Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

[Ganimes_Is_Valid]

Before you ask, yes this is about the anime trilogy. So about a month or so ago. I finally sat down and watched the Godzilla anime trilogy. Overall I really enjoyed it. Definitely a breath of fresh air after the loud obnoxious spectacle that was King of the Monsters. Was it perfect? Absolutely not. In fact I think the anime trilogy would have worked better as an anime series. Because they clearly didn't have enough time to fully explore the politics of the three races aboard the Aratrum. Or fully develop the characters and their interpersonal relationships. But good god(zilla) does Planet Eater have one of the best endings iv'e ever seen. Especially when compared to most of Toho's recent offerings.

All that said. It's been quite shocking to me, that after prowling a couple forums. And watching reviews by the few youtube "personalities" that bother to cover Godzilla films. That the biggest complaint that most people have is a lack of monster fights? And apparently the lack of others monsters besides Godzilla? Like your biggest complaint isn't Martin Lazzari's annual 30 minute exposition dump. Or the female characters only existing so Haruo has something to save/impregnate. It's the fact that you didn't get to see Godzilla have a slap fight with Maguma?

I'm sorry if this sounds condescending or outright dickish. It just boggles my mind that in a trilogy whose main issue is having too much material and too little time to explore it. Is people thinking, that what it needed...was more stuff!!! Especially when monster fights for the sake of monster fights would just get in the way of the anime's main narrative. Which is about Haruo's desire to kill Godzilla and how much he's willing to sacrifice to achieve that goal. I just don't see how Godzilla slap fighting the Giant Condor really adds to that narrative.

So are the monster fights really that important to you guys? Personally iv'e always found monster fights to be pretty boring in these films. Hence the King of the Monsters shade at the start. It's the main reason I don't like 90 percent of Godzilla's films. Because most of them treat him as the main character. Instead of using him to elevate the story of the human characters like the original 1954 film or Shin Godzilla. It's why I think the anime trilogy is so refreshing. Because it keeps it's focus solely on Haruo and never forgets that he's the main character.

Haruo's moral dilemma with the nanometal at the end of City on the Edge of Battle is so much more engaging than watching the 50th slap fight between Godzilla & MechaGodzilla. Same with the end of Planet Eater. The focus is kept solely on Haruo and his relationship with Metphies. Because who needs to see Godzilla slap fight Ghidorah for the 60th time?

TL;DR Mindless Monster on Monster action isn't enough to get me invested in a movie, especially when the human cast is lacking. And I just wanted to know if maybe it was the same for some of you.

[BlankAccount]

Obviously there is more to Godzilla than fights, which is part of why it's obnoxious when people say "you're just here for the monster fights" when you criticize a movie's story, characters, plot holes or execution. In fact, let's add monster fights to that list, while they aren't everything they are still part of the series and are deserving of just as much praise or criticism as anything else. You put a crummy fight in your movie, yeah I'm gonna say it sucked just as I would say your characters suck if you put in crummy characters.

[Spuro]

My main complaint isn't necessarily "monster fights," but rather that the anime trilogy sets up a lot of cool, new interesting ideas, but fails to execute them in ways I find interesting or appealing.

To use a brief example: The new aliens, with motivations and personalities that are inherently more interesting than previous aliens in the franchise. There's a lot you could do with them, but the trilogy instead chooses to revert both alien species back to the same old conquerors we've seen before.

[Terasawa]

Obviously there is more to Godzilla than fights, which is part of why it's obnoxious when people say "you're just here for the monster fights" when you criticize a movie's story, characters, plot holes or execution. In fact, let's add monster fights to that list, while they aren't everything they are still part of the series and are deserving of just as much praise or criticism as anything else. You put a crummy fight in your movie, yeah I'm gonna say it sucked just as I would say your characters suck if you put in crummy characters.

I agree, we shouldn't let a bad monster fight slide, but I don't think a monster fight is nearly as important to the overall quality of a film as any of the other elements you mentioned, not to mention even more important criteria.

[BlankAccount]

My main complaint isn't necessarily "monster fights," but rather that the anime trilogy sets up a lot of cool, new interesting ideas, but fails to execute them in ways I find interesting or appealing.

