King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Participate FM Tournaments and see who is the best of the best!
User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

Inferno Rodan wrote: Your metric has a faulty basis though. It's not "70s defeated a weak Ghidotah with assistance, while 60s and Rodan defeated a strong Ghidorah without assistance." It's "70s Godzilla defeated a weak Ghidorah and Gigan with assistance, while 60s and Rodan defeated a strong Ghidorah without assistance." Weak Ghidorah + Gigan > strong Ghidorah.
Measuring two different things. You are asking 'who had a tougher battle?' Yes, Godzilla 70s did (with a tag-team partner, as usual). I'm asking 'How did their performance against Ghidorah compare,' in which instance Gigan's presence is irrelevant.

I can tell this is just confusing the conversation, though. In terms of overall performance, I would consider 70s+Ally vs. Weak Ghidorah+Gigan to basically even out to about the same as Godzilla + Rodan vs. Strong Ghidorah.

Either way, I'm happy to drop the argument.

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Everything he did in GTTHM, which already proved effective against Godzilla. Picking Godzilla up and dropping him, for instance.
...Which did nothing to Godzilla, so I don't see your point.
It immobilized him, prevented him from counterattacking, occupied him fully. It was a stalemate, which demonstrates a level of power for Rodan.

And again, it's fine if we want to downplay Rodan's attack power- that's my gut response in most circumstances... but based on GTTHM and Astro-Monster, every bit that we decrease Rodan by, we have to increase Godzilla by in their showing against King Ghidorah (increasing his estimation of power levels; if you want to put Rodan at 'almost no help,' that's fine, but it puts 60s up to the level of 70s with 'nearly-solo-ing-Ghidorah')... and based on their ability to match each other in their fights, you can't create too great a disparity between their capabilities without violating what we see onscreen.

The bottom line is, Rodan can fully occupy Godzilla's attention in a fight with effective tactics which can render him helpless (which is usually a death-knell when 70s and an ally do it), and between the two of them, enough offensive power to defeat King Ghidorah is fielded.

Inferno Rodan wrote:
I would disagree with this, as 70s has shown himself to be temporarily incapacitated any number of times (Hedorah's sludge pit, MG's missile- which King Caesar tanked one of without more than flinching, and took 2 to 3 to be stunned- the explosion from a beam lock, rotating missile to the gut, laser canon hits at Monsterland, etc.), and seemingly nearly defeated at multiple others. He's been made to gush fountains of blood and bleed from numerous projectiles in a way that 60s never was. This isn't to suggest that many of these causes were not powerful, but nonetheless he has been put on the ropes and made to bleed by far more than 60s Godzilla ever has. (60s primary foe seems to be extreme cold).
Ok? All of those things (sludge pit aside) are more powerful than anything 60s Godzilla or Rodan can muster, so, again, I don't see your point here.

The fact of the matter is Godzilla went up against far more dangerous opponents which packed much more powerful weapons in the 70s than he did in the 60s. The same things would have happened to 60s Godzilla if he'd been exposed to those attacks, too.
My point is, Godzilla 70s was repeatedly demonstrated to take injury. 60s wasn't. The claim that everything 70s faced was simply stronger would take supporting or opposing calculations I doubt either of us have time for right now, but the fact remains that 70s has been shown to be prone to injury, stun-KO, and sometimes more permanent disability; 60s seldom if ever suffered such lapses. And the idea that it's because he somehow only fought pushovers would bear some major vetting before acceptance.
Inferno Rodan wrote: Please don't take that ring of fire scene seriously. Showa Godzilla -70s and otherwise- demonstrated on numerous other occasions that fire didn't bother him.
That is what I was asking for evidence of. Do you have a 'for instance'?

Inferno Rodan wrote: And your assertion that 70s Godzilla's beam would have no effect on Rodan is questionable at best, because it's substantially more powerful than 60s' beam. It's just as hot, and far more explosive. The heat is just less of a factor because he typically doesn't fire it for as long as he did earlier in the series. I would also argue that Godzilla's beam appeared to be exceptionally weak in GTTHM, which certainly worked in Rodan's favor.
Rodan's immunity to Godzilla's ray is an established attribute. The idea that it is based on degree of intensity has not been established, and I would question what the evidence is that the beam is just as hot, or explosive. Kinetically-forceful, certainly. Regardless, the burden of proof that Rodan's immunity against the beam of the same entity would somehow cease due to a change in the ray's nature lies upon the conjectured claim; in absence of such evidence, the previous-existing immunity has been demonstrated.
Inferno Rodan wrote: And 70s Godzilla most definitely has the strength to put down both Rodan and 60s Godzilla. His strength far, far exceeds anything either one of them went up against, and, just as importantly, he has massively greater fighting skill on top of that.
You remember Rodan's capacity to absorb damage, I take it? And showa's resistance to... well, pretty much everything that was thrown at him, bar cold? ;) As well as the endurance to battle for, seemingly, days? (And that's not even counting surviving a nuclear explosion destroying an island because he was a few dozen feet offshore.) I don't think the evidence backs up the assertion that 70s has the strength to put them down- and the claim that 70s Godzilla's strength exceeds that of peak King Ghidorah is... iffy, at best. Matches, maybe- but exceeding anything they've ever gone up against? And again, when has 70s' fighting style (I assume we're discussing melee) proved super-effective when he's on his own? He can hold while the other guy hits, or unleash some special drop-kick or finisher if he's got a partner to hold the target- but on his own, I don't see his fighting style being that devastating. He's got some moves, sure; but dealing significant damage with them? Not on his lonesome.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

MuchWowSuchGodzilla
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 805
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:08 pm

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by MuchWowSuchGodzilla »

Sorry for not being all that active, but G70s takes it. Rodan is borderline useless, and Godzilla 70s outmatches his 60s counterpart in every way possible.
...Duuuude. Imagine the staring contest Iris and Jet Jaguar could have. Now THAT would be a battle for the ages!

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

Here's the thing, though. Rodan and 60s defeated Ghidorah three times (depending on how much you factor in Mothra'svSilly String for the first victory) and the idea that Rodin is useless and 60s just can't handle that much doesn't jive with the films.

I get it- instinct says Rodan can't do much, 60s isn't that strong. For me, instinct says that Imago Mothra will put up an identical showing against Godzilla to the Giant Condor, and last just as long. But that's not what happens in the films. And that forces me to reevaluate my previous assumption about Mothra's strength level, based on what she's actually able to accomplish and how long she's actually able to hold her own in the various films that she features in.

The same thing is happening here. There is the baseline assumption that Rodan is going to be pretty useless in a fight, that 60s can't handle big guns- but the actual film evidence contradicts those assumptions. Rodan manhandles Godzilla (of equal weight and proportions to 70s, or thereabouts) fighting him to a standstill. Godzilla survives a pit full of explosives, takes every thrashing the Ghidorah has to hand to him multiple times, and always emerges victorious- certainly less bloodied and battered then 70s' opponents typically leave him. (And a claim that that means that 70s' opponents are even stronger because they're defeating 70s' even stronger strength by that much of a margin is circular logic for proving 70s' strength based on an unfounded assumption that it simply must naturally be higher than 60s').

The idea that Rodan ought to be useless to most people is countered by the fact that he and 60s- this exact same team- defeated a peak power Ghidorah twice, and with minor assistance, thrice. I would urge anyone who's vote is based on an assumption of weakness or inability to do damage from Rodan and 60s to go back and reevaluate based on what's on screen, because the initial assumption- though natural, and one I share- has been disproven by the films themselves.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

MuchWowSuchGodzilla
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 805
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:08 pm

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by MuchWowSuchGodzilla »

Ehhh, Zarms got me. Changing my vote due to pretty much everything Zarm just said, but it wont be easy. The duo take it.
...Duuuude. Imagine the staring contest Iris and Jet Jaguar could have. Now THAT would be a battle for the ages!

User avatar
GodzillavsRayquaza
Site Staff
Site Staff
Posts: 6254
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by GodzillavsRayquaza »

The most impressive thing Rodan did to King Ghidorah was the midair ram, and that hardly did anything. Godzilla and Rodan won that fight because aside from durability, Showa King Ghidorah is garbage. Yeah, he flings monsters away from him with ease, but that's all he does. His heads are too spastic to actually use his gravity bolts effectively, and he never even fires them for long enough to have a deadly effect. He flees the moment the fight becomes dangerous. 60s Godzilla and Rodan beating King Ghidorah is not as impressive as you're making it out to be. I distinctly remember you siding with 70s Godzilla against King Ghidorah last round.
KWC Co-Operations Manager
KWCE Administrator


ShinGojira14 wrote: Neither. Hideki Anno wins because he writes a hilarious comedic satire movie where Shin and Legendary have to team up to destroy a grotesque crap-monster created by the constant toxic bickering of Shin fans and Legendary fans.
SoggyNoodles2016 wrote: Yup, my dad works at Legendary, the Nebulans are gonna be in the next movie and they're gonna get beat because Madison throws coffee in the leaders face.

