How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, the Godzilla anime trilogy and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Gojirawars 03 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:58 am

Literally just make movies out of the much better in-universe novels.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby kamilleblu » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:11 am

Living Corpse wrote:Stop and seriously think what does or can work in a Godzilla movie, and what doesn't or can't. There's things that haven't been done that can work in a Godzilla film that would be easier and then there's things like the concept of existential crisis (see Ghost in the Shell) that doesn't really mesh well with the kaiju genera. It might be doable, but I feel it's really hard, the closest example I can think of is Katsura's angst on being a cyborg in TOMG.

Why doesn't a Ghost in the Shell-like direction work? It's closer in nature to the origins of the series than monster wrestling. Most of the franchise is monster wrestling. Can't Toho take a short break for a limited release? Yeah, Monster Planet was a mistake. The world-building is the only thing of value in it and that could have easily been sprinkled into its sequel. Onto the sequel. City on the Edge of Battle, along with doing everything better than its predecessor, commits to its themes and takes advantage of everything it sets up. Which is more than what can be said for most of the post-1980 Godzilla films. The direct human-monster interactions are better than what you see in the Heisei films and the finale with the Gundams is one of the more engaging "military" battles in the Godzilla series. So I disagree with the criticism that it doesn't do anything with the anime medium.

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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Living Corpse » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:18 pm

How is GITS even close to the origins of the series? GITS is about transhumanism and what line do you cross before your not consider human anymore. Gojira is about the horrors of war.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby kamilleblu » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:00 pm

It's not the themes. It's how they approach them. Both are somber, slowly paced films with minimal action that are overtly about their heavy themes. Neither can be called subtle. Transhumanism in GITS and the immediate post-war psyche in Godzilla (1954). And they also dwell on how their subject matter impacts the lives of their characters. They're closer in nature than the shoddy narratives and monster-wrestling that Godzilla has become associated with.

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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby omgitsgodzilla » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:32 am

I actually love how unconventional the trilogy has been so far; my only issue is the pace. I feel like the same ground covered in two movies or even one longer movie would've been a lot more watchable. If it were going to be two movies, I'd say the first two should be combined into one, with the Godzilla Earth reveal coming at the midpoint. If it were going to be one, I'd cut the Godzilla Filius stuff down considerably; maybe even entirely.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Gojirawars 03 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:51 am

kamilleblu wrote:
Living Corpse wrote:Stop and seriously think what does or can work in a Godzilla movie, and what doesn't or can't. There's things that haven't been done that can work in a Godzilla film that would be easier and then there's things like the concept of existential crisis (see Ghost in the Shell) that doesn't really mesh well with the kaiju genera. It might be doable, but I feel it's really hard, the closest example I can think of is Katsura's angst on being a cyborg in TOMG.

Why doesn't a Ghost in the Shell-like direction work? It's closer in nature to the origins of the series than monster wrestling. Most of the franchise is monster wrestling. Can't Toho take a short break for a limited release? Yeah, Monster Planet was a mistake. The world-building is the only thing of value in it and that could have easily been sprinkled into its sequel. Onto the sequel. City on the Edge of Battle, along with doing everything better than its predecessor, commits to its themes and takes advantage of everything it sets up. Which is more than what can be said for most of the post-1980 Godzilla films. The direct human-monster interactions are better than what you see in the Heisei films and the finale with the Gundams is one of the more engaging "military" battles in the Godzilla series. So I disagree with the criticism that it doesn't do anything with the anime medium.


But POTM is actually better than COTEOB. Because POTM was the first film, a setup film, and therefore the world-building and exposition-heavy dialogue was more acceptable. But then the sequel just rehashes the exact same plot of the last movie with a few small changes, has even less Godzilla screentime, and the exposition-heavy dialogue somehow makes this film even more slowly paced than the first. Nanometal is cool. Shame they just used it as a way to make the ending of the film basically repeat the end of POTM.

