Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by gottatalktothefake »

My hierarchy of enjoyment is:

Fights >>>>>> Characters >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Themea
GojiSquid wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:58 am TBF if a movie has a sex scene without a monster mash, then is it really a graveyard smash?

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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by phantomsdaydreams »

Monster Presence (Literal on-screen representation and/or being very present in character motivations and story decisions)>>>>>Ideas>>>>>>Monster fights>>>>>Story>>>>>Characters>>>>>Everything else

What matters most to me is that A monster is present and they're important to the plot (ex.solo films, right?) Fights are not everything by a long shot, no....but we all love them and while the human characters are important for plot purposes, they're largely expendable (though being more than pleasant or fun is great as well, obviously).
Last edited by phantomsdaydreams on Sat May 01, 2021 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Desghidorah »

Movies are entertainment media. To get a good message across, something needs to be engaging and or entertaining. While it might sound a bit low brow, entertainment is just as important in endearing an audience to a character or concept as much as engaging themes or dynamics between characters. And, appealing to an inner child is a genuine way to make something stick.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Vakanai »

After KotM and GvsK, I still think fights are important, but much, much, much less important than decent scripts, good acting, and better direction.
Holy cow the last couple MV movies really dumbed things down.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by GodzillaRangerPrime »

No they’re not

You could make a damn good Godzilla/ monster movie without needing them to fight another monster.
KingKaiju wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:15 pm Depends on the film. Is it designed around the monster fights? Then sure! But it comes back to that. The folks who go "GodZiLLa iS JUst aBOut Da fIGhtS!!" are usually people who can't get through one page of a book, and think critics have a hidden agenda.
Yeah, seriously.
It’s such a cringe take.
Last edited by GodzillaRangerPrime on Sat May 15, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Thatguy4683 »

Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Vakanai »

Thatguy4683 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
I didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.
I unapologetically, wholeheartedly, and without a doubt hate Godzilla vs Kong.

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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Jermobooka »

Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:21 pm
Thatguy4683 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
I didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.
Not just the redeeming feature, the fights, Kaiju, and action are the entire point of the MV, which i and many others love. We have the newer TOHO films for experimentation, narrative, and character focuses, and the MV for good ‘ol giant monster brawls and plain-old colorful blockbuster fun.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Thatguy4683 »

Jermobooka wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pm
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:21 pm
Thatguy4683 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
I didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.
Not just the redeeming feature, the fights, Kaiju, and action are the entire point of the MV, which i and many others love. We have the newer TOHO films for experimentation, narrative, and character focuses, and the MV for good ‘ol giant monster brawls and plain-old colorful blockbuster fun.
Entirely agree dude
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Terasawa »

Jermobooka wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pm narrative, and character focuses
So, some of the basic and fundamental elements of storytelling...
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Jermobooka »

Terasawa wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:44 pm
Jermobooka wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pm narrative, and character focuses
So, some of the basic and fundamental elements of storytelling...
When i say “narrative and character focuses” i mean things like Shin Gojira and the Polygon Trilogy. Both of those have a lot more focus on the characters than the kaiju, for better (Shin) and for worse (Polygon)

I mean “Fight/kaiju focus” to be more along the lines of KOTM and GvK
Last edited by Jermobooka on Sat May 15, 2021 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Vakanai »

Jermobooka wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pm
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:21 pm
Thatguy4683 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:19 pm Yes and No, let me explain if you have a very well made story then the fight doesn’t really matter, but if you have a mediocre story then yes The fights really do matter, I think that’s what carries the Monsterverse, sure their stories aren’t really that well crafted but the action is amazing and you could forget all of the questionable writing
I didn't forget. But agreed, the MV fight scenes are the redeeming feature of that franchise at this point.
Not just the redeeming feature, the fights, Kaiju, and action are the entire point of the MV, which i and many others love. We have the newer TOHO films for experimentation, narrative, and character focuses, and the MV for good ‘ol giant monster brawls and plain-old colorful blockbuster fun.
Disagree - the MV's entire point wasn't just the CGI kaiju brawls until these last two movies. G14 and Kong: Skull Island also focused on plots and characterization as well. But the last two movies dropped all that, and sadly not for the better. But you cannot argue that the MV was always just about the monster brawls and nothing else.