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:The most impressive thing Rodan did to King Ghidorah was the midair ram, and that hardly did anything. Godzilla and Rodan won that fight because aside from durability, Showa King Ghidorah is garbage.
Perhaps... but when the argument is that 60s and Rodan lack attack power, that durability is what counts in the argument. When it comes to aspects like anti-Godzilla tactics, other scenes work in support- like the Godzilla versus Rodan battle, demonstrating the latter's ability to deal with a foe of equivalent shape and size. The Ghidorah fight is only one aspect, but one important to demonstrating their offensive capability, which is one of the key items that is in question.
GodzillavsRayquaza wrote: I distinctly remember you siding with 70s Godzilla against King Ghidorah last round.
I did, true- because the Ghidorah wasn't specified, and 70s demonstrated that he could defeat a version of Ghidorah. (And also, I loathe King Ghidorah). ;) But the one thing even I can't deny that this particular incarnation of Ghidorah (as opposed to the one from vs. Gigan) has is an impressive durability... making him a valuable benchmark for the ability to deal out damage.

Added in 1 minute 43 seconds:
MuchWowSuchGodzilla wrote:Ehhh, Zarms got me. Changing my vote due to pretty much everything Zarm just said, but it wont be easy. The duo take it.
You validate my faith in the value of debate, sir (or madam). Well met. :)
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
GodzillavsRayquaza
Site Staff
Site Staff
Posts: 6254
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by GodzillavsRayquaza »

Zarm wrote:
GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:The most impressive thing Rodan did to King Ghidorah was the midair ram, and that hardly did anything. Godzilla and Rodan won that fight because aside from durability, Showa King Ghidorah is garbage.
Perhaps... but when the argument is that 60s and Rodan lack attack power, that durability is what counts in the argument. When it comes to aspects like anti-Godzilla tactics, other scenes work in support- like the Godzilla versus Rodan battle, demonstrating the latter's ability to deal with a foe of equivalent shape and size. The Ghidorah fight is only one aspect, but one important to demonstrating their offensive capability, which is one of the key items that is in question.
I need to rewatch some of the Showa movies to debate you better on this.
KWC Co-Operations Manager
KWCE Administrator


ShinGojira14 wrote: Neither. Hideki Anno wins because he writes a hilarious comedic satire movie where Shin and Legendary have to team up to destroy a grotesque crap-monster created by the constant toxic bickering of Shin fans and Legendary fans.
SoggyNoodles2016 wrote: Yup, my dad works at Legendary, the Nebulans are gonna be in the next movie and they're gonna get beat because Madison throws coffee in the leaders face.

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

I'm a Heisei guy through and through, but I have to admit, after watching that era of the films recently, that is no bad thing to have to do. :)
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
Inferno Rodan
Futurian
Posts: 3985
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Azur Lane

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Zarm wrote:(And a claim that that means that 70s' opponents are even stronger because they're defeating 70s' even stronger strength by that much of a margin is circular logic for proving 70s' strength based on an unfounded assumption that it simply must naturally be higher than 60s').
It's not circular because no one is claiming that 70s Godzilla is more durable than 60s Godzilla.

Rodan failed to do any damage to Godzilla when they fought. This is fact. Thus, it stands to reason that he will fail to do any damage to 70s Godzilla.

60s Godzilla's beam is the most potent thing in the duo's arsenal. The only beam attacks that caused significant harm to 70s Godzilla were the Godzilla Tower laser and Mechagodzilla's eye beams. Both of these are quite clearly more powerful than 60s Godzilla's beam, and both still required multiple hits in rapid succession and/or in tandem with other attacks to cause said harm. 60s Godzilla does not use his beam like that, thus it stands to reason that 70s Godzilla will handle 60s Godzilla's beam just fine.

The only physical attacks that caused any harm to 70s Godzilla were Gigan's claws and saw and Mechagodzilla's missiles. These are all dedicated piercing weapons. Both 60s Godzilla and Rodan are notably lacking in weaponry capable of piercing, unless you count Godzilla's teeth which he rarely uses and never significantly harmed anything anyway. Thus, it stands to reason that 70s Godzilla will handle any physical attacks from the duo just fine.

So, Zarm, I ask you this: How do you suggest the duo will kill or otherwise subdue 70s Godzilla? Your entire argument essentially boils down to the fact that they managed to drive away King Ghidorah three times (one of which probably shouldn't even count In the first place, considering the whole thing was a ploy to get Godzilla and Rodan under their control), and you haven't put forth any actual evidence regarding how they will win here. 70s Godzilla only ever retreated once, and that was when he was wounded badly enough that he turned a harbor red with blood in a matter of seconds AND his opponent was just as badly messed up as he was. It was a mutual withdrawal, not a one-sided one. So driving him away like they did to King Ghidorah isn't a viable option here. They will have to either very gravely wound him or beat him completely senseless, neither of which are things I think they are capable of.

On the other hand, 70s Godzilla demonstrated multiple times that he's fully capable of physically beating opponents (some of whom were much more skilled fighters than his 60s self) into submission. 70s Godzilla has what it takes to put his opponents in this match down. The duo does not.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

Inferno Rodan wrote: Rodan failed to do any damage to Godzilla when they fought. This is fact. Thus, it stands to reason that he will fail to do any damage to 70s Godzilla.
Rodan did not do any significant damage to Godzilla when the fought; nor Godzilla to Rodan. However, lest you count that as a low damage threshold, they did do damage to King Ghidorah, whose primary hallmark is durability. This lack of damage to each-other is not a sign of low attack, then, but of extreme durability to the both of them. King Ghidorah's attacks, they can weather successfully; their own as well. And as per the wiki (perhaps someone can confirm?) they were fighting for days- evidence an endurance that 70s has not shown, either.

Regardless, both have demonstrated the capacity to endure attacks strong enough to drive off a kaiju whose hallmark is his durability (potentially for days on end) without any sign of lasting harm to themselves. You ask how they will hurt 70s? I will ask again- how will 70s ever be able to hurt them, considering the endurance and durability they evidence here? It would require 70s Godzilla to deal damage on an order of magnitude higher than King Ghidorah, without using his ray in one case. Meanwhile, while dealing with damage sufficient to punch through King Ghidorah's durability, being double-teamed (which 70s does not do well against), and dealing with a foe that has directly evidenced being able to immobilize Godzilla and render him helpless.

Inferno Rodan wrote: 60s Godzilla's beam is the most potent thing in the duo's arsenal. The only beam attacks that caused significant harm to 70s Godzilla were the Godzilla Tower laser and Mechagodzilla's eye beams. Both of these are quite clearly more powerful than 60s Godzilla's beam, and both still required multiple hits in rapid succession and/or in tandem with other attacks to cause said harm.
60s' ray melted stone and steel, caused massive fireballs, massacred Kamacruas and Ebirah, and again, contributed to Ghidorah's downfall. What evidence do we have that the Godzilla tower beams and Mechagodzilla's beams are more powerful? (Also, I will remind you that the blood fountain that caused 70s to retreat was a midair explosion from a beam-lock that never even touched him. And likewise, that 70s has not always required blood to be temporarily incapacitated or rendered helpless. And that's not even counting the ring-of-fire thing, which was presented as a threat onscreen.)

That said, Ghidorah was driven off the first time by Rodan and Godzilla's hits (and Mothra's silly string) without any beam-use. So clearly this combo's damage potential does not rely on 60s beam; it is a help, but the power to overcome King Ghidorah's durability can be found in their melee alone.

Inferno Rodan wrote: The only physical attacks that caused any harm to 70s Godzilla were Gigan's claws and saw and Mechagodzilla's missiles.
And the rotating missiles, and the beam-lock explosion (meanwhile, 60s fell into a pit filled with high explosives designed to kill him and was unharmed) as well as Hedorah's acid.