They created a great Godzilla design for both films, and the designs for Orga, Kamacuras, etc. in the flashbacks looked good. But for some reason when redesigning both Mechagodzilla and Ghidorah, two of their most popular monsters, Toho was just like, "we'll make Ghidorah look like a rejected Evangellion design, and make Mechagodzilla look like a rejected concept from a Michael Bay Transformers movie." Add insult to injury, the movie doesn't even put Mechagodzilla in it like it advertised. Just the most absolutely idiotic idea Toho has had since making Godzilla talk in Godzilla vs Gigan. Sure, make Mechagodzilla a city. Not like anybody wanted to watch the movie to see Godzilla battle Mechagodzilla.

People who are trying to defend this movie are praising it for subverting expectations and trying to do something different. Those people do not understand that about 90% of the Godzilla fan base watches Godzilla movies for one reason: monster battles. If your Godzilla movie fails to deliver even a small amount of decent action and Godzilla screen time, your Godzilla movie has failed. When a fan-made animation can outdo the actual movie it's based on, you know that's when your movie is bad. It's the same thing that people realized when Star Wars Theory was able to make a 16-minute fan film that was better than both the most recent two official Star Wars films.

What's more annoying is how they had an absolutely amazing story to work with. If they had literally just made the tie-in novels into the actual movies, they could have almost completely succeeded (just fix that Mechagodzilla design) in making a better Godzilla movie.

Well, I'm done ranting for now.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby kamilleblu » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:23 pm

Gojirawars 03 wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:
Living Corpse wrote:Stop and seriously think what does or can work in a Godzilla movie, and what doesn't or can't. There's things that haven't been done that can work in a Godzilla film that would be easier and then there's things like the concept of existential crisis (see Ghost in the Shell) that doesn't really mesh well with the kaiju genera. It might be doable, but I feel it's really hard, the closest example I can think of is Katsura's angst on being a cyborg in TOMG.

Why doesn't a Ghost in the Shell-like direction work? It's closer in nature to the origins of the series than monster wrestling. Most of the franchise is monster wrestling. Can't Toho take a short break for a limited release? Yeah, Monster Planet was a mistake. The world-building is the only thing of value in it and that could have easily been sprinkled into its sequel. Onto the sequel. City on the Edge of Battle, along with doing everything better than its predecessor, commits to its themes and takes advantage of everything it sets up. Which is more than what can be said for most of the post-1980 Godzilla films. The direct human-monster interactions are better than what you see in the Heisei films and the finale with the Gundams is one of the more engaging "military" battles in the Godzilla series. So I disagree with the criticism that it doesn't do anything with the anime medium.


But POTM is actually better than COTEOB. Because POTM was the first film, a setup film, and therefore the world-building and exposition-heavy dialogue was more acceptable. But then the sequel just rehashes the exact same plot of the last movie with a few small changes, has even less Godzilla screentime, and the exposition-heavy dialogue somehow makes this film even more slowly paced than the first. Nanometal is cool. Shame they just used it as a way to make the ending of the film basically repeat the end of POTM.

They created a great Godzilla design for both films, and the designs for Orga, Kamacuras, etc. in the flashbacks looked good. But for some reason when redesigning both Mechagodzilla and Ghidorah, two of their most popular monsters, Toho was just like, "we'll make Ghidorah look like a rejected Evangellion design, and make Mechagodzilla look like a rejected concept from a Michael Bay Transformers movie." Add insult to injury, the movie doesn't even put Mechagodzilla in it like it advertised. Just the most absolutely idiotic idea Toho has had since making Godzilla talk in Godzilla vs Gigan. Sure, make Mechagodzilla a city. Not like anybody wanted to watch the movie to see Godzilla battle Mechagodzilla.

People who are trying to defend this movie are praising it for subverting expectations and trying to do something different. Those people do not understand that about 90% of the Godzilla fan base watches Godzilla movies for one reason: monster battles. If your Godzilla movie fails to deliver even a small amount of decent action and Godzilla screen time, your Godzilla movie has failed. When a fan-made animation can outdo the actual movie it's based on, you know that's when your movie is bad. It's the same thing that people realized when Star Wars Theory was able to make a 16-minute fan film that was better than both the most recent two official Star Wars films.