To use a brief example: The new aliens, with motivations and personalities that are inherently more interesting than previous aliens in the franchise. There's a lot you could do with them, but the trilogy instead chooses to revert both alien species back to the same old conquerors we've seen before.

Yeah the premise was cool, but the actual execution? Not so much. I'll admit I found the characters meh in the first two movies and the fight in Mechagodzilla City honestly saved the second movie for me. By the third film I actively went from finding the characters to be meh to just hating them, especially Haruo.

I agree, we shouldn't let a bad monster fight slide, but I don't think a monster fight is nearly as important to the overall quality of a film as any of the other elements you mentioned, not to mention even more important criteria.

I think when you promise an epic "fight" in the third anime film and it ends up being a non-fight, yeah it's worth criticizing as bad. To quote a former friend "what fight?" The confrontation with Mechagodzilla City was more of a fight than the one sided-reverse one sided scuffle with Flying Spaghetti I mean Noodle Ghidorah. I'm gonna be hard on it cause it they made a bid deal about it and pretty much made it sound like that's what the movie was about, this big "fight" as if it's the most important thing.

Heck I will go so far as to say the fight with the Super-X in ROG was more of a fight. At least Round 2.

[Terasawa]

I agree, we shouldn't let a bad monster fight slide, but I don't think a monster fight is nearly as important to the overall quality of a film as any of the other elements you mentioned, not to mention even more important criteria.

I think when you promise an epic "fight" in the third anime film and it ends up being a non-fight, yeah it's worth criticizing as bad. To quote a former friend "what fight?" The confrontation with Mechagodzilla City was more of a fight than the one sided-reverse one sided scuffle with Flying Spaghetti I mean Noodle Ghidorah. I'm gonna be hard on it cause it they made a bid deal about it and pretty much made it sound like that's what the movie was about, this big "fight" as if it's the most important thing.

Heck I will go so far as to say the fight with the Super-X in ROG was more of a fight. At least Round 2.

I honestly don't recall an "epic fight" being promised in TPE.

You seemed to miss my point, anyway, that bad monster fights should be criticized. I was in agreement with you. However, I think muh fights are far from the most important of criteria.

[BlankAccount]

I agree, we shouldn't let a bad monster fight slide, but I don't think a monster fight is nearly as important to the overall quality of a film as any of the other elements you mentioned, not to mention even more important criteria.

I think when you promise an epic "fight" in the third anime film and it ends up being a non-fight, yeah it's worth criticizing as bad. To quote a former friend "what fight?" The confrontation with Mechagodzilla City was more of a fight than the one sided-reverse one sided scuffle with Flying Spaghetti I mean Noodle Ghidorah. I'm gonna be hard on it cause it they made a bid deal about it and pretty much made it sound like that's what the movie was about, this big "fight" as if it's the most important thing.

Heck I will go so far as to say the fight with the Super-X in ROG was more of a fight. At least Round 2.

I honestly don't recall an "epic fight" being promised in TPE.

You seemed to miss my point, anyway, that bad monster fights should be criticized. I was in agreement with you. However, I think muh fights are far from the most important of criteria.

They did promise it in an interview actually. No I understood what you were saying, and I know you were agreeing. With the COTEOB example I gave I was pointing out that fights can save a bad movie and make it still enjoyable instead of unbearable. Fights aren't the most important thing, but they can still save a bad movie's ass if they are good or fun. Much the same way Godzilla's death in the last 5 minutes of Godzilla vs Destroyer save it. I like that movie but man is it heavily flawed.

[Gigantis]

If your film promises a monster fight and it plays a big part of this movie, then yes these things ARE important. Yes, good human drama and kaiju personalities and designs are more important, but i didn't think this trilogy had any of that either.

Admittedly Planet Eater never really promised a fight, but it was pretty clear Godzilla and Ghidorah were gonna come into conflict. They could've at least made it less slow going.

[Destoroyah of Worlds]

Yes. They are very important.