I would call Rodan's beak a 'dedicated piercing weapon.' I would also suggest that physical attacks can harm without bloodletting; and further that the conclusion that '70s Godzilla will handle any physical attacks from the duo just fine' fails to account for melee attacks strong enough to harm peak King Ghidorah. (This isn't getting into tactics, mind you, and solely about damage-dealing). 60s and Rodan have demonstrated the power to do damage on a Ghidorah-level using melee alone, they have a piercing weapon on their side, plus an admittedly-powerful ray- and have demonstrated the endurance to absorb that same level of attack without harm, possibly (unconfirmedly) for days at a time. That is how they will win.

Inferno Rodan wrote: 70s Godzilla only ever retreated once, and that was when he was wounded badly enough that he turned a harbor red with blood in a matter of seconds AND his opponent was just as badly messed up as he was.
From an explosion that never even touched him, after having been downed, flailing around helplessly and holding off an arm to try and ward off further assault for about 20 seconds, from the same missiles that King Caesar absorbed between 2 and 3 of before being stunned.
Inferno Rodan wrote: They will have to either very gravely wound him or beat him completely senseless, neither of which are things I think they are capable of.
70s has been rendered in this condition multiple times; by the aforementioned Godzilla Tower, by Hedorah's sludge, by a Rotating missile to the gut, by Mechagodzilla's missiles to the neck- and that's just off the top of my head. (And not counting the aforementioned warehouse disaster). Again, 60s and Rodan have demonstrated the endurance and durability to tank Ghidorah-defeating attacks for hours if not days- and the ability to deal out those attacks; I think they are quite capable of reducing 70s to this state again.

Inferno Rodan wrote: On the other hand, 70s Godzilla demonstrated multiple times that he's fully capable of physically beating opponents (some of whom were much more skilled fighters than his 60s self) into submission.
How many times has 70s been able to beat his opponents into submission without a partner to assist? How often has he been able to do it against dual opponents? 70s relies on tag-team fighting; with it, he is lethal. Without it, he can't achieve near the same heights. He's got moves, but not finishers- he can throw a punch, but he can't put a foe down. He needs assistance; especially to deal with the 2-on-1 aspect. In addition, he tends to spend a lot of time with his nose-scratching taunt and lets the other guy make the first move, unless he already has a tag-team partner in distress (which he won't here). Even if he wasn't facing two opponents with the aforementioned anti-Ghidorah, anti-Ghidorah-defeating-attacks durability, 70s' formula for doing damage is incomplete. He doesn't have the required component of a partner that allows him to be truly effective in melee, especially against two opponents. And he's not going to have the human interference that allowed him to pull it off in Terror of Mechagodzilla, either. 60s and Rodan have demonstrated the ability to both dish out and tank damage at the required level. 70s doesn't have the right conditions to do that kind of damage (either with melee, or with beam against at least one of the two opponents), or endure that kind of damage (based on his previous injuries and incapacities).
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
Inferno Rodan
Futurian
Posts: 3985
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Azur Lane

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Zarm wrote:However, lest you count that as a low damage threshold, they did do damage to King Ghidorah, whose primary hallmark is durability.
No they absolutely did not.
60s' ray melted stone and steel, caused massive fireballs, massacred Kamacruas and Ebirah, and again, contributed to Ghidorah's downfall. What evidence do we have that the Godzilla tower beams and Mechagodzilla's beams are more powerful? (Also, I will remind you that the blood fountain that caused 70s to retreat was a midair explosion from a beam-lock that never even touched him. And likewise, that 70s has not always required blood to be temporarily incapacitated or rendered helpless.
When did 60s Godzilla's beam "cause massive fireballs"?

Anyway, Mechagodzilla's eye beams instantly annihilated large buildings. This is far beyond what 60s Godzilla's beam showed it was capable of.
That said, Ghidorah was driven off the first time by Rodan and Godzilla's hits (and Mothra's silly string) without any beam-use. So clearly this combo's damage potential does not rely on 60s beam; it is a help, but the power to overcome King Ghidorah's durability can be found in their melee alone.
It's pretty amusing how much you downplay Mothra's webbing. Once she started spraying him, KG's heads were completely bound to the point that he could barely move them and couldn't attack at all within a minute or so. Prior to that they were making no headway at all against him.
And that's not even counting the ring-of-fire thing, which was presented as a threat onscreen.)
Godzilla was herded toward the pit of explosives in KKvsG with rivers of burning gasoline.
And the rotating missiles, and the beam-lock explosion (meanwhile, 60s fell into a pit filled with high explosives designed to kill him and was unharmed) as well as Hedorah's acid.
I mentioned the missiles, sillypants. And acid is a chemical attack, which is something neither 60s Godzilla nor Rodan have so I didn't bother mentioning it.

And since you keep bringing it up and downplaying it in the process, let me remind you that the beam lock explosion was powerful enough to completely knock Godzilla off his feet and send him flying a fair distance into the water. It also damaged Mechagodzilla at least as badly as King Caesar ramming him multiple times. That is several orders of magnitude greater than the pit-full-of-dynamite.
I would call Rodan's beak a 'dedicated piercing weapon.'
When did Showa Rodan's beak ever pierce anything?
Inferno Rodan wrote:From an explosion that never even touched him, after having been downed, flailing around helplessly and holding off an arm to try and ward off further assault for about 20 seconds, from the same missiles that King Caesar absorbed between 2 and 3 of before being stunned.
Oh quit with the hyperbole. Yeah, he was stunned from an unexpected attack for a few seconds (12, to be specific). Big deal. Not only did he quickly shake it off and get back up (dodging a beam from MG in the process, might I add), he immediately retaliated upon doing so.

But okay, you wanna play this game? Fine.

60s Godzilla was left downed and flailing around helplessly for 13 seconds simply from King Ghidorah shoving him, at which point the camera cuts away to people fleeing and Rodan flying by to kick at KG. When the camera finally cuts back to show Godzilla some 30 seconds or so later (so a total of ~45 seconds after he first went down), he's only just gotten back to his feet and hasn't gotten around to retaliating against KG yet. Later in the fight, when KG shoves him again, he is again left flailing helplessly on the ground. This time for 20 seconds, and when he does finally manage to get back to his feet... he immediately stumbles and falls flat on his face again and takes another 15 seconds to get back up. And then when KG shoves him a third time, he is yet again left flailing helplessly on the ground for another 12 seconds.
70s has been rendered in this condition multiple times; by the aforementioned Godzilla Tower, by Hedorah's sludge, by a Rotating missile to the gut, by Mechagodzilla's missiles to the neck- and that's just off the top of my head. (And not counting the aforementioned warehouse disaster). Again, 60s and Rodan have demonstrated the endurance and durability to tank Ghidorah-defeating attacks for hours if not days- and the ability to deal out those attacks; I think they are quite capable of reducing 70s to this state again.
Yes, and 70s Godzilla got back up from all of those after a short amount of time. Hell, Titanosaurus kicked him hard enough to send him flying out of the city, and he still got up from THAT after a short time and was good as new. That's the thing about 70s Godzilla: you might be able to put him down, but keeping him down is an entirely different matter.

Also, I don't know why you keep using Hedorah's sludge pit as an example of Godzilla being incapacitated. It's not like it knocked him out or anything. He just got dropped in a hole and literally shat on. He was knocked out prior to that by toxic gas, followed by having sulfuric acid mist blasted in his face for a while before Hedorah even dropped him in there.
How many times has 70s been able to beat his opponents into submission without a partner to assist? How often has he been able to do it against dual opponents?
Gigan, Megalon, and Titanosaurus immediately come to mind. I'd say Spyler counts too, considering Godzilla ripped his freaking back off before walking away and leaving Zone Fighter to clean up while he proceeded to torch Wargilgar with a single shot of his beam. And the only reason Hedorah wasn't was because he's, well, a walking pile of sludge, and even then Godzilla still quite literally beat the shit out of him in their first encounter and dominating the melee confrontations in the final battle.
70s relies on tag-team fighting; with it, he is lethal. Without it, he can't achieve near the same heights. He's got moves, but not finishers- he can throw a punch, but he can't put a foe down. He needs assistance; especially to deal with the 2-on-1 aspect.
I find it funny that you accuse 70s Godzilla of not having "finishers" when the majority of your argument revolves around King Ghidorah retreating from 60s Godzilla and Rodan.
In addition, he tends to spend a lot of time with his nose-scratching taunt and lets the other guy make the first move, unless he already has a tag-team partner in distress (which he won't here).
Are you seriously implying that 60s Godzilla isn't just as, if not more, guilty of this? Because he damn sure is.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

Inferno Rodan wrote:No they absolutely did not.
So, he just turned around and left because he was fed up with fighting? :)

They dealt sufficient damage to cause peak-Ghidorah to retreat, the same qualifier that could be applied to Megalon, weaker-Ghidorah, and Gigan (twice) for 70s. I don't see how that's not reckoned as 'damage,' unless you're referring to lack of visible physical deformity (which could be said of most of 70s Godzilla's foes as well). If you prefer an alternate term, like 'did harm,' that's fine.