What's more annoying is how they had an absolutely amazing story to work with. If they had literally just made the tie-in novels into the actual movies, they could have almost completely succeeded (just fix that Mechagodzilla design) in making a better Godzilla movie.

Well, I'm done ranting for now.

Are we still in the screen time wars? Need I remind you that Godzilla had 5 minutes in Astro-Monster? Screen time is not a direction indication of quality. It's how Godzilla is used. And I thought he had presence throughout the film and liked the battle in the third act. It doesn't fully exploit its medium. But you get editing and "camerawork" unlike what you normally see in these films. It also benefits from featuring the lead characters who were developed in a competent story (another rarity) and tying directly into an emotional climax. So I'm saying the repeated climax is actually done far better in City on the Edge of Battle. The characters are more fleshed out as well. These movies were not meant to be about the monsters. If one was not able to discern this independently, the directors have infamously admitted it. View this movie stripped from the misleading advertisement, popular conception of what Godzilla should be, and Planet of the Monsters. City on the Edge of Battle reiterates enough of the most relevant information to arguably make its predecessor unnecessary.

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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Cookson » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:38 pm

Welp this anime trilogy officially ends in just a days time now. Will be watching it Wednesday night to see how this all concludes. If Toho decides to continue Godzilla anime, they REALLY need to think it through more. I like these films as sort of a “filler” to the main live action films... so let’s keep it that if they continue to do more.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Gojirawars 03 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:43 am

kamilleblu wrote:Are we still in the screen time wars? Need I remind you that Godzilla had 5 minutes in Astro-Monster? Screen time is not a direction indication of quality.

Invasin of Astro-Monster is, in my opinion, one of the weaker Showa entries anyway. You know why? Because it has two very short fight scenes and a lot of talking. You know what makes it better than COTEOB, though? It took an interesting plot idea and actually did something unique and interesting with it. Was it executed flawlessly? Of course not. But it's still leagues better than COTEOB.
kamilleblu wrote:It's how Godzilla is used. And I thought he had presence throughout the film and liked the battle in the third act. It doesn't fully exploit its medium. But you get editing and "camerawork" unlike what you normally see in these films.

What, by giving us a shot of Godzilla's eye or just him standing around doing nothing every 30 minutes?
kamilleblu wrote:It also benefits from featuring the lead characters who were developed in a competent story (another rarity) and tying directly into an emotional climax. So I'm saying the repeated climax is actually done far better in City on the Edge of Battle. The characters are more fleshed out as well.

The characters are mostly just fleshed out through heavy dialogue, and never any sort of visual storytelling. Haruo is just like "I wanna kill Godzilla." Halfway into the movie, he basically gets a girlfriend. Then in that final "battle" (use that term loosely), the aliens with the nano-metal fetish try and take over his girlfriend. Everyone is like "oh this is a big conflict of his ideals" or something, but not really. His choice is between saving the planet or saving his sorta-girlfriend. And because he chooses his girlfriend, the Earth is even more screwed than before (in a scene that was really predictable and basically repeats the far better scene from the last movie of Godzilla Earth's first appearance).
kamilleblu wrote:These movies were not meant to be about the monsters. If one was not able to discern this independently, the directors have infamously admitted it. View this movie stripped from the misleading advertisement, popular conception of what Godzilla should be, and Planet of the Monsters. City on the Edge of Battle reiterates enough of the most relevant information to arguably make its predecessor unnecessary.

I can't overlook the fact that the movie was horridly misadvertised, and delivers basically none of what people wanted from this type of film. Again, people don't watch these films for human drama. Those parts of every Godzilla movie are considered to be the subplot of each movie. The stars of the show and the focus of the films should be the kaiju. Again, they had a really outstanding concept and universe for this series, but then proceeded to give us nearly nothing exciting and make a giant exposition dump into a movie. And on the subject of the directors, how about the way they pulled a Rian Johnson and blamed the FANS for everybody thinking the movie was garbage? Yes, it's clearly the fault of the fans, and not at all because you made the most boring Godzilla film since Godzilla Raids Again.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby kamilleblu » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:17 am

Gojirawars 03 wrote:-

What are some Godzilla movies you consider good?