[Ganimes_Is_Valid]

My main complaint isn't necessarily "monster fights," but rather that the anime trilogy sets up a lot of cool, new interesting ideas, but fails to execute them in ways I find interesting or appealing.

To use a brief example: The new aliens, with motivations and personalities that are inherently more interesting than previous aliens in the franchise. There's a lot you could do with them, but the trilogy instead chooses to revert both alien species back to the same old conquerors we've seen before.

Yeah I get that. The Exif and the Bilusaludo definitely needed a bit more development. Hence my opinion that the anime trilogy should have been an anime series. You won't get any argument from me that the anime fumbles the execution of its interesting ideas.

But I don't know if it's "Fair" to call them conquerors. The Exif want to sacrifice the planet to Eldritch Horror Ghidorah. And the Bilusaludo seemed perfectly willing to live in peace with humanity, until they saw the full potential of their Nanometal. And even when they became "corrupted" both figuratively and quite literally by the Nanometal, they offered to share their "boon" with mankind.

Like I agree that the aliens being antagonists is a pretty old trope, especially for this franchise. But they needed some way to generate conflict, outside of just Godzilla itself. And it's much more interesting to have the different races come into conflict with each other as their personal agendas overlap. Then to have the trilogy be 6 hours of the United Earth throwing water balloons at Godzilla.

Added in 59 minutes 34 seconds:

If your film promises a monster fight and it plays a big part of this movie, then yes these things ARE important. Yes, good human drama and kaiju personalities and designs are more important, but i didn't think this trilogy had any of that either.

Admittedly Planet Eater never really promised a fight, but it was pretty clear Godzilla and Ghidorah were gonna come into conflict. They could've at least made it less slow going.

I agree with you on the first point. If the film is being sold on a fight, then the fight has to be good. Shame most of the Godzilla Vs films fail on that front, but! That's a topic for a different thread. I can understand having trouble getting invested in the human drama, because Haruo's relationships with the other characters are underdeveloped. But you really didn't like the Kaiju designs? I think Godzilla Earth is one of the best designs the character has ever had. And Ghidorah don't look half bad either. Of course this is coming from someone who thinks all the Ghidorah designs, aside from the Showa & GMK ones are kinda ehh. So maybe i'm not the person to judge.

Honestly I feel like a fight between Godzilla Earth & Anime Ghidorah would have been super hard to justify and really difficult to make exciting. Not only does Godzilla's enormous size make him easily the slowest incarnation of the character. But Ghidorah is an Eldritch Horror in the anime. A 4th dimensional being intruding on a 3rd dimensional universe. Godzilla maybe be the avatar of the Earth itself. But what is the avatar of one planet, to a being that has consumed countless.

Besides, the film makes it pretty clear that the confrontation between Godzilla and Ghidorah is meant to mirror the confrontation between Haruo and his "best friend" Metphies. The "fight" itself really only serving as a physical metaphor for Haruo & Metphies's battle of ideals. Which is why as soon as Haruo overcomes Metphies, Godzilla does the same to Ghidorah.

Honestly there's something really fascinating about Haruo & Godzilla; sworn enemies, made equals when faced with a being that neither can comprehend. Their conflict of the Humanity versus the Earth itself made entirely irrelevant, by an invader who views both as a light snack. You know the more I talk about the anime trilogy, the more I realize just how much wasted potential the series had.

[Desghidorah]

Problem is, for me, film is an entertainment media. If I am not entertained, I'm not going to care nearly as much for what the movie is trying to say about what morality. If the characters I find dull, underdeveloped, or unlikable, then entertaining action scenes are a way to try and keep my attention and endearment. This is something many Showa films and GvsMegaguirus suffered from, where the human plot could be lackluster; but the monster action was enough for me to consider it worth my attention. And I mean action as a whole, not just fights. But the anime trilogy routinely has, in my mind, very poor action with very lethargic, barely functioning kaiju whom rely on beam-spam and sheer size to do the action; and even then it's extremely little. Yes I can appreciate the symbolism of Haruo vs. Metphis paralleling Godzilla vs. Ghidorah... and yet I just can't bring myself to care nearly as much as barely anything actually happens. And the fact it was an anime medium, where safety for stunt actors and miniature costs wouldn't be an issue, one can get away with a lot more. Polygon has done good action scenes before, so the lack of such and a Godzilla that makes 1954 Godzilla look like a friggin ballerina is facepalm worthy.