Added in 3 minutes 39 seconds:
Jermobooka wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:48 pm
Terasawa wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:44 pm
Jermobooka wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pm narrative, and character focuses
So, some of the basic and fundamental elements of storytelling...
When i say “narrative and character focuses” i mean things like Shin Gojira and the Polygon Trilogy. Both of those have a lot more focus on the characters than the kaiju, for better (Shin) and for worse (Polygon)

I mean “Fight/kaiju focus” to be more along the lines of KOTM and GvK
But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Terasawa »

KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)
Spoiler:
Serizawa, Lind, and Simmons were the three characters who apparently suffered the most from this.
Last edited by Terasawa on Sat May 15, 2021 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Jermobooka »

Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm
Disagree - the MV's entire point wasn't just the CGI kaiju brawls until these last two movies. G14 and Kong: Skull Island also focused on plots and characterization as well. But the last two movies dropped all that, and sadly not for the better. But you cannot argue that the MV was always just about the monster brawls and nothing else.
I meant more that, the “action/kaiju” focus is where the MV is now and will likely continue to go, but not so much as GvK.
Vakanai wrote: But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
I doubt the direction of GvK is gonna continue. The reason GvK had very little in terms of story and characters with a fuck ton of spectacle was because Wingard knew most audiences just wanted to see cool fights between two cinematic icons, which he delivered

Now that the big crossover is out of the way, i’m certain the MV will be going back to more of how KOTM and K:SI were. Characters/story of K:SI mixed with the badass fight style and choreography of GvK would be the absolute happiest medium IMO
Last edited by Jermobooka on Sat May 15, 2021 5:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by eabaker »

Terasawa wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)
Spoiler:
Serizawa, Lind, and Simmons were the three characters who apparently suffered the most from this.
I think Vakanai was using both "narrative" and "character" to modify "focus." So, not saying, "it had no narrative, and no character focus;" but rather, "it had no narrative focus, and no character focus."

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by eabaker on Sat May 15, 2021 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

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eabaker wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:14 pm
Terasawa wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)
Spoiler:
Serizawa, Lind, and Simmons were the three characters who apparently suffered the most from this.
I think Vakanai was using both "narrative" and "character" to modify "focus." So, not saying, "it had no narrative, and no character focus;" but rather, "it had no narrative focus, and no character focus."

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Oops, yeah, probably so. Not been a banner day for me around here.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Vakanai »

Terasawa wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)
Spoiler:
Serizawa, Lind, and Simmons were the three characters who apparently suffered the most from this.
...dramatic film? GvK wasn't a dramatic film. Maybe you watched the wrong movie? GvK is the one where the big lizard fights the big monkey. Oh, not the one with the Rock in it!

Joking aside, no. There's no way that gutting basic storytelling like characterization was to this movie's credit. It was the dumbest Godzilla to date. It's also the film with the best action/fighting to date too.

Added in 5 minutes 38 seconds:
Jermobooka wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:35 pm
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm
Disagree - the MV's entire point wasn't just the CGI kaiju brawls until these last two movies. G14 and Kong: Skull Island also focused on plots and characterization as well. But the last two movies dropped all that, and sadly not for the better. But you cannot argue that the MV was always just about the monster brawls and nothing else.
I meant more that, the “action/kaiju” focus is where the MV is now and will likely continue to go, but not so much as GvK.
Vakanai wrote: But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
I doubt the direction of GvK is gonna continue. The reason GvK had very little in terms of story and characters with a skreeonk ton of spectacle was because Wingard knew most audiences just wanted to see cool fights between two cinematic icons, which he delivered

Now that the big crossover is out of the way, i’m certain the MV will be going back to more of how KOTM and K:SI were. Characters/story of K:SI mixed with the badass fight style and choreography of GvK would be the absolute happiest medium IMO
You're right, that is where the MV is now. And for me, this is not a good development. Some of us like stories to go with out giant monster mayhem. Some fans may be overjoyed with this change, but I'm not. It's disappointing.
And while I wish "not so much as GvK" were true, if anything I suspect future movies will be worse on this front.

He did deliver that - and it did so well during a pandemic I've no reason at all to think that future films will inject attempts at storytelling in it again. If anything I see them doubling down on this direction. It will no longer be films you watch, but fight scenes you wait for someone to upload onto Youtube because that's all that matters now. I don't see it going back to G14 or K:SI any time soon.

Added in 1 minute 39 seconds:
(Not to be a downer, a film that combined K:SI's storytelling and GvK's action would be the happiest thing for me too - but I don't see that happening...)
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by shadowgigan »

Of course monster fights are important lmao. Monster fights are basically the justification for this franchise's existence. Human characters will always be secondary to me. However, good human characters will also elevate a film for me.

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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Terasawa »

Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:32 pm Joking aside, no. There's no way that gutting basic storytelling like characterization was to this movie's credit. It was the dumbest Godzilla to date. It's also the film with the best action/fighting to date too.
I just really don't think an extra half hour or more explaining why
Spoiler:
Ren Serizawa hates his dad or another second of Bernie and that group
would have made the movie all that much better. So I'm content with a two-hour film mostly devoid of substance. I found it so much more entertaining than KotM and enjoyed it considerably more than KSI, too. I don't think it was a good movie but it was an entertaining one. So for me, yes, that was absolutely to the film's benefit.
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Re: Are Monster Fights Really That Important?

Post by Vakanai »

eabaker wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:14 pm
Terasawa wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 pm KotM was pretty interested in exploring its characters' motivations and trying to develop them over the course of the film. It just did it very poorly.
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:21 pm But GvK has no narrative nor character focus, it's just dumb action only. There's is such a thing as a happy medium, and the first two MV films had that. Even King of the Monsters played empty lip service to it. But it's all gone now.
99.9% of all dramatic films have a narrative and GvK is no different. It also had some slight characterization (again, like nearly every dramatic film ever made...), but a lot of it was seemingly gutted to make way for more monsters. (Probably to the movie's credit.)
Spoiler:
Serizawa, Lind, and Simmons were the three characters who apparently suffered the most from this.
I think Vakanai was using both "narrative" and "character" to modify "focus." So, not saying, "it had no narrative, and no character focus;" but rather, "it had no narrative focus, and no character focus."

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Basically yes. Technically you can't do a scripted story with characters without a narrative or characterization, but here that was not given a focus.

Added in 5 minutes 28 seconds:
Terasawa wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:40 pm
Vakanai wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:32 pm Joking aside, no. There's no way that gutting basic storytelling like characterization was to this movie's credit. It was the dumbest Godzilla to date. It's also the film with the best action/fighting to date too.
I just really don't think an extra half hour or more explaining why
Spoiler:
Ren Serizawa hates his dad or another second of Bernie and that group
would have made the movie all that much better. So I'm content with a two-hour film mostly devoid of substance. I found it so much more entertaining than KotM and enjoyed it considerably more than KSI, too. I don't think it was a good movie but it was an entertaining one. So for me, yes, that was absolutely to the film's benefit.
If that was the characterization/plot gutted, agreed. But that's not what I meant. I wasn't talking so much about what got cut in filming or editing, I meant the script/plot itself was written without a care for narrative or characterization, and the direction doubled down on that. There should have been better stuff written in and provided for. It was gutted before filming began. The gutting was part of the process. All to dumb the movie down. And god(zilla) damn it, it worked for the GA.

Added in 45 seconds:
Also, if you enjoyed it more than K:SI we couldn't be more different...

Added in 1 minute 25 seconds:
If I were to rank these movies: K:SI > G14 >>> KotM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GvK.
I unapologetically, wholeheartedly, and without a doubt hate Godzilla vs Kong.

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