But either way, we know that the combined attack power of 60s and Rodin was enough to defeat peak-King Ghidorah, multiple times. This is an established fact. We also know that their endurance and durability was enough to withstand Ghidorah's attack, multiple times. This is also an established fact. We further know that the two of them were able to withstand each-other's attacks for days (I'm just going to go with 'days' rather than adding a qualifier every time, as that's getting awkward- if anyone has counter-evidence to that, feel free to post).

Since we know the amount of damage they're capable of doing (based on driving off Ghidorah), this gives us a baseline of the amount of damage they are also capable of absorbing without difficulty. (In essence, 50% of that attack being levied by each, absorbed with absolutely no trouble). If you downplay the strength of one of them, you must commensurately increase the strength of the other in order to still equal a total capable of doing Ghidorah harm. (I.e. if you claim that Rodan doens't contirbute much to the attack, maybe only 20%, then 60s' attack power is raised to 80%... and Rodan's durability is increased to being able to handle 80% of the attack that can drive off King Ghidorah for days without difficulty).

The two of them combined able to overcome one of the most durable (if not THE most durable) of all showa Kaiju, multiple times. The baseline of both attack and durability (again, along with the stamina/endurance to keep up a pitched battle for such a length of time with no ill effects) is very high, and I would go so far as to say exceeds the damage resistance that 70s has evidenced, while beating out his stamina by a mile.

At the very least, it demonstrates that they can operate on his level in both damage and defense, in addition to outnumbering him (which, as discussed below, is an unfavorable condition for the team-based fighter than 70s is), and having the capacity to immobilize him and carry him around at will.

Inferno Rodan wrote:When did 60s Godzilla's beam "cause massive fireballs"?
Anyway, Mechagodzilla's eye beams instantly annihilated large buildings. This is far beyond what 60s Godzilla's beam showed it was capable of.
DAM, New York. Which did not instantly annihilate a towering skyscraper, but made short work of it.

Still, conceded, on Mechagodzilla's beams (but the jury's still out on Monsterland Tower).

Inferno Rodan wrote: It's pretty amusing how much you downplay Mothra's webbing. Once she started spraying him, KG's heads were completely bound to the point that he could barely move them and couldn't attack at all within a minute or so. Prior to that they were making no headway at all against him.
But obviously, didn't contribute to the damage quotient. Still, if you prefer to discount that one as 'with significant enough help to make a difference,' that's fine by me. The subsequent film still holds.

Inferno Rodan wrote:Godzilla was herded toward the pit of explosives in KKvsG with rivers of burning gasoline.
Okay, you got me there. :) No more ring-of-fire. (Although Wargilar did appear to drive him back and set him on fire with that flame breath... ;) )

Inferno Rodan wrote: I mentioned the missiles, sillypants. And acid is a chemical attack, which is something neither 60s Godzilla nor Rodan have so I didn't bother mentioning it.
Sorry, I thought you meant the regular missiles, which also bloodied him. (As separate from the rotating missiles through the gut in ToM)

Inferno Rodan wrote: And since you keep bringing it up and downplaying it in the process, let me remind you that the beam lock explosion was powerful enough to completely knock Godzilla off his feet and send him flying a fair distance into the water. It also damaged Mechagodzilla at least as badly as King Caesar ramming him multiple times. That is several orders of magnitude greater than the pit-full-of-dynamite.
A little hard to determine based on the way they cut away from it. However, there was a titanic explosion the scale-equivalent of 5-7 feet away from Godzilla which (potentially) knocked him back into the water and had him fountaining blood... compared to a pit of high explosives that he was lying directly on, detonated underneath him (with an explosion that contained less fire, but apparently-equivalent blast-size; hard to tell because one never gave us a full picture and the other is shielded from view by the pit) which did absolutely nothing to him.

I don't see any evidence for an 'orders of magnitude' difference. I could buy the beam-lock explosion as more powerful- say, 120% of the vs. King Kong one- but also offset by the distance-from-center. Either way, that explosion completely wrecked 70s Godzilla, while the comparable-blast-size pit of high explosives 60s was lying directly on left him without a scratch.

Inferno Rodan wrote: When did Showa Rodan's beak ever pierce anything?
It's a beak. That's what it's for. :) I have not reviewed the films containing Rodan for specific examples.

Inferno Rodan wrote:after having been downed, flailing around helplessly and holding off an arm to try and ward off further assault for about 20(sic) seconds, from the same missiles that King Caesar absorbed between 2 and 3 of before being stunned.
Oh quit with the hyperbole. Yeah, he was stunned from an unexpected attack for a few seconds (12, to be specific). Big deal. Not only did he quickly shake it off and get back up (dodging a beam from MG in the process, might I add), he immediately retaliated upon doing so.

But okay, you wanna play this game? Fine.

(Snip)[/quote]


Was it 12? Huh. I misremembered, then.

I think you may be misunderstanding my intent, though. My point is not that Godzilla was downed, but that he was downed by that missile (and certainly, with his hand reaching out and inability to rise, seemed rendered helpless) when King Caesar wasn't, without taking twice to three times the same attack, also apparently unexpectedly. It isn't a game of 'Look, your Godzilla got knocked down, haw haw haw!' Godzillas get knocked down all the time, I get that.

Instead, it's a comparison of durability, with a kaiju that (despite my arguments) appears to have been decided on by the group as not particularly strong. It gives a baseline that 70s durability appears to be lesser than, based on two kaiju being hit with the same attack for the first time, and one being knocked down and floored by it while the other is either still upright and dodging, or takes a knee for no more than 1 second, and then is up and dodging. (A little hard to tell from the camera angle).

Again, I'm not trying to dis 70s Godzilla or claim that his getting knocked down is a sign of weakness (after all, as you point out, I'd have to disqualify 60s Godzilla for the same reason)- I'm just comparing his reaction to being hit by the missiles to King Caesar's reaction to being hit by the missiles. My apologies for getting a bit snippy about the beam lock at the same time, confusing the issue.

Zarm wrote:70s has been rendered in this condition multiple times; by the aforementioned Godzilla Tower, by Hedorah's sludge, by a Rotating missile to the gut, by Mechagodzilla's missiles to the neck- and that's just off the top of my head. (And not counting the aforementioned warehouse disaster). Again, 60s and Rodan have demonstrated the endurance and durability to tank Ghidorah-defeating attacks for hours if not days- and the ability to deal out those attacks; I think they are quite capable of reducing 70s to this state again.
Inferno Rodan wrote:Yes, and 70s Godzilla got back up from all of those after a short amount of time. Hell, Titanosaurus kicked him hard enough to send him flying out of the city, and he still got up from THAT after a short time and was good as new. That's the thing about 70s Godzilla: you might be able to put him down, but keeping him down is an entirely different matter.
Perhaps, but that's still a greater level of being affected than 60s and Rodan have demonstrated. (And yes, you rightly point out, simply being knocked to the ground does indeed happen to 60s as well. However, the bleeding, smoke-pouring-out-of-mouth, writhing under enemy fire stuff, not so much.) The point is not that 70s Godzilla is some kind of weakling- but that he displays the possibility of injury and incapacity to a great degree than his opponents in this match. When both bring a high power-level of attack to the fight, the ability to withstand damage without injury or lapse is a pretty crucial deciding factor, and 60s/Rodan have demonstrated that in far greater abundance than 70s has.
(Incidentally, Zandollar's ray and Jellar's jets appear to be added to that list, considering that it had 70s Godzilla down and helpless before Zone Fighter arrived to the rescue).

Inferno Rodan wrote:
How many times has 70s been able to beat his opponents into submission without a partner to assist? How often has he been able to do it against dual opponents?
Gigan, Megalon, and Titanosaurus immediately come to mind. I'd say Spyler counts too, considering Godzilla ripped his freaking back off before walking away and leaving Zone Fighter to clean up while he proceeded to torch Wargilgar with a single shot of his beam. And the only reason Hedorah wasn't was because he's, well, a walking pile of sludge, and even then Godzilla still quite literally beat the shit out of him in their first encounter and dominating the melee confrontations in the final battle.
Gigan and Megalon, he had Jet Jaguar (and Anguirus, for the first confrontation), and his finishing moves relied on his partner (and his beams, in both cases, for Gigan). Titanosaurus had heavy human intervention blasting him with sonic waves, and finished by knocking him over with an atomic breath rather than any kind of beating anyhow. And with Wargilgar, he still had plenty of fight left in him afterward (thus it was clearly not a mortal blow, and Godzilla's attack did not defeat him in any way)- and both kiaju were definitely tackled in tandem. In none of those cases was Godzilla able to take them out without assistance or intervention.