[Vakanai]

I think Godzilla Earth is one of the best designs the character has ever had.

Agreed largely. His face is a little odd at times when seen head on, but otherwise it's one of my favorites. Up there with Legendary's.

I agree with the thought that fights aren't the end all be all - but in the anime's case more and better fights would have helped, because it was pretty boring. It didn't have enough going for it.

[Ganimes_Is_Valid]

Problem is, for me, film is an entertainment media. If I am not entertained, I'm not going to care nearly as much for what the movie is trying to say about what morality. If the characters I find dull, underdeveloped, or unlikable, then entertaining action scenes are a way to try and keep my attention and endearment. This is something many Showa films and GvsMegaguirus suffered from, where the human plot could be lackluster; but the monster action was enough for me to consider it worth my attention. And I mean action as a whole, not just fights. But the anime trilogy routinely has, in my mind, very poor action with very lethargic, barely functioning kaiju whom rely on beam-spam and sheer size to do the action; and even then it's extremely little. Yes I can appreciate the symbolism of Haruo vs. Metphis paralleling Godzilla vs. Ghidorah... and yet I just can't bring myself to care nearly as much as barely anything actually happens. And the fact it was an anime medium, where safety for stunt actors and miniature costs wouldn't be an issue, one can get away with a lot more. Polygon has done good action scenes before, so the lack of such and a Godzilla that makes 1954 Godzilla look like a friggin ballerina is facepalm worthy.

Dude I get you, 100 percent. Honestly this thread wasn't suppose to me playing devil's advocate for the anime trilogy. It was more about me expressing my confusion about the lack of monsters/fights being the main complaint from people online. And not he myriad of other issues the trilogy suffers from. It's like walking into a burning house and pointing out that the faucet is leaking. Like, is that really out biggest concern at the moment?

Honestly I feel like Polygon Pictures being the animation team is probably the reason there wasn't a greater variety of Kaiju in the series. Polygon is absolutely one of the best 3D studios in the business and you know they don't come cheap. And with the anime placing it's focus on the humanoid characters, that's probably where a majority of the modeling budget went. Between the Humans,Aliens & Houtua, that's allot of models. And not a single one was cheap. Hell that's probably why there are so few environments in the series. The Aratrum, Houtua Village, Mecha G City, Forest, Cliffs. That's only five environments, across all three films. For Godzilla's Sake the full King Ghidorah model is just a modified version of the Servum model. You also have to take into account that this trilogy was the first project of Toho's still relatively new animation department.

Now if the series had been animated in 2D, maybe things would be a little different. 2D is a medium that is truly limitless...well almost anyway. But 3D? Everything from the Characters to the Environments comes with a price tag.

I agree with you on the "fight" scenes, even though it's clear that those are only suppose to demonstrate how powerful Godzilla. Like I get it, but you can only watch someone beat their head against a wall for so long. It's not that Polygon couldn't animate better action scenes. It's just that this Godzilla's size & weight doesn't lend itself well to high octane action. He's built like a tank and fights like one too.

[Kaltes-Herzeleid]

Obviously there is more to Godzilla than fights, which is part of why it's obnoxious when people say "you're just here for the monster fights" when you criticize a movie's story, characters, plot holes or execution. In fact, let's add monster fights to that list, while they aren't everything they are still part of the series and are deserving of just as much praise or criticism as anything else. You put a crummy fight in your movie, yeah I'm gonna say it sucked just as I would say your characters suck if you put in crummy characters.

I agree, we shouldn't let a bad monster fight slide, but I don't think a monster fight is nearly as important to the overall quality of a film as any of the other elements you mentioned, not to mention even more important criteria.

