basis of the plot seems to indicate that the aliens regarded Godzilla and Rodan a Ghidorah-stopping threat. Both the second and the third are legitimate victories- boulders half the size of Ghidorah's torso were being dropped on him to obvious effect, tackles were exchanged- and Ghidorah fled a confrontation that, as you put it, was not going his way. He chose to flee because he was losing to 60s and Rodan (else he would've fled earlier). He was defeated by their attack; that's the entire pointing of his running, in both cases.
Inferno Rodan wrote:One of 60s Godzilla's favorite things to do in battles is ineffectually chuck rocks.
In the battles with Ghidorah, at least, multiple of those rock-throws appear to have been quite effective. And Zone Fighter actually used a giant boulder to hurt 70s... though based on that scene, and vs. the Sea Monster, we may have read this battle all wrong. This may actually be an extended tennis match between the two Godzillas, until Rodan comes in and drops a rock the size of his torso to break things up.