In fact, while 60s Godzilla has a solo-kill count of 4 (Mothra, Ebirah, at least 2 Kamacuras... and that's not counting Kumonga because of Minya's extremely-minimal assistance, Anguirus-by-melee because that's technically in the 50s, or the Giant Condor)- 70s Godzilla has a solo kill OR incapacity count of 0. Hedorah, Mechagodzilla 2, and Titonasaurus all required human intervention (or resources, in Hedorah's case), while Gigan, Megalon, Ghidorah, and Mechagodzilla 1 were all fought with assistance.

Inferno Rodan wrote:I find it funny that you accuse 70s Godzilla of not having "finishers" when the majority of your argument revolves around King Ghidorah retreating from 60s Godzilla and Rodan.
When the claim is that 70s Godzilla is lethal with melee, or does significant harm with it, it's necessary to look at where the damage dealt in the fight actually comes from. In the case of 70s' opponents, while they beat each other up for a time, the actual crucial damage- the defeats wherein they appear to absorb the majority of the critical injury that actually takes them out of the fight- happen with the finishing moves, all of which requires assistance. There is no evidence in these circumstances that 70s Godzilla just continuing to beat on them himself (while being beaten in return) would have defeated these foes; they require being immobilized and hit by a partner (or the partner immobilizing while Godzilla hits). These allow a significant portion of the overall damage to be done in moments... they are not applicable to this fight, where 70s Godzilla lacks a partner. Hence his melee prowess, and the ability to finish off an opponent with it, i severely compromised.

And that's how 70s Godzilla fights. A partner is there to deal additional damage to targets, divide enemy fire so that he's not being double-teamed, and immobilize or strike while Godzilla is immobilizing to actually finish the opponents off (this extends to Zone Fighter appearances as well). In the instances where this does not occur, humans still fill the same function- immobilizing and dealing additional damage to Titanosaurus and Mechagodzilla II, and preventing the double-teaming against him by splitting the targets. The one exception is Hedorah- where all kinds of strange is going on- but even then, human technology is required to back him up. It is general evidence that he has the theoretical ability to fight a solo enemy and defeat it solo, were its nature different than it was in this case... but that actual ability, to fight and defeat something entirely on his lonesome as he would in this match, has never been demonstrated... and his ability to handle a duo without assistance (even if that assistance is just a punching-bag ally to keep both foes from attacking him at once) has simply not been shown to exist, nor has his ability to melee an opponent into defeat without a partner assisting to allow him to break out a 'finisher' or move that does significant damage.

In essence, the reason I bring out the 'finisher' is that his capacity to end the battle usually hinges on it, and it usually hinges on assistance, making his wins dependent on a partner- whereas Rodan and 60s' victories are self-contained and require nothing other than what they actually have in this match- each-other.

Inferno Rodan wrote: Are you seriously implying that 60s Godzilla isn't just as, if not more, guilty of this? Because he damn sure is.
If he was, it sure didn't become as distractingly-noticable to my wife and I as it did during the nose-scratching excesses of the 70s. ;) But I'll take your word for it (sorry, I feel like that sounds patronizing though its not meant to be, but I can't think of a better phrasing) that this is the case for 60s, too.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
Inferno Rodan
Futurian
Posts: 3985
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Azur Lane

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Zarm wrote:So, he just turned around and left because he was fed up with fighting? :)
Essentially, yes. King Ghidorah always retreats the moment fights don't go his way.
But obviously, didn't contribute to the damage quotient. Still, if you prefer to discount that one as 'with significant enough help to make a difference,' that's fine by me. The subsequent film still holds.
Yes, the battle that lasted about 2 and a half minutes, in which KG took a grand total of 8 or so hits (none of which could really be counted as powerful) before turning tail and running away.
I don't see any evidence for an 'orders of magnitude' difference.
One physically moved both Godzilla and the twice-as-heavy Mechagodzilla against their will. The other did not. That's more than a 20% differential, I'd say.
It's a beak. That's what it's for. :) I have not reviewed the films containing Rodan for specific examples.
He never uses it as such. One could argue that Godzilla's claws are for piercing as well, since that's generally what claws are for, but he never used them for such so it's a moot point.
I think you may be misunderstanding my intent, though. My point is not that Godzilla was downed, but that he was downed by that missile (and certainly, with his hand reaching out and inability to rise, seemed rendered helpless) when King Caesar wasn't, without taking twice to three times the same attack, also apparently unexpectedly. It isn't a game of 'Look, your Godzilla got knocked down, haw haw haw!' Godzillas get knocked down all the time, I get that.

Instead, it's a comparison of durability, with a kaiju that (despite my arguments) appears to have been decided on by the group as not particularly strong. It gives a baseline that 70s durability appears to be lesser than, based on two kaiju being hit with the same attack for the first time, and one being knocked down and floored by it while the other is either still upright and dodging, or takes a knee for no more than 1 second, and then is up and dodging. (A little hard to tell from the camera angle).

Again, I'm not trying to dis 70s Godzilla or claim that his getting knocked down is a sign of weakness (after all, as you point out, I'd have to disqualify 60s Godzilla for the same reason)- I'm just comparing his reaction to being hit by the missiles to King Caesar's reaction to being hit by the missiles. My apologies for getting a bit snippy about the beam lock at the same time, confusing the issue.
And later on in the movie, Godzilla was struck by several of the exact same missiles without having that reaction, so...
Perhaps, but that's still a greater level of being affected than 60s and Rodan have demonstrated.
Well yeah. Neither of them got hit by attacks of the magnitude which harmed or otherwise incapacitated 70s Godzilla.
Gigan and Megalon, he had Jet Jaguar (and Anguirus, for the first confrontation), and his finishing moves relied on his partner (and his beams, in both cases, for Gigan). Titanosaurus had heavy human intervention blasting him with sonic waves, and finished by knocking him over with an atomic breath rather than any kind of beating anyhow. And with Wargilgar, he still had plenty of fight left in him afterward (thus it was clearly not a mortal blow, and Godzilla's attack did not defeat him in any way)- and both kiaju were definitely tackled in tandem. In none of those cases was Godzilla able to take them out without assistance or intervention.
Shortly after the Tower was destroyed in GvsG, Godzilla beat Gigan completely senseless. This was effectively a 1-on-1 encounter, as KG was either standing there watching or fighting Anguirus. In GvsMegalon, Godzilla single-handedly dealt with and KOed both Gigan and Megalon while Jet Jaguar was recovering from the beating they'd given him. This portion of the fight was 2-on-1, as JJ had no part in it. Then, once JJ had recovered and both sides paired off, Godzilla beat Gigan nearly unconscious again. They then switched partners, and Godzilla proceeded to leave Megalon laying dazed on the ground in a matter of moments. In ToMG, every encounter Godzilla had with Titanosaurus, Godzilla got the upper hand in... which is when MG would step in and shoot him to even the odds again. At one point Godzilla had beaten Titano unconscious and was lifting him over his head, only to have MG shoot him from behind. And watch the vid Giratina posted on the previous page. Godzilla killed Wargilgar 100% on his own there. Zone Fighter never touched him after Godzilla showed up.
In fact, while 60s Godzilla has a solo-kill count of 4 (Mothra, Ebirah, at least 2 Kamacuras... and that's not counting Kumonga because of Minya's extremely-minimal assistance, Anguirus-by-melee because that's technically in the 50s, or the Giant Condor)- 70s Godzilla has a solo kill OR incapacity count of 0. Hedorah, Mechagodzilla 2, and Titonasaurus all required human intervention (or resources, in Hedorah's case), while Gigan, Megalon, Ghidorah, and Mechagodzilla 1 were all fought with assistance.
Comparing an already-dying Mothra and Kamacuras with the likes of Hedorah and Mechagodzilla is utterly absurd, and frankly grasping at straws. Do you honestly think 60s Godzilla could have beaten any of those 70s foes without assistance? Or that 70s Godzilla couldn't kill those 60s foes?
When the claim is that 70s Godzilla is lethal with melee, or does significant harm with it, it's necessary to look at where the damage dealt in the fight actually comes from. In the case of 70s' opponents, while they beat each other up for a time, the actual crucial damage- the defeats wherein they appear to absorb the majority of the critical injury that actually takes them out of the fight- happen with the finishing moves, all of which requires assistance. There is no evidence in these circumstances that 70s Godzilla just continuing to beat on them himself (while being beaten in return) would have defeated these foes; they require being immobilized and hit by a partner (or the partner immobilizing while Godzilla hits). These allow a significant portion of the overall damage to be done in moments... they are not applicable to this fight, where 70s Godzilla lacks a partner. Hence his melee prowess, and the ability to finish off an opponent with it, i severely compromised.
Anguirus had no role whatsoever in Gigan's retreat in GvsG, unless for some bizarre reason you consider him knocking KG into Gigan as the most devastating blow Gigan took. Likewise no one helped him tear off Mechagodzilla's head in either film; King Caesar's rams really had no effect on the battle since MG was already subdued at that point anyway, and Godzilla just flat out did it on his own in ToMG. Granted, the ToMG example wasn't technically a finisher, but against literally anything else it would have been.
In essence, the reason I bring out the 'finisher' is that his capacity to end the battle usually hinges on it, and it usually hinges on assistance, making his wins dependent on a partner- whereas Rodan and 60s' victories are self-contained and require nothing other than what they actually have in this match- each-other.
The first of said victories was with a third partner that completely subdued KG with webbing, and the second was under questionable circumstances involving an alien plot. Only the third counts as a proper victory for them, and it was an extremely short and uneventful battle that KG almost immediately retreated from.
If he was, it sure didn't become as distractingly-noticable to my wife and I as it did during the nose-scratching excesses of the 70s. ;) But I'll take your word for it (sorry, I feel like that sounds patronizing though its not meant to be, but I can't think of a better phrasing) that this is the case for 60s, too.
One of 60s Godzilla's favorite things to do in battles is ineffectually chuck rocks.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Zarm wrote:So, he just turned around and left because he was fed up with fighting? :)
Essentially, yes. King Ghidorah always retreats the moment fights don't go his way.
But obviously, didn't contribute to the damage quotient. Still, if you prefer to discount that one as 'with significant enough help to make a difference,' that's fine by me. The subsequent film still holds.
Yes, the battle that lasted about 2 and a half minutes, in which KG took a grand total of 8 or so hits (none of which could really be counted as powerful) before turning tail and running away.
So, you're trying to imply that 60s Godzilla and Rodan did no actual damage, and Ghidorah just chose to leave, but every one of 70s opponents that fled were legitimately defeated by his fierce battle prowess? I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly. Speculations into Ghidorah's proclivities could easily be applied to any of 70s' foes save Mechagodzilla and Wargilgar, if you want to go down that road (Only the electrodes ever did damage to Hedorah, Godzilla never did a thing. Gigan, Meglaon, and King Ghidorah all got fed up and left without taking any damage. Titanosaurus was taken down by the sonic attacks and after the kinetic force of 70s' beam made him lose his balance, he just decided to peace out and swim away even though Godzilla never caused him more than minor discomfort...)- but that way lies madness. :) Godzilla 60s and Rodan defeated King Ghidorah, repeatedly, by causing him enough harm to force his retreat, just as 70s and Anguirus did to Gigan and Ghidorah, 70s and Jet Jaguar did to Gigan and Megalon, 70s did to Hedorah (before use of the electrodes), and so-forth.