Agreed. I find the over the top fixation that some fans have on kaiju fights to be a bit detrimental on how movies in the franchise are rated and perceived as a whole. Not that I don't think the fights aren't important or aren't a key appeal of the series, they are and there's nothing wrong with that. But the fact that there are people who act like if the movie isn't just two hours of kaiju beating each other up it's a bad movie is, well, in my opinion incredibly childish and I don't think those people should be taken all that seriously.

Basically what I'm getting at is that kaiju fights should be looked at as one piece of the greater whole, not its defining characteristic.

[Blinder16]

I know that the explanation is overused to justify plot holes and other issues, but to be honest... we're here for the monster fights. Or at least, that's what I'm here for!

[GojiDog]

They are important in that the fights are usually what the movie is promising.

That said, I don't want Godzilla fights to turn into something that gets judged on star ratings, like online wrestling fans do to wrestling matches (I hate that by the way).

I like to look at the Godzilla films where he's fighting another monster as kind of like a Rocky movie. The fight at the end is more often than not, worth the wait, but I expect the lead in to it to have me hooked. The Rocky (and Creed) movies have basically mastered this as most of the time, when that bell rings to start the fight, I am fully emotionally invested and I've probably cried once or twice before then, and now I'm ready for the big payoff.

Star Wars also kind of works here. We know we're getting a Lightsaber duel at the end of these (for the Skywalker episodes anyway). We've been trained to think that way. But I expect to enjoy the ride getting there. Episode 1 has a dazzling, stunt filled fight that people still talk about to this day...its just a shame that getting to that point was a drag. Now Empire Strikes Back? Return of the Jedi? I am fully onboard when the blades go snap hiss and its time to start swinging. Fun was had, tears were shed, and arcs were achieved along the way, and it all leads to that final fight.

Now it isn't often I've cried at a Godzilla movie, but the same principle applies. I know the climax is usually going to be a wild monster mash spectacle. Its ultimately what I'm there for, but I want to have fun and get hooked in along the way. Sometimes that's done through zany sci-fi antics like time traveling (Godzilla Vs. King Ghidorah), sometimes its by some social/political message on display (Mothra Vs. Godzilla), sometimes its with a strong human drama (Godzilla Vs. Monster Zero), and sometimes its a mix of all of those (Godzilla Vs. Biollante). And then there are other Godzilla movies where the big fight is fun, but getting there is an absolute chore, like Godzilla Vs. Megalon. To me, its the lead ins to the fight that separate my favorite Godzilla movies from my least favorites.

The fight is the circus tent attraction that lures us in, but I'd like to enjoy the ride getting there.

[Kaltes-Herzeleid]

The fight is the circus tent attraction that lures us in, but I'd like to enjoy the ride getting there.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Creating a genuinely enjoyable cinematic experience all around is just as important and I'm baffled by the number of people who dismiss that while still claiming to be fans of the franchise.

[CrimsonBloodX]

In my opinion, no, they are not important. The Return of Godzilla didn't need another monster to battle Godzilla, and that movie ended up becoming one of my top favorite films in the series. Shin Godzilla was also a solo movie that got praise from both critics and fans with nobody being disappointed that there were no other monsters for Godzilla to fight.

But when we heard of all the monsters that were going to be in Planet of the Monsters, we were expecting at least a few good fights featuring monsters that we haven't seen in a long time, like Dogora and Dagahra. The closest we got, however, was Hedorah's battle with Anguirus and Rodan in Beijing, China, that we only saw the aftermath of during the opening credits. When we heard of Mechagodzilla being in City on the Edge of Battle, we were expecting an awesome showdown between Godzilla and Mechagodzilla. Instead, we got a nanometal city fighting Godzilla.

[Desghidorah]

Yes they are, but not quite for the reasons some would suppose. Basically they are to give variety and a sense of dynamics to the action which would quickly get repetitive if there were nothing but solo outings. Only so many times you can have people running and gunning at the monsters before it gets tedious or repetitive. They're the star attraction to hook us into a movie and then enjoy the rest that is there.

[edgaguirus]

They can be. A fight can't save a film with a poor plot, acting, script, etc., and a poor fight, like in Space Amoeba disappoints. A monster fight works best when you have a good story and developed characters, and the monster fight provides an action piece to liven it up.