Haruo's rejection of the nanometal involved a lot more than saving Yuko. Did you miss how the Bilusaludo had proven themselves untrustworthy, that the nanometal would engulf the Earth if Godzilla were killed, and when Haruo says he wants to reclaim the Earth as a human and not a machine (aka monster)?

The battle consisted of Haruo, Yuko, and Belu-be zipping around Godzilla in their Vultures and leading him into a trap. What does Godzilla normally do against military forces? Fire his beam and march towards them. Why the surprise?

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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Dv-218 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:56 am

Exactly, He charges and marches towards them. This version barely makes a little step :lol:
Is it really that hard of a task to write characters that don't make you roll your eyes every time they are on screen and having Godzilla being more prominent in the, uh, Godzilla movie? G54, Monster Zero, G84, Shin and plenty of other movies managed to do that just fine.

And imo, there are a lot of better options for animation than "jerky 3D/2D hybrid" Polygon. I don't hate the movies, I just find them boring and underwhelming compared to their full potential.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby kamilleblu » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:02 pm

Dv-218 wrote:Exactly, He charges and marches towards them. This version barely makes a little step :lol:

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Have you forgotten how big this Godzilla is? The entire planet is under his thumb and has been for thousands of years. Why would he need to move with any real urgency? ShodaiGoji and Shin Godzilla weren't the most mobile monsters either.

Dv-218 wrote:Is it really that hard of a task to write characters that don't make you roll your eyes every time they are on screen\

Why do these characters make you roll your eyes?

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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Dv-218 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

kamilleblu wrote:
Dv-218 wrote:Exactly, He charges and marches towards them. This version barely makes a little step :lol:

Image
Have you forgotten how big this Godzilla is? The entire planet is under his thumb and has been for thousands of years. Why would he need to move with any real urgency? ShodaiGoji and Shin Godzilla weren't the most mobile monsters either.

Dv-218 wrote:Is it really that hard of a task to write characters that don't make you roll your eyes every time they are on screen\

Why do these characters make you roll your eyes?


I dunno about that, Shodai was definitely capable of a decent degree of movement in 1954, and even Shin-for all of his stifness- exhibited surprising agility during the atomic breath scene, and was still a major force that moved the story forward. Anime Godzilla just feels...there.

And tbh, i'm not a fan of him being this ridiculously big either. It definitely looks impressive, but imo it's kind of too much. Whatever, different strokes for different folks I guess.

As for the characters, I already made my case over a godzillion (heh) times about how I find them annoying, unlikable and blander than bread. I guess this is another matter of personal opinion and tastes- if you don't have a problem with the plot and characters, then more power to you :)
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Grievous » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:47 am

kamilleblu wrote:Image

And now all I can think of is all the "smaller"
Godzilla's teaming up to battle Godzilla Earth.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby FlawedCoil82 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:25 am

kamilleblu wrote:Image
Have you forgotten how big this Godzilla is? The entire planet is under his thumb and has been for thousands of years. Why would he need to move with any real urgency? ShodaiGoji and Shin Godzilla weren't the most mobile monsters either.


And that is mostly why I found them both so incredibly boring! I don't care to watch a mountain with a head slowly plodding across the screen.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:05 am

The only thing I think would mildly improve the series would just be to have a bit more monster action. The servum scene in one could’ve been extended, MG still could’ve been a city but also pop in as the shown Mecha design, and some stuff in three could’ve been done better.

However, as I say this, I think doing what I’m suggesting would’ve taken a lot of focus off the trilogy’s stellar writing and plot threads. Part three works as a really skreeonking strong finished of all three films. I absolutely love it and I wouldn’t really change it.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Gojirawars 03 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:43 am

kamilleblu wrote:
Gojirawars 03 wrote:-

What are some Godzilla movies you consider good?