Inferno Rodan wrote: One physically moved both Godzilla and the twice-as-heavy Mechagodzilla against their will. The other did not. That's more than a 20% differential, I'd say.
A. The center of gravity on a standing Godzilla to be knocked backward by a blast at face height is entirely different from a blast directly underneath his entire body lifting him up like a rocket; an explosion of the same force from the two angles would not have an equivalent effect.
B. We don't actually see Godzilla when the high explosives happened- it is impossible to determine that position displacement did not happen, so the claim that 'one moved him, the other did not' is wholly unsubstantiated.

Inferno Rodan wrote: He never uses it as such. One could argue that Godzilla's claws are for piercing as well, since that's generally what claws are for, but he never used them for such so it's a moot point.
Very well. It delivers damage, but not in a piercing fashion.

Inferno Rodan wrote: Shortly after the Tower was destroyed in GvsG, Godzilla beat Gigan completely senseless. This was effectively a 1-on-1 encounter, as KG was either standing there watching or fighting Anguirus.
However, by your own reasoning, this doesn't count, as Gigan got back up again and was not actually defeated. (Otherwise 70s has been 'beaten into submission' multiple times as well, including earlier, when he was completely senseless and unconscious). For all of that beating, Gigan is not taken down by this display of melee power. He has to get shot down by the ray several times.

(Additionally, Godzilla beat on Gigan, then Gigan hit Godzilla who ran away and hid behind cover, behavior that poor King Caesar was mercilessly mocked for :) , after which Godzilla beat on Gigan some more- and after he left to go after King Ghidorah, Gigan was back on his feet within 15 seconds (not exactly a resounding defeat) after which he took gravity bolts, a Ghidorah tackle, and three atomic rays before bowing out for a minute and 15 seconds- less time than Godzilla was helpless not ten minutes earlier in the battle, and even then wasn't conclusively KOed, as he was awake and ready to flee as soon as he saw Ghidorah running, which appears to have been his actual motivation to retreat. In short, Godzilla did not defeat him in any meaningful way with melee, was himself 'defeated' worse in the same battle, and neither drove Gigan off solely through the damage inflicted OR did the critical damage that actually put him temporarily out of the fight via melee.)

Inferno Rodan wrote: In GvsMegalon, Godzilla single-handedly dealt with and KOed both Gigan and Megalon while Jet Jaguar was recovering from the beating they'd given him. This portion of the fight was 2-on-1, as JJ had no part in it. Then, once JJ had recovered and both sides paired off, Godzilla beat Gigan nearly unconscious again. They then switched partners, and Godzilla proceeded to leave Megalon laying dazed on the ground in a matter of moments.


70s was beaten worse than this by Godzilla Tower, being drug around unconscious by Gigan for what appears to be over a minute after another minute and a half of flailing- in which case, by these same terms, 70s was 'beaten into submission' in the same way. In addition, either both of them woke up from their KOs very immediately and with convenient timing, or else they were playing dead, since Gigan suckered Godzilla in close for an attack, and Megalon was immediately there with the follow-up attack. Likewise, there is no evidence that Gigan was 'nearly unconscious' before he flew away; at best, he was stunned for about 2 seconds and then immediately flew off to launch another attack.

And yes, Megalon did seem to be down on the ground- but I will note that this was an 'extremely short and uneventful battle that Megalon almost immediately tapped out from' where he 'took a grand total of 2 or so hits (neither of which could really be counted as powerful)'. In other words, the choreography didn't seem to justify the results... yet the results are what stand. Just like the King Ghidorah battle, the actual damage dealt is a matter of record irrespective of opinion about the battle's quality.


But all that pedantism aside, neither Godzilla's KO from Godzilla Tower, nor the cited incidents with Gigan and Megalon, actually defeated or drove off the opponents being faced (nor are they anything that hasn't been done to 70s, and not counted as a defeat due the temporary-stun nature).

For lack of a better term, we're talking about dealing damage sufficient that the foe cannot or will not continue the battle, thus ending the battle- and while 70s can gain the upper hand in a combat (and also have the enemy gain the upper hand against him in a combat), actually defeating an opponent with his melee is beyond his capacity. He requires a ray or finisher, and a partner or outside aid (save for the first time with Gigan, which appears to have been in part a self-motivated choice based on Ghidorah's actions rather than a direct result of anything Godzilla did).

Inferno Rodan wrote: In ToMG, every encounter Godzilla had with Titanosaurus, Godzilla got the upper hand in... which is when MG would step in and shoot him to even the odds again. At one point Godzilla had beaten Titano unconscious and was lifting him over his head, only to have MG shoot him from behind.
Yes, he is weak against being tag-teamed, which bodes ill for this match (he also demonstrates this with Spideros and Garabog; he is very poor at defending against two melee attackers at once, and requires rescue). But again, an upper hand is not a victory any more than his foes getting the upper hand over him is a loss- and a solo melee victory has never been demonstrated.

The point, lest the forest be lost for the trees, is that 70s has never demonstrated the melee capability to actually put one of his foes down unaided. Yes, he can stun them temporarily (as he himself can be stunned temporarily), and sometimes in combo with his beam, he's able to do most of the heavy lifting. But waging a fight without the assistance of a partner doing additional damage, and finishing that fight with solely his own skills, is not something that he is able to do in almost any of the cases... and certainly not something he's able to do without bringing in the beam. His solo-melee is not sufficient to take down any opponent that he's ever come across. And when you add this into the fact that he has almost never had to deal with two targets that don't have their fire split by a partner- and in Terror of Mechagodzilla and the Zone Fighter Spideros & Garabog, he doesn't do very well with that. (With Jellar and Kastor Jellar, he acquits himself decently in melee despite being eventually overwhelmed, and with Gigan and Megalon, he manages to handle both for a time, but in neither case can he actually turn things around to victory unaided) it really puts into perspective why he doesn't have the tools to win this battle.

He has the disadvantage of being double-teamed, which he does not do well against. He has to deal with being the target of both sets of attacks, which he does not do well against. He doesn't have a partner to help him do any of his melee finishers, meaning the melee that he has is insufficient to end the fight. He also doesn't have a partner to help him deal damage, making him the sole responsible party for dealing out all damage, which doesn't bode well for being able to catch and damage both opponents, especially while both are attacking him. His one primary advantage, the ray, is ineffective against one of the two enemies, and the other has demonstrated a high degree of durability against explosive attacks (the primary component besides kinetic force that 70s' ray has demonstrates), as well as against the gravity bolts of King Ghidorah and other weaponry- and from the Rodan/Godzilla brawl, has indicated an additional level of durability and endurance that makes me extremely skeptical that 70s' ray will be able to kill him... but at the very least, will allow him to hang into the battle for a very long time- much longer than 70s has under the dual assault.

70s simply lacks all of the favorable elements that allow him to win battles, and is subject to all of the negative elements that have given him the most trouble and required his being saved by the intervention of a partner before- a partner that he does not have here. In short (too late! ;) ), this is why I would maintain that 60s and Rodin will claim the victory. It will be a lengthy battle, for certain, but 60s and Rodan have demonstrated that they can handle a lengthy battle, and 70s is disadvantaged by the need for endurance, his enemies' superior numbers, and the lack of support. Those are conditions that, based on the showing he is giving us, and the demonstrated strength and durability of his foes, he just cannot prevail in.

(...And now back to your regularly-scheduled point-by-point).

Inferno Rodan wrote:And watch the vid Giratina posted on the previous page. Godzilla killed Wargilgar 100% on his own there. Zone Fighter never touched him after Godzilla showed up.
With a beam, after extensive battles with Zone Fighter and Godzilla, starting the battle at a point when Wargilar was already on the ropes and had to be rescued by Spyler. Definitely not a melee victory OR a solo victory.
In fact, while 60s Godzilla has a solo-kill count of 4 (Mothra, Ebirah, at least 2 Kamacuras... and that's not counting Kumonga because of Minya's extremely-minimal assistance, Anguirus-by-melee because that's technically in the 50s, or the Giant Condor)- 70s Godzilla has a solo kill OR incapacity count of 0. Hedorah, Mechagodzilla 2, and Titonasaurus all required human intervention (or resources, in Hedorah's case), while Gigan, Megalon, Ghidorah, and Mechagodzilla 1 were all fought with assistance.
Inferno Rodan wrote: Comparing an already-dying Mothra and Kamacuras with the likes of Hedorah and Mechagodzilla is utterly absurd, and frankly grasping at straws.
No straws are being grasped, my good fellow. If you want to remove Mothra and the Kamacuras from the list, and continue discounting Kumonga, that's still one more solo victory than 70s has ever claimed. I am not comparing the power levels of the kaiju, just the demonstrated ability to handle a foe with only the resources the combatants in this match have at-hand.

That said, in terms of comparison, I'd suggest that a number of 70s foes- Megalon, MG2, Zandolla, Jellar, and possibly other ZF kaiju, Gigan, and/or Titanosaurus- were of equivalent durability levels to Ebirah, Kumonga, etc., and were not soloed by 70s any more than the juggernauts like Hedorah and MG1 were.

And more importantly, based on the cited durability for 60s and Rodan, I'd suggest that they have equal/greater durability than a number of those that 70s has failed to defeat without help.

Inferno Rodan wrote: Do you honestly think 60s Godzilla could have beaten any of those 70s foes without assistance? Or that 70s Godzilla couldn't kill those 60s foes?
Without assistance? No. But 60s is not without assistance in this battle. With the help that 70s had in each film, I think 60s could have taken most, if not all of 70s' foes. With a partner of equivalent strength (as GTTHM demonstrates) as well? The victories would be unquestionable.

And yes, 70s probably could take all of those foes. But the claim here is not that 70s is 60s' equal, but that he is vastly superior (particularly in melee), and definitely superior to this two-person combo. And Godzilla 70s has not been able to match the victories that this unit have achieved (unaided victory against King Ghidorah), nor has he individually achieved any solo, unaided victories (much less kills) as 60s has. The theoretical ability might be there, if he had a different opponent. But of the many opponents he faces, in the films and Zone Fighter, he has yet to score a victory without aid- a victory all on his own, as he would be here. It's just never happened. And if the answer to that is reducing his opponents to what you claim are far-weaker foes in order for him to achieve a victory, that doesn't make any points in 70s' favor.

Inferno Rodan wrote: Anguirus had no role whatsoever in Gigan's retreat in GvsG, unless for some bizarre reason you consider him knocking KG into Gigan as the most devastating blow Gigan took.
No, but it wasn't Godzilla's melee that put him into a retreat, either. (Also, side note- how absurd is it that Godzilla picks him up by literally hugging his buzzsaw, and Gigan just kind flails around trying to look helpless instead of turning it on and shredding Godzilla's face? Not relevant to the fight, that just struck me while reviewing the scene).

Gigan retreated because King Ghidorah retreated, and not as a direct result of any attack he took from Godzilla (as previously discussed). I can accept that Godzilla's beating certainly put him in the mood to consider retreat, and was not insubstantial. :) But it did not actually cause his retreat, nor put him in a place of being unable to fight back in any way that he couldn't come back from as easily as Godzilla did from his own earlier incapacity. The retreat was an option Gigan not choose to avail himself of until he saw that his backup was already fleeing; at best, we can call this an indirect result of Godzilla's combined melee and ray attacks as well as the accidental collateral from King Ghidorah, combined with a direct result of Ghidorah's actions. (But at the time 70s was finished meleeing with him, Gigan was still ready and in the fight).

Inferno Rodan wrote:Likewise no one helped him tear off Mechagodzilla's head in either film; King Caesar's rams really had no effect on the battle since MG was already subdued at that point anyway,
Godzilla was holding him in place while King Caesar tackled. MG was not in any way subdued by melee OR beam, he was just immobilized by Deus Ex Magnetism. :) The head-tear wasn't until after Mechagodzilla had been smashed up by multiple tag-team tackles visibly warping his carapace.

Inferno Rodan wrote: and Godzilla just flat out did it on his own in ToMG. Granted, the ToMG example wasn't technically a finisher, but against literally anything else it would have been.
But it arguably wouldn't have been possible on any other being that lacked seams and a rotating joint there. :)

Inferno Rodan wrote: The first of said victories was with a third partner that completely subdued KG with webbing, and the second was under questionable circumstances involving an alien plot. Only the third counts as a proper victory for them, and it was an extremely short and uneventful battle that KG almost immediately retreated from.
I'll grant that the first had an ally (though I'd debate the 'completely subdued' claim). For the second, we have no evidence that the fight was thrown- and the very basis of the plot seems to indicate that the aliens regarded Godzilla and Rodan a Ghidorah-stopping threat. Both the second and the third are legitimate victories- boulders half the size of Ghidorah's torso were being dropped on him to obvious effect, tackles were exchanged- and Ghidorah fled a confrontation that, as you put it, was not going his way. He chose to flee because he was losing to 60s and Rodan (else he would've fled earlier). He was defeated by their attack; that's the entire pointing of his running, in both cases.

Inferno Rodan wrote:One of 60s Godzilla's favorite things to do in battles is ineffectually chuck rocks.
In the battles with Ghidorah, at least, multiple of those rock-throws appear to have been quite effective. And Zone Fighter actually used a giant boulder to hurt 70s... though based on that scene, and vs. the Sea Monster, we may have read this battle all wrong. This may actually be an extended tennis match between the two Godzillas, until Rodan comes in and drops a rock the size of his torso to break things up. ;)
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
Inferno Rodan
Futurian
Posts: 3985
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Azur Lane

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Okay this discussion has become more tedious than entertaining now, so I'll just leave with these final points:

-60s Godzilla and Rodan failed to cause any harm to King Ghidorah in any of their battles, and in every battle King Ghidorah retreated as soon as it wasn't going his way (this includes GvsG) with the exception of DAM, which was the only time he was being controlled for the entire duration of the battle and thus couldn't retreat even if he wanted to. It amusing that Gigan is the one that's always called the coward when KG is a much worse offender.

-70s Godzilla regularly incapacitated foes with just a few blows, even if only temporarily. He was also strong enough to casually knock over opponents both heavier than himself and heavier than King Ghidorah. 60s Godzilla and Rodan were only capable of knocking King Ghidorah over when attacking in tandem or via a kamikaze tackle from Rodan that ended up hurting Rodan more than KG.

-70s Godzilla has proven capable of not only successfully fending off simultaneous attacks from opponents at least as (if not more) skilled in melee combat than 60s Godzilla and Rodan, but also capable of incapacitating (if only temporarily) said opponents in the process.

-The beating King Ghidorah took in a matter of seconds from 70s Godzilla after mind control was broken, even ignoring what Anguirus did, was worse than what caused him to retreat from Godzilla and Rodan in '65.

Thus, I stand by my stance that not only is 70s Godzilla superior to the combined power of 60s Godzilla and Rodan, but he also will not be overwhelmed by the two of them attacking him simultaneously.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

User avatar
Kiryu2012
Keizer
Posts: 7716
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:31 pm
Location: Here, there, anywhere!
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Kiryu2012 »

I pretty much agree with IR's points. I just don't see the duo beating the likes of 70's Godzilla.
My most wanted fight ever is Discord vs Bobobo-bo bo-bobo.
Godzilla has a regen like Wolverine, a skin like Luke Cage, a hero aura like Captain America, a strength like Hulk, an unstoppability like Juggernaut, an immortality like Deadpool.

There's a 'God' in Godzilla for a reason...
gigan72 wrote:
Kiryu2012 wrote:Stopped someone from committing suicide
Holy shit man.
My DA

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

If we're summing up, then I'd just reply the following:

-The idea that 60s and Rodan caused no harm is a completely unfounded notion; there is no evidence whatsoever that King Ghidorah did not take damage (and several times, like when Rodan drops the giant rock on him, that he very clearly did), and the idea that no damage was done ignores that A. How was the battle turning against him except that he was being harmed when previously he had not been? and B. Again, this notion could just as easily (and just as baselesly) be leveled at any of 70s' foes that ran away, equally gutting his combat record.

-70s Godzilla was also regularly incapacitated, temporarily. Rodan evidenced sufficient body strength to lift the aforementioned rock, and also, Godzilla himself. The strength of 60s and Rodan has been repeatedly evidenced in the preceding posts, and any 'temporary incapacities' being counted into the battle record work as equally against 70s as they do in his favor, as he has been incapacitated by his foes in the exact same way that he incapacitates them. Either way, 60s and Rodan have demonstrated the durability, without temporary incapacity, against both Ghidorah (for multiple rounds) and each-other in their days-long battle, to handle the kind of attack power that will be coming at them (especially since it will be coming one at a time).

-70s Godzilla has proven capable of fending off attacks from multiple attackers about 50% of the time, holding them at bay until he could be rescued, and has been beaten into helpless the other 50% of the time. He has never been able to turn a 2-on-1 into a victory, only a holding action awaiting rescue (which will not come in this case). His best showing, vs. Gigan and Megalon, appears to have been the duo playing possum to lure him into a trap rather than an actual victory (or, at best, they both woke up at extremely convenient times, are incredibly quick-thinking and reacting upon awakening, and were not incapacitated long enough for Godzilla to have actually capitalized on that before they were back in battle against him again).

- It is a subjective and unfounded claim that KG took a worse beating, considering that this beating did not cause him to flee, while the beating 60s and Rodan delivered to a strong KG in '65 did. The choreography was better, sure, but the actual amount of damage done required an addition from Anguirus and a good number more of hits in order to achieve the same result that 60s and Rodan did.


Thus, I stand by my stance that 70s Godzilla is a fighter whose melee ability is insufficient to actually down any of his foes without help, who has repeatedly proven to be overwhelmed by a 2-on-1 attack, and who is facing a greater attack power in 60s and Rodan than is being reckoned them. Even his beam (which is about as seldom-used as 60s is, averaging in the Zone Fighter appearances) is not sufficient to turn that tide, especially when one of his two opponents is immune.

70s has a killer reputation, and with a partner he lives up to every inch of it, but on his own as he is here, the evidence does not give him the capacities that are being claimed for him. Both the films and Zone Fighter episodes show this; a 2-on-1 melee will not turn out in his favor, especially with the mitigating factors of the strength, endurance, and beam-immunity (for one of them) that surround the other team.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
Inferno Rodan
Futurian
Posts: 3985
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Azur Lane

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Not getting into another debate on the matter, but...
Zarm wrote:It is a subjective and unfounded claim that KG took a worse beating, considering that this beating did not cause him to flee, while the beating 60s and Rodan delivered to a strong KG in '65 did.
The beating from 70's Godzilla did cause him to flee, though. And it's not subjective or unfounded that it was worse, either. He had his entire body weight (30,000 tons) slammed against the ground 3 times in rapid succession, followed by having one of his necks stomped on so hard he started spitting blood (this last bit alone is more damage than he suffered in either '64 or '65). The worst hit he took in '65 was when Rodan, carrying Godzilla (combined weight of 35,000 tons), tackled him, which resulted in him fleeing after they tumbled down the mountainside into the water.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Zarm »

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Zarm wrote:It is a subjective and unfounded claim that KG took a worse beating, considering that this beating did not cause him to flee, while the beating 60s and Rodan delivered to a strong KG in '65 did.
The beating from 70's Godzilla did cause him to flee, though. And it's not subjective or unfounded that it was worse, either. He had his entire body weight (30,000 tons) slammed against the ground 3 times in rapid succession, followed by having one of his necks stomped on so hard he started spitting blood (this last bit alone is more damage than he suffered in either '64 or '65). The worst hit he took in '65 was when Rodan, carrying Godzilla (combined weight of 35,000 tons), tackled him, which resulted in him fleeing after they tumbled down the mountainside into the water.
But he did not flee until after Godzilla and Anguirus had further tag-teamed him. His retreat wasn't from Godzilla's attack alone; as is the case with all of 70s' victories. They aren't achieved on his lonesome.

And I agree that there was greater visible external damage with the blood in this film, but I think you're mistaking the amount of damage suffered with the amount of damage it appears to you that he's been dealt, or given external signs. 70s is disabled, bloodlessly, for several minutes by the Tower barrage, while the geyser of blood from his arm when Gigan does a flyby does not knock him out. One generates a greater external *sign* of damage, but the actual results from the hits taken demonstrate that the greater damage was taken from the barrage. In a similar manner, yeah, spitting blood looks pretty bad- but the question of actual results from damage is not determined by what looks worse, but by results.

In '65, a stronger Ghidorah took about 8 hits (by your count) and was forced into retreat by it. (Don't have a count on the earlier planet X battle). In '72, he was thrown around, bled from the mouth, tackle-hit by a spiny dinosaur... but it took all of those things (and I am assuming, again without a count, equal to or more than 8 hits) to cause him to retreat. For all that these attacks appear more devastating (and again, better choreography, I freely admit), the actual results necessary to achieve the same thing (actually, to achieve slightly lesser, on the basis of a weaker Ghidorah) demonstrate that the '8' hits 60s and Rodan delivered were equal to the beating that 70s delivered plus the finisher with Rodan's help. Unless Ghidorah is given arbitrarily different conditions for choosing when to turn and run, which is not supported by the films.

As with the example of 70s downing Megalon, the choreography doesn't always make a lot of sense with producing the result- but the actual result is clearly intended to be the canonical take-away. A punch may not look great, but if it knocks the other kaiju out, it was clearly intended to demonstrate great power, even if the actual suit-performance and choreography let that down. The same applies here, unless we're going to go through every kaiju movie and throw out the results of fights where the attacks don't look to us like they should've done the damage they did.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
Inferno Rodan
Futurian
Posts: 3985
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Azur Lane

Re: King of Showa R4 - Godzilla '60s & Rodan vs. Godzilla '70s

Post by Inferno Rodan »

This "weaker Ghidorah" nonsense needs to stop, by the way. He wasn't weaker at all in GvsG; only less aggressive. His strength and durability feats are easily equivalent to earlier appearances. This isn't specifically directed at you Zarm, btw. It's just a general statement because I've seen it from other people too.
"The rantings of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening." - Grigori, Dragon's Dogma

Post Reply