Well my top 5 could be considered unpopular, but they go:
5. Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla
4. Mothra vs Godzilla
3. Godzilla vs King Ghidorah
2. Godzilla vs Destroyah
1. Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla II

These are movies that I personally find both entertaining and investing. COTEOB is neither of these things. These 5 films have battles that feel like they have high stakes, and have copious amounts of entertainment value. They know when to go from characters talking to something exciting to keep the pacing going. They have characters that I can choose to care about, but don't even have to in order to enjoy the story. Because these movies realized what this movie failed to decades later: the monsters are the stars of the show. The story should focus on them and how their actions impact the rest of the world.

kamilleblu wrote:Haruo's rejection of the nanometal involved a lot more than saving Yuko. Did you miss how the Bilusaludo had proven themselves untrustworthy, that the nanometal would engulf the Earth if Godzilla were killed, and when Haruo says he wants to reclaim the Earth as a human and not a machine (aka monster)?


Sorry, must have not been paying attention to that part. Sorry if I was sick and tired of the characters having deep philosophical debates after 2 hours of the same thing, especially in the middle of this movie's only action sequence.

kamilleblu wrote:The battle consisted of Haruo, Yuko, and Belu-be zipping around Godzilla in their Vultures and leading him into a trap. What does Godzilla normally do against military forces? Fire his beam and march towards them. Why the surprise?


Because when your fight scene is nothing but 3 tiny flying robots vs. a Godzilla 3 times the normal size, you think it would end quickly. But it goes on for too long, ironically. Which is why we should've had Mechagodzilla show up during the climax to make the final battle more exciting. Besides, the Showa, Heisei, and Millenium Eras, as well as Shin and the MonsterVerse, have all pulled off the military battle far better almost every time. Why? Because they don't drag out the fight for too long, and the action is far faster-paced and invigorating. Don't make the argument that this Godzilla is too big to move quickly, either. We saw what he could do at the end of POTM. This movie is just boring, and a chore to sit through. I'd rather re-watch Godzilla's Revenge, because at least that movie is actually half-decent entertainment value. I'd use this movie to put kids to sleep. Heck, it can put adults to sleep. Toho should learn from this trilogy and use it as a good example of what NOT to do in future films.

Added in 13 minutes 44 seconds:
Gojira18 wrote:Delete the whole Anime Trilogy and make it as a 3 season Anime SERIES based on the novels
Season 1: Monster Apocalypse, but with Mechagodzilla being activated and holding off Godzilla's advance while the people escape.
Season 2: Project Mechagodzilla
Season 3: The general Anime Trilogy story, only actually good.
Have the monster designs be more traditional (NO Plant Godzilla, Star Nosed Mole Mechagodzilla, or Spaghetti Noodle Ghidorah) and actually interesting characters. Have the Planet of the Monsters actually be an ecosystem of giant monsters instead of just Godzilla. And give us actual monster action instead of MECHAGODZILLA CITY. Ugh.


This. Heccing this. THIS. This is what we should have had.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby LegendZilla » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:23 pm

You know what’s heartbreaking? With just a few tweaks here and there, this trilogy truly could’ve been some of the absolute best Godzilla films ever made.
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby Kaiju-King42 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:54 am

LegendZilla wrote:You know what’s sad? With just a few tweaks here and there, this trilogy truly could’ve been some of the best Godzilla films ever made.


I think that's why my disappointment hurts so much. Sure, critically speaking they're far from the worst.

But oh, what it could have been...
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Re: How Would You Improve the Anime Saga?

Postby ManuJM1997 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:40 am

Tbh, if you gave me control from the project from day one, I would have booted out Urobuchi (I'm sorry, but this whole clusterskreeonk was mostly he's doing) and instead, I think Chiaki J. Konaka would have been a better writer.

I love both of the series he's done. Experiments Lain is good brain-wrecking stuff, and Digimon Tamers is still one of the best deconstructions of mons and kaiju stuff I've seen in a long time.

Besides, the dude is a true fan of Lovecraft, and has even wrote some Cthulhu Mythos stories.

I have no doubts he could make a very compelling Godzilla story, full of psychological stuff and cosmic horror.

This is Konaka when pressured by executives to be somewhat child-bearing (and in the cut american